This game badly needs mods and macros.

[Colobulous]

It's funny because bad players actually think this.

 

I wouldn't say they're bad players. I'd say they are elitist people who arrogantly presume that others are less than them because of a lack of capability.

 

Which is not even necessarily true, but their own attitude, well, that does reflect on them.

 

Mastering usage of macros to outplay your opponents increases the skill of the game immensely. I'm sorry if you can't grasp that. They are tools that increase you skill, not crutches. If you cannot use mods or macros effectively then that is because you are bad.

 

I would challenge any of them to hop as well on one leg as somebody using crutches.

 

People like them forget a crutch is a valid and useful tool, and you should not be encouraging them, but calling them on it.

 

But...but...do you even realize how badly you just contradicted yourself?

 

Of course they don't.

[Kashaan]

Macros, yes. Addons... I don't believe are necessary. I wouldn't argue against purely UI customizable ones, but the UI for TOR is actually pretty good.

[Colobulous]

Wow great parenting. Way to teach your kid about commitments and using credit responsibly.

 

Indeed, you should not stick to a commitment if it is disadvantageous to you, and wasting a valid source of funds is not at all practical.

 

Oh wait, you didn't want that to be the lesson learned? For shame.

[aeterno]

I'm all for UI improvments but I hope they keep macros and addons out of TOR.

 

The current "vanilla" approach highlights player skill.

 

Stick shift > automatic.

[JMESUN]

BW can make it more modified(ui).. other then that, 3rd party crap can stay in wow. rather have everyone on same level.. and skill be determining factor not addon telling you when you should do something

[Colobulous]

Addons and macros might be nice, but I'm the sort that'd rather see the default UI expanded.

 

Without sharp limitations, addons start to define the playing field in a way that is detrimental to the game. Player skill should be the difference between success and failure in groups, not which person has an addon.

 

Why? Do you expect to provide everybody with an equally performing system as well?

 

Because that'll have just as much, if not more of an impact. At least it costs the same amount of money to have an addon...none. Getting a better system? Not even close to fair!

 

Who'd win? A tennis player with an old wodden racket, or one with nano-carbon-fiber crap? How could you be certain that the skill was the sole determinant in a competition like that?

 

Show me one competitive tennis player who would arrogantly declare "I'm going to use this crappy old wooden racket with animal intestine strings" over something more modern and effective.

 

You know why they'd switch? Because they aren't so caught up in their own pride that they think they're somehow better by refusing to use better tools.

 

Who'd win, the baseball player from the 1920s or the souped up steroid junkie of the 2000s? How could you be sure it was all in the training?

 

What you don't get is...steroids are considered unacceptable because of their side effects, not because of the performance enhancement aspects.

 

When you have one player playing with the default UI, and the second player playing with addons that suggest his next spell cast, that tell him without him having to pay attention that his CC has broken, and that the boss is about to do X move in 3 seconds, so he should move to a specific spot.. well. What's winning the encounter? The player or the addon?

 

And your particular example of an addon is representative of the sum totality of what people want? NO, it is not.

 

Figure out what people want, then understand why your examples are just strawmen.

 

The addon affects things so much that boss fights have gotten rediculously complicated merely in an attempt to offset their effects. To me, that's detrimental. To me, that virtually fosters.. nay, midwives the so-called casual/hardcore divide.

 

The casual/hardcore divide was a lot worse before addons.

[Colobulous]

I would really like to see more customization options in the game, but I would seriously hate to see this game become a SW themed WoW...

 

It is one already.

 

Perhaps the best option would be making interface elements behave like lego bricks, so you could move the main elements (minimap, chat, quest pane) to several preset locations. That could preserve interface consistency and allow for multi screen players to organize a neat centered HUD.

 

Legobricks are a lot more versatile than you think, because what you're offering isn't even Duplo level.

 

But DPS meters, BossMods, SpellAlerts destroy the authenticity of the game feel.

 

And yet...they don't represent every addon people want.

 

If you need to find the best rotation - Believe me, best theorycraft is done on paper... or just find some ElitistJerks who will tablespoon feed you with the perfect rotation.

 

Which just goes to show, you need not remove DPS meters, because it won't change a thing.

 

If you need BossMods - Learn to read visual cues from the bosses. It will make your eye sharper and reflexes better in the long run.

