Let's STOP the spread of misinformation about operative DPS (high OR low!)

[Fallenturtle]

Then, here's to counter the devs argument that dual wielding is giving misinformation..

 

Copied over from sithwarrior.com. This is a dps jugg. No offhand into this equasion.

 

"For your Amusement/Information, a (kinda) technical look at how the Vengeance Juggernaut, how it works for me Smile

 

I am missing one Rakata Item, no new trousers for me Sad, and I just logged my raid last night, Nightmare Karaggas Palace and Eternity Vault. I was Raiding in 4/32/5.

 

For those that are curious about my Jugger

 

And the Log, maybe a little cramped, i did not clean it up and my rotation is not always perfect, but it works for me.

 

First entry in the log is a ~6 min dummy test drive (raidbuffed, Power Stimmed and with Power adrenalin), I took 6 Min because thats the length of a nm Bossfight. Afterwards some random Tatooine Action Big Grin. The first Bossfight starts at 19:40.

 

Oh and I should say I prioritize Ravage over everything, except Sunder Armor & Saber Throw (Rage can be a *****, so "gainer" before "drainer" if you will). Second most important is Shatter, the dot does insane amounts of damage and the first hit is as high as Force Scream, which comes afterwards, + you get the Crit buff for it. And fourth is my beloved Impale. Below 30% i try to "execute" as much as possible with a crit buffed Vicious Throw, special thanks to Savagery" His stats are http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/6818feae-65ca-45f1-bd1a-201d067b8737

and the logs are http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-04-17_16_23_42_260131.txt#16_26_27_560000

 

 

Now, tell me again that offhand attacks are bumping up DPS on a training dummy when a dps jugg does more than the highest offical dps we've seen on this thread.

[Glorionn]

For those that are curious about other Classes. I have a 10 minute parse (was asked to do this, so RNG had less effect, I also have 3 minute parses, and 5 minute parses), that has me doing 1300 DPS as a commando. Full rakata. Adrenal, rakata stim.

 

I have been constantly trying to stimulate rational discourse within the community, and we see numbers from 1100-1400.

 

http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-04-18_15_33_45_359219.txt#17_40_14_819000

[Errdizzy]

Updated my post on previous page with more logs.

[KyoMamoru]

I currently have both a Rakata geared Operative, and a somewhat Rakata geared Juggernaut, and despite having a lesser weapon/gear [Rakata vs Columi] the Juggernaut outputs the exact same level of damage as my operative on the Operation's Dummy of 1200-1250 pending lucky crit strings, or starving for a Ravage Proc. With that said, the rotation of the Juggernaut never feels hectic. When dpsing as the Operative I need to:

 

0) Stay behind my target.

1) Maintain one TA at all times.

2) Not let my energy decay beyond my ability to regenerate.

3) Keep Stimboost up at all times.

4) Keep Poison Dart up at all times.

5) Keep track of timer for Lacerate to refund TA cost.

 

Compared to my Juggernaut, where I'm mostly just making sure to cast Ravage when I get the proc for it. The rage builds with little effort, and I never feel starved, or dig into a hole. I'm also providing a debuff to the target for my entire raid to DPS higher, compared to the Operative which does not add anything. Between Enraged Defense [15% Damage Reduction + Heal of 3% per attack], and Saber Ward, I can stay in during most AOEs from an Operation Boss; however due to the fact I don't have to worry about positioning, it's infinitely easier for me to avoid the AOEs with Charge and Intercede.

 

I've more or less decided that my Operative will remain in Heal Spec [my main function for it for my guild anyways], and my Juggernaut will fulfill any necessary DPS roles. I've always felt that positional DPS should be rewarded greater for the need to constantly move since their up time is dramatically reduced in most fights.

Edited April 20, 2012 by KyoMamoru

[Kabaal]

Then, here's to counter the devs argument that dual wielding is giving misinformation..

 

Copied over from sithwarrior.com. This is a dps jugg. No offhand into this equasion.

 

"For your Amusement/Information, a (kinda) technical look at how the Vengeance Juggernaut, how it works for me Smile

 

I am missing one Rakata Item, no new trousers for me Sad, and I just logged my raid last night, Nightmare Karaggas Palace and Eternity Vault. I was Raiding in 4/32/5.

 

For those that are curious about my Jugger

 

And the Log, maybe a little cramped, i did not clean it up and my rotation is not always perfect, but it works for me.

 

First entry in the log is a ~6 min dummy test drive (raidbuffed, Power Stimmed and with Power adrenalin), I took 6 Min because thats the length of a nm Bossfight. Afterwards some random Tatooine Action Big Grin. The first Bossfight starts at 19:40.

