Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)

[Elear]

2) ravage/master strike are AoE attacks, and carnage spec can spread bleeds very quickly.

 

Marauders have spammable, no cooldown, low rage cost AOEs with the standard spec.

 

3 rage is low, Master Strike is AoE, Carnage uses bleeds, interesting things I'm learning here.

[Ahebish]

I love how you state stop spreading misinformation guys, BUT operatives are not within 5% of marauders (who do 1500). Lol ok, waltz over to the sentinel thread and look through all those parses (granted, we don't know the skill levels of the players); however, most fell within the 1100-1200 range with the highest being around maybe 1400? I've seen several operatives already post pics of them hitting 1300-1400; I'm pretty sure that's within 5% of the marauder. Maybe with bloodthirst on a 1 minute test a marauder can hit 1500, but bloodthirst gets normalized in operations (so a bad thing to involve in a target dummy test).

 

Anyhow, I'm going to run some parses on my operative and marauder later tonight (granted my marauder has much better gear) to quantify the differences for myself.

 

Soooo

 

Start doing duel parses?

 

Marauder vs operative?

 

So after operative might drop your HP to 50% and you drop our full HP bar + 35% PVP heal. Then say it's within 5%.

 

I don't recall George Z saying anything like my signature about marauders do you?

 

I don't recall your class getting nerf'd 5 times in a row do you?

Edited April 22, 2012 by Ahebish

[Ryemfoh]

Soooo

 

Start doing duel parses?

 

Marauder vs operative?

 

So after operative might drop your HP to 50% and you drop our full HP bar + 35% PVP heal. Then say it's within 5%.

 

I don't recall George Z saying anything like my signature about marauders do you?

 

I don't recall your class getting nerf'd 5 times in a row do you?

 

I thought you'd left

 

To pursue your love of haiku

 

Elsewhere

 

(Apologies to all genuine poets out there)

[Bazzoong]

^^ I think I love you.

[Kaijan]

3 rage is low, Master Strike is AoE, Carnage uses bleeds, interesting things I'm learning here.

 

My mistake. However, I'd greatly appreciate constructive comments in this thread, rather than antagonistic ones. Passive agressive and derisive comments aren't helping anyone.

[kerplunkish]

http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-04-19_12_47_45_913725.txt

 

1458 DPS - sup

[Furiasara]

http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-04-19_12_47_45_913725.txt

 

1458 DPS - sup

 

Not really fair since you had a marauder buffing you =P

[Powderhorn]

http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-04-22_14_19_38_337806.txt#17_52_38_520000

 

This is a parse from a Hard Mode KP. Of note is the last Karagga fight, where my DPS was floating around 970, using the Freighter Flyby extensively.

[Masturomenos]

Dummies are for rotations only. You must have both dummies to even get close to accurate results. I can make my dps go up on a dummy by swapping all accuracy mods for dps mods and using a pvp dummy then acting like my dps went up because the pvp dummy doesnt require you to be hit capped to hit and thats just one example out of multiple ones as to why u need both dummies to even come close to semi accurate ueful results.

[Kaijan]

Dummies are for rotations only. You must have both dummies to even get close to accurate results. I can make my dps go up on a dummy by swapping all accuracy mods for dps mods and using a pvp dummy then acting like my dps went up because the pvp dummy doesnt require you to be hit capped to hit and thats just one example out of multiple ones as to why u need both dummies to even come close to semi accurate ueful results.

 

That...doesn't make any sense.

[kerplunkish]

dummies are for rotations only. You must have both dummies to even get close to accurate results. I can make my dps go up on a dummy by swapping all accuracy mods for dps mods and using a pvp dummy then acting like my dps went up because the pvp dummy doesnt require you to be hit capped to hit and thats just one example out of multiple ones as to why u need both dummies to even come close to semi accurate ueful results.

 

 

lol what?

[Ryemfoh]

Not really fair since you had a marauder buffing you =P

 

In WoW, Theorycrafting is always done with full raid buffs on a fully raid debuffed target - since these all effect different classes / abilities in different ways.

[Ahebish]

In WoW, Theorycrafting is always done with full raid buffs on a fully raid debuffed target - since these all effect different classes / abilities in different ways.

 

Which is also why I used to lol at raid geared mages, and hunters after I destroyed them in raid DPS on my feral kitty while wearing PVP gear.

 

People asked me what my DPS was... well my DPS was 19k single target. They would laugh. Then I would ask them what theirs was, and they would say oh I'm usually 50-80k. I said oh wow that's awesome... Are you in a group or raid group when you get those numbers?

 

All of the sudden they stop talking me when I tell them it's 19k by myself without a group or buffs single target on a raid boss.

 

But if raid parsing matters that much to people, I've broke 90k on my feral kitty and of course it was over a 30 second duration with PVP gear.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Ahebish

[Ryemfoh]

But if raid parsing matters that much to people, I've broke 90k on my feral kitty and of course it was over a 30 second duration with PVP gear.

 

The reason why group and target buffing is done for the baseline is because it is a reasonable assumption that you will have those buffs in Operations and in organised PVP.

 

The reason for any dummy tests is to set the "ideal fight" value which you can then use as a target, and to analyse how badly you messed up and/or how much various raid mechanics effected your performance (e.g. movement phases / boss immunity / etc). This is particularly valuable information for those advocating class changes along the lines of a gap closer since it will easily highlight how much worse Operatives do relative to every other melee class in movement fights (if indeed we are significantly behind)

[Qiola]

Hello everyone, that will be my first post on these forums ever.

First of all I wanted to say that this thread is very useful and them parses must keep coming, that helps a lot.

 

I always wanted to play IA and actually did that... until we started raiding. Then I rerolled marauder.