 

So what you're saying is...they need to make BossMods less important, by doing the things that addon does in the game already?

 

Talk about a brilliant insight that hasn't been covered numerous times already.

 

If you need Spell alerts/Buff reminders - You should learn to count to 8 or whatever you cc lasts for. With practice, you will just feel how long it lasts.

 

Many games have hotflash displays in the UI already, for a reason, so people know what's happening,a nd so the playing field is equal.

 

In a world with AddOns that play for you, the winner is the one who has the right addons and sets them better.

 

Who is saying they want bots?

 

Not me.

 

I'd like to see SWTOR a world of game skill and not macro jugglers and addon masters.

 

One skill that's important to learn, is....setting up your tools to work for you. Auto drivers know this. Baseball players do. Golf players do. Football players do. So do wrestlers and boxers. So do soldiers. Mechanics. Engineers.

 

They aren't so consumed by pride that they think they need to be a strong man without tools.

[Colobulous]

Stick shift > automatic.

 

Real life studies show the opposite tends to be true, and that people who insist on a manual transmission are often causing themselves more problems, including wasted fuel.

[Colobulous]

I suppose then, that those who come here and demand them, are the same sad sacks that ruined raiding in WoW with all the demands, and decided to migrate here, bringing their attitude problems with them, like a plague. Before moving on to yet another game to warp until it breaks.

 

 

Yes, they ruined raiding, by making people actually work to complete content, and not just slack off and laze around, what a horrible attitude, requiring performance!

 

It sure breaks games when people can't just do whatever the heck they like, but have expectations upon them!

 

Meanwhile, they post moronic crap like you just did, about how the opposition are just "baddies" (seriously, outside of gamers, only little children use the "you just suck at it" defense) because they don't need to play the game with a dozen different mods to hold your hand through every boss fight. Fights that you'll most assuredly be here complaining about to do being "too easy" and not hardcore enough, weeks later -after demanding that a mod be made to shoot fireworks into your face every time you need to get "out of the fire".

 

Have you noticed the number of anti-addon people who declare that the users of addons are bad players, that they suck?

 

But yeah, I'd like the game to show me when I'm in a fire. Wouldn't you? Or do you like invisible fires of death? There's a reason why they add chemicals to methanol and other substances that burn without being visible to human beings...why would I play a game with unseeable fields of death?

[ironix]

you talk about playing competitively as if you possess skill I don't. When the truth is, you desire systems in place to minimize as much interaction with the game as possible.

 

Nope. I never said that. I've said many times in this thread that I'd be tickled pink with mouse-over macros and some way more clearly see buffs and debuffs. That's what I personally would be able to work with at this stage.

 

However, I was arguing from the standpoint of people, such as a raid leader, who need access to more information in order to more appropriately judge the performance of his team members and not simply guess.

 

The UI definitely needs work, but the game doesn't need add ons, or mods or macros. Anyone who needs them has no business hoisting themselves above other players. For god's sake just enjoy the f****** game for what it is. These forums have enough "I'm from WoW and WoW had this I want this make it like WoW!" crap glutting the pages.

 

From what I've been reading in this thread, many people have made reasonable UI requests, the ability to have simple macros (/target <player>, mouseover, etc..), and be able to make informed decisions about a team member's performance based on real and not imagined data.

 

Unfortunately, people like you then jump all over them, accusing them of wanting SWTOR to be a WoW clone and suggesting that any form of mods or macros would be tantamount to having the game play itself for them. Is there really no middle ground? Is it really just one extreme or another?

 

I thought my contributions to this thread were reasonable. However, it seems that any suggestion that even remotely resembles something that exists in WoW is suddenly jumped upon by ravenous WoW-hating beasts.

 

Yes, we know you hate WoW, its community, gameplay, end-game, or some derivation thereof. However, that doesn't mean that just because a suggestion has an element within it that happens to exist in the WoW universe that it is automatically bad.

[Colobulous]

I have to disagree. Providing too many numbers turns the game into a number cruncher, excell-online game, instead of an semi-action RPG that it is supposed to be. We have enough with EVE to take the spreadsheet-online game types. If you have so many bars and meters as a tank, you'll end up paying more attention to those, instead of what is going on.

 

Actually, there are many people who utilize addons to reduce what they see on the screen, and only show the bars and meters they consider important, nothing more.

 

I would prefer to watch the game and react to what a mob does, instead of reacting to what a little bar with a number tells me.

 

personal preference, but I would still prefer all that stuff out. I want a game, not some kind of simulator.

 

Well, for many people, that is what they want in a game. But you are not going to get what you want in this game, they did not build it that way, and it's too late to shoehorn it in.

 

They'd have to make hits larger on the screen, show injury to mobs, and other non-numerical depictions of the things they represent with numbers now.

 

I do not see it happening now.

[rrroberts]

I'm all for UI improvments but I hope they keep macros and addons out of TOR.

 

The current "vanilla" approach highlights player skill.

 

Stick shift > automatic.

 

This is a logical fallacy. You are confusing increased difficulty with increased skill requirement, and you're also assuming increased skill requirement equals a better game. By this logic, they should remove the health bars; make players track their health mentally, that's real skill. Heck, remove the action bars entirely; keep track of those cooldowns in your head, you bad player.

 

Mods and macros are just good business sense. They extend the life and interest in the game by allowing those elements the player base dislikes to be customized to one they prefer. Also, UI elements such as a damage tracker (i.e. Recount) keep the player base interested because it allows them to track their progress against other players in a measurable way.

 

I suspect it is simply a resource issue. Either they didn't have the programmers available to devote to a customizable API, or the game can't handle it.

[SoNofHuD]

The UI needs work but it is not unplayable in the current state. I think it should be a priority for the devs to allow customization and yes at least add macros. People saying it is the worst ever and all this non-sense just need to find someting to continue whining about.

[LeggoMyMuoio]

I suppose then, that those who come here and demand them, are the same sad sacks that ruined raiding in WoW with all the demands, and decided to migrate here, bringing their attitude problems with them, like a plague. Before moving on to yet another game to warp until it breaks.

 

I love how every person who got tired of WoW is a plague to TOR. I played WoW for about 6 years and I'm really enjoying TOR right now. Sure I'd like some features from WoW in this game, but just because WoW did it and is in an obvious decline doesn't mean the feature is bad.

 

• I'd love damage meters so I can figure out how best to dps on my BH which seems to place a heavy load on managing heat.
  
• I'd love some UI mods that let me move my chat frame, resize elements, etc.
  
• I'd love macros so I can yell SHORYUKEN every time I rocket punch.
  

Obviously I don't want things like DBM in this game, but clumping all mods into one big category to help your argument is just irresponsible. BioWare also has the ability to allow or disallow whatever they want in terms of mods. They could open things up for UI customization while keeping other things out of the game. I'm just so tired of the "OMG I NEED MODS NOW" vs "NO, MODS RUIN GAMES OMG ****" responses.

[Joeythearm]

macro's are for people that can't think on the fly, panic in stressful situations and need simple things done for them,

 

Making a macro that targets your arena buddy and shields him for example. A good player can do that just as fast without thinking. A poor player needs the crutch.

 

2200 arena rating, and every raidboss downed from Attumen the hunter to Lich king, and i never made a macro for anything other than yelling random catch phrases or pulling out a random mount.

 

If you NEED macros, you are a crap player. I dont care how good you are with you macros, if you can't play the game using keybinds on the default UI, you're crap.

 

Im not comparing mods and macro's to steroids, because its not the same. Steroids actually make people play better. This would be more along the line of Morpheus telling neo where and how to go, and when to do it.

 

If you can't tell your standing in the purple stuff, the boss is changing phases, you've been CCed, or your arena partners health is very low, YOU ARE A BAD PLAYER. Macro's and addons wont fix this. They will just make you appear to be a better player.

[Scelerant]

Flytext:

 

When hit with any ability you should be able to set the flytext to give the name of the ability and the player executing it, for instance +1500 (Deliverance) [Healer Name], if hit with a debuff -700 (Electrocute) +Stunned [Caster name] and so on. The whole point of flytext is to convey information in a way that let people get it without taking their eyes of their character. If I have to look down at my buff/debuff slots to see why I'm currently rooted, then the flytext is pointless. Just showing me I took 1000 damage or got healed for X health is pointless on its own. Ideally a heal should display as Heal number (New health) (Healer Name) and so on.

 

The Flytext just shows damage and healing which means that I get very little information about that damage or healing.