Some time passed, 1.2 came and everyone is rerolling marauder. I started to miss my agent, so I took her from that dusty shelf where she was doing biochem only and decided to see what I can do.

 

My gear is like that:

- Columi almost everything

- Rakata bracers and belt

- Augmented [Endowment] crafted Earpiece and Implants (the ones reversed to purple from 49 greens)

- Matrix Cube + Relic with 300 Power on use

- Orange rifle with 23 Barrel from dailys and 22 Crit/Surge mods

 

Had all class DPS buffs, used Adrenal and Relic during fight. Can't say I did everything perfect, but was good enough I suppose.

 

Parses:

 

Link One

For some reason it splitted log in four pieces, but it's same fight, screenshot below with MOX Parser can confirm that

http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq186/eolyn08/Operative.jpg

 

I've been hitting that dummy for a while, used diferent parsers (ACT aswell, which shows slightly more DPS), results are quite similiar so I've picked fight which was long enough.

 

I'm using this spec (1/2 Incisive Action for applying Stim Boost before fight starts)

Edited April 23, 2012 by Qiola

[Ryemfoh]

Link One

For some reason it splitted log in four pieces, but it's same fight, screenshot below with MOX Parser can confirm that

http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq186/eolyn08/Operative.jpg

 

Thanks for this - moar data! The reason it's splitting the log is because you're vanish-HS'ing (which is good, but it confuses the log parser since you exit combat for that second)

 

Is there a way to view the ability breakdown in more detail? It would really help to see the number of backstabs / lacerates / average damage values / etc

[Qiola]

The reason it's splitting the log is because you're vanish-HS'ing (which is good, but it confuses the log parser since you exit combat for that second)

Right! Should've guess, ty

 

Is there a way to view the ability breakdown in more detail? It would really help to see the number of backstabs / lacerates / average damage values / etc

Sure, imported log in ACT and merged it, here are screenies:

Abilities

DPS curve

Shiv recast rate

Backstab recast rate

[Ryemfoh]

Right! Should've guess, ty

 

Sure, imported log in ACT and merged it, here are screenies:

Abilities

DPS curve

Shiv recast rate

Backstab recast rate

 

Hmm ... looks like I should download ACT - that's some really useful info thanks! The only thing it doesn't seem to do well is split the poison ticks from Acid Blade and Corrosive Dart.

[VulcanLogic]

You guys really should try testing your DPS with someone providing the armor debuff. It's about an 80 DPS increase for operatives.

[Kaijan]

You guys really should try testing your DPS with someone providing the armor debuff. It's about an 80 DPS increase for operatives.

 

Which doesn't really help find the baseline for Operative DPS while solo. It's why the guy that had the berserker buff isn't helpful.

[VulcanLogic]

Which doesn't really help find the baseline for Operative DPS while solo. It's why the guy that had the berserker buff isn't helpful.

 

DPS is balanced around having all ops buffs, someone providing an armor debuff, and someone else providing berserking/inspiration. Parsing that is helpful. DPS is not balanced around one class with its solo buffs and a vendor stim. I'm sorry but it isn't. Without accounting for full ops buffs, you don't know how well (or how poorly) it will scale.

Edited April 25, 2012 by VulcanLogic

[Kaijan]

DPS is balanced around having all raid buffs, someone providing an armor debuff, and someone else providing berserking/inspiration. Parsing that is helpful. DPS is not balanced around one class with its solo buffs and a vendor stim. I'm sorry but it isn't.

 

I merely mean that a baseline has potentially more value than figuring out the overall DPS in an operation. Primarily because you might not have berserker/inspiration, or an armor debuff.

 

I'm not arguing that it isn't important to see the difference, just that a baseline is more valuable imo.

[VulcanLogic]

Well, I do see where you are coming from, but on my sniper, I have all the legacy class buffs and a way to debuff armor myself. I come out 200 DPS ahead of my balance shadow on the dummy (shadow is different server and has no legacy buffs from other classes yet). But in a full operations environment, my shadow comes in only about 50 DPS behind on the actual raid bosses, and it'd be even closer if we had a Sentinel for Inspiration. It's why I'm suggesting that as a better method, at least until there's enough data for the spreadsheets and sims to show what the DPS would be when buffed. Edited April 25, 2012 by VulcanLogic

[Fallenturtle]

and it'd be even closer if we had a Sentinel for Inspiration. .

 

I just want to point out a key point in your logic. in the typical 8 man raid, you have 4 slots for dps with the new raid system. You are almost NEVER going to have the mob fully debuffed, or have the right group buff makeup outside of class buffs gained from legacy and stims. Groups are never going to be perfect. like our rotations. Why plan for the ideal situations when the ideal situations only happen once in a blue moon.

To fully debuff a mob and give the group buffs you need:

Juggernaut(either dps or tank) *armor debuff*

Mercenary(dps)*armor debuff*

Marauder(dps)*bloodlust*

Sniper(dps)*armor debuff*

 

 

3/4 classes ARE strictly dps. Then there's adding in group utility as a factor. If we go in a raid, we HAVE little to no utility that a healing class can't provide themselves. The point to make is they either need to A)give us more utility so we can fill in that last spot in the ideal makeup, or B) increase our damage so that it benefits from the non-ideal environment, and increased tremendously in the ideal environment. It also couldn't hurt to increase our melee survivability and give us a closing mechanism.

[KyoMamoru]

Parse + Gear Shot: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/stuff/OperativeDPS.jpg

Damage Graph: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/stuff/longgraph.jpg

Log: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/stuff/keitsudpslog.txt

 

I didn't have the Sorc Buff so it is somewhat lower than it should have been. There were a few mistakes as well, as you'll see on the long graph where my dps dropped due to me getting distracted. I also did not break Combat every two minutes to get a Hidden Strike. I'm still using a BM rifle, Ears, and Implants.