 

I should be able to get detailed information about damage in, damage out, CC and debuffs applied to me, buffs applied to me and when my abilities come off CD. If I can't do that then the flytext is bad in comparison to a UI mod first made 5 years ago called "Scrolling combat text".

 

 

The Character portrait, health and resource bars:

 

It should be movable because as a keybinder I rarely if ever look at my quickslot bars. However, thanks to this horrible placement, I have to stare down at my portrait and quickslots when one of the main purposes of keybinding is that you avoid having to do that constantly. It should also be scalable.

 

The Quickslots themselves.

 

First off, I should be able to Ctrl+right click to bind to the clicked slot without having to navigate the keybinding menu in the game.

 

Secondly, I should be able to scale them and add at least a third bottom-center quickslot bar.

 

Thirdly, I should be able to put the cooldown countdown in numbers the same size of the quickslot inside the quickslot so that I can see the cool down of abilities clearly at a glance.

 

 

Summary:

 

The UI is clunky and fails in both primary functions of a UI.

 

In terms of conveying important information to the player, the flytext only shows damage in and damage out, when it should show; damage in, damage out, debuffs applied to player, abilities coming off cool downs and buffs applied to the player at the very least. For instance, if my force speed comes off CD the flytext should read "Force Speed Ready". If someone uses an electrocute on me the flytext should say "-X health, (electrocute) + Stunned+

 

It should be possible to display cool down timers inside the quick slot for an ability.

 

Feel free to call me bad because I actually like to play effectively and part of that doesn't include staring at my quick slot bars and character portrait while playing, squinting hardcore to try and see what debuff just landed on me.

 

The UI has the mark of being designed for appearance and style at a cost to functionality, since any UI designer worth their salt would have looked at what addons like Scrolling Combat text offers and replicated that into the UI. The UI designer should also have looked at the customization offered by addons like Bongos and Bartender which are far superior.

[Colobulous]

I suspect it is simply a resource issue. Either they didn't have the programmers available to devote to a customizable API, or the game can't handle it.

 

I'm hoping they just didn't have a good planner to set things up, because I see that reflected in a lot of stuff.

[Joeythearm]

pretty sure the UI as a whole is resizeable, you just cant shift different things around.

[Orvish]

I don't have TOO many complaints about the UI. I'd like to move stuff around more, and I'd kill for a Bartender type addon, but what I really need right now is "Show Target of Target" especially as a tank.

[MMOrpgPrincess]

For the life of me, I just do not understand why there are NO chat bubbles. How could they leave something like that out? Are we just supposed to watch "Barrens Chat" in the upper left-hand window scroll by at 20 point type in the hopes that someone will mention my name in the 4 seconds it takes for a new message to scroll by? It's ridiculous.

 

I also would LOVE some chat bubbles. I'm a very social player and not knowing if the person I'm speaking too even knows I said something is very frustrating!

[Joeythearm]

I also would LOVE some chat bubbles. I'm a very social player and not knowing if the person I'm speaking too even knows I said something is very frustrating!

 

Chat bubbles need to be implimented. Nobody ever sees any of the funny things I say randomly in front of them.

[Colobulous]

macro's are for people that can't think on the fly, panic in stressful situations and need simple things done for them,

 

Yes, simple, yet pointless things that are repetitive, but not challenges.

 

Making a macro that targets your arena buddy and shields him for example. A good player can do that just as fast without thinking. A poor player needs the crutch.

 

Ah, I'm sorry, I'm just not as fast as Superman, yet I won't be ashamed for that lacking on my part.

 

Did you know I also use a shaver since I don't have heat vision to trim my own beard? I use a hammer since I can't drive a nail with my thumb!

 

2200 arena rating, and every raidboss downed from Attumen the hunter to Lich king, and i never made a macro for anything other than yelling random catch phrases or pulling out a random mount.

 

And that's surely a demonstration of your own personal skill level. Wait, no, no it's not. Too many other factors to consider with your bare summary of events.

 

I'll accept that you chose to work harder. I don't give you any credit for that.

 

If you NEED macros, you are a crap player. I dont care how good you are with you macros, if you can't play the game using keybinds on the default UI, you're crap.

 

Well, it's so nice to have somebody who is so considerate and not at all judgmental. Oh wait...you are judging people.

 

Im not comparing mods and macro's to steroids, because its not the same. Steroids actually make people play better. This would be more along the line of Morpheus telling neo where and how to go, and when to do it.

 

Wow, that's a random Segue. Going from steroids to the Matrix. But no, steroids don't make you play better, they enhance some of the aspects that make it easier to play, such as muscle development and recovery.

 

If only they didn't have so many side effects, they'd probably be as acceptable as a diet program.

 

If you can't tell your standing in the purple stuff, the boss is changing phases, you've been CCed, or your arena partners health is very low, YOU ARE A BAD PLAYER. Macro's and addons wont fix this. They will just make you appear to be a better player.

 

If the game doesn't show purple stuff, if the boss has no indication of being phased, or way to conveniently display what CC you're under, or your arena partner's health..yeah, that's a problem.

 

But riddle me this, isn't a good competitor somebody who isn't so stuck up in their pride that they turn away ways to make themselves better?

 

Or am I mistaken, and a race car driver ought to get an old junker instead?

[SunwindIon]

I don't know what I can do to improve my gameplay, but I generally can only use 1-5 as hotkeys, anything further is too far away for my little fingers, I am trying to use R and F for other spells too but in the heat of combat when you're mashing away at 1-5 it's hard to remember from memory where R and F is unless you have your fingers on WASD (which they're not because you're hitting 1-5 keys) so it's really hard for me to use a lot of abilities.. I don't know how i'm going to compete in PVP when I have to click most of my abilities.

[ironix]

Flytext:

 

When hit with any ability you should be able to set the flytext to give the name of the ability and the player executing it, for instance +1500 (Deliverance) [Healer Name], if hit with a debuff -700 (Electrocute) +Stunned [Caster name] and so on. The whole point of flytext is to convey information in a way that let people get it without taking their eyes of their character. If I have to look down at my buff/debuff slots to see why I'm currently rooted, then the flytext is pointless. Just showing me I took 1000 damage or got healed for X health is pointless on its own. Ideally a heal should display as Heal number (New health) (Healer Name) and so on.

 

The Flytext just shows damage and healing which means that I get very little information about that damage or healing.

 

I should be able to get detailed information about damage in, damage out, CC and debuffs applied to me, buffs applied to me and when my abilities come off CD. If I can't do that then the flytext is bad in comparison to a UI mod first made 5 years ago called "Scrolling combat text".

 

 

The Character portrait, health and resource bars:

 

It should be movable because as a keybinder I rarely if ever look at my quickslot bars. However, thanks to this horrible placement, I have to stare down at my portrait and quickslots when one of the main purposes of keybinding is that you avoid having to do that constantly. It should also be scalable.

 

The Quickslots themselves.

 

First off, I should be able to Ctrl+right click to bind to the clicked slot without having to navigate the keybinding menu in the game.

 

Secondly, I should be able to scale them and add at least a third bottom-center quickslot bar.

 

Thirdly, I should be able to put the cooldown countdown in numbers the same size of the quickslot inside the quickslot so that I can see the cool down of abilities clearly at a glance.

 

 

Summary:

 

The UI is clunky and fails in both primary functions of a UI.

 

In terms of conveying important information to the player, the flytext only shows damage in and damage out, when it should show; damage in, damage out, debuffs applied to player, abilities coming off cool downs and buffs applied to the player at the very least. For instance, if my force speed comes off CD the flytext should read "Force Speed Ready". If someone uses an electrocute on me the flytext should say "-X health, (electrocute) + Stunned+

 

It should be possible to display cool down timers inside the quick slot for an ability.

 

Feel free to call me bad because I actually like to play effectively and part of that doesn't include staring at my quick slot bars and character portrait while playing, squinting hardcore to try and see what debuff just landed on me.

 

The UI has the mark of being designed for appearance and style at a cost to functionality, since any UI designer worth their salt would have looked at what addons like Scrolling Combat text offers and replicated that into the UI. The UI designer should also have looked at the customization offered by addons like Bongos and Bartender which are far superior.

 

Thank you for that addition. I agree on every point you made.

[Runarc]

WoW arena wouln't have been half as epic without mods/macros as it was.

 

the simple truth is that correct macro use at the right time increases the possible reactions to any given situation from a player.

 

Try playing a hunter without any macros, an one with. See which is best utilized by a capable player.