 

Oh and I should say I prioritize Ravage over everything, except Sunder Armor & Saber Throw (Rage can be a *****, so "gainer" before "drainer" if you will). Second most important is Shatter, the dot does insane amounts of damage and the first hit is as high as Force Scream, which comes afterwards, + you get the Crit buff for it. And fourth is my beloved Impale. Below 30% i try to "execute" as much as possible with a crit buffed Vicious Throw, special thanks to Savagery" His stats are http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/6818feae-65ca-45f1-bd1a-201d067b8737

and the logs are http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-04-17_16_23_42_260131.txt#16_26_27_560000

 

 

Now, tell me again that offhand attacks are bumping up DPS on a training dummy when a dps jugg does more than the highest offical dps we've seen on this thread.

 

The dummies not being able to defend the attacks should be taken into account for a single saber user too, you haven't proved anything.

[Elear]

Now, tell me again that offhand attacks are bumping up DPS on a training dummy when a dps jugg does more than the highest offical dps we've seen on this thread.

 

Offhands don't bump up damage on dummy becuse class that don't use them still can do huge damage?

 

That makes sense!

Edited April 20, 2012 by Elear

[QuiJonPed]

http://i40.tinypic.com/11sihcm.jpg

 

http://i39.tinypic.com/doq7ut.jpg

 

I'm calling photoshop on this one. We all know SW:ToR is dying, yet you have over two hundred people in fleet.

 

[Zormarius]

This is parsed data, lots of it. All from Explosive Conflicts. Pay attention to the Duration of each fight.

 

DPS - 8 Man Runs (Some parses are old ones)

Mithran(Marauder) - Experienced

Mycroft(Sniper) - Experienced

Vagrant(Power Tech) - Experienced

Korvan(Assassin) - Noob

Lolzmechanic(Assassin) - Experienced

Teioh(Most times he was tanking, Juggernaught) - Experienced

 

Healers

Carassana(Operative)

Boze(Sorc)

 

Tanks

JohnChache

Pitz

Teioh

Lolzmechanic

 

Parser Data

Edited April 20, 2012 by Zormarius

[Mortix]

I'm calling photoshop on this one. We all know SW:ToR is dying, yet you have over two hundred people in fleet.

 

 

we also have a queue every evening

[Sookster]

The more I pvp as concealment, the more I notice that backstab is doing more damage than hidden strike, for experiment I just used backstab for a few WZ's instead of hidden strike- resolve bar doesn't fill up as quickly, I kill a tad faster especially when doing AB+backstab and I have a tad more energy to spare. The RNG damage range on HS and backstab are huge, sometimes I HS someone for 1100 damage and another for 4500, same goes for backstab but I have yet to go below 2500 on backstab whereas HS barely squeaks by 1K vs some players. Edited April 20, 2012 by Sookster

[thecoffeeguy]

The more I pvp as concealment, the more I notice that backstab is doing more damage than hidden strike, for experiment I just used backstab for a few WZ's instead of hidden strike- resolve bar doesn't fill up as quickly, I kill a tad faster especially when doing AB+backstab and I have a tad more energy to spare. The RNG damage range on HS and backstab are huge, sometimes I HS someone for 1100 damage and another for 4500, same goes for backstab but I have yet to go below 2500 on backstab whereas HS barely squeaks by 1K vs some players.

 

I noticed the same thing on my scoundrel. Shoot FIrst damage varies greatly, where as back blast is fairly consistent. For example, I have seen the following numbers with shoot first:

 

900-2700

 

Where as back blast is usually between, 2200-2900.

Granted, im not yet 50.

 

Prior to 1.2, my shoot first numbers were much closer to what they are now. I feel like there were additional "under the hood" changes to shoot first/hidden strike.

[Scorchy]

Full Rakata, Black Hole earpiece on my Scoundrel with Concealment (Scrapper) spec:

 

http://i.imgur.com/lgafn.jpg

 

On a 7.5 minute parse I'm seeing what everyone else is seeing. Around 950-1100 DPS normal, with stims/relics/adrenals, playing absolutely perfect and behind the target, you can get near or a bit over 1200 DPS:

 

http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-04-21_00_51_01_279583offff.txt

 

I've been telling people to stay away from leveling a scoundrel for now if they don't want to heal. Meanwhile here's a parse from a Sentinel/Marauder on a Nightmare Karagga fight: http://loganalyzer.blacksheeptroopers.com/stats/35135/showfgt. Yup. 1742 DPS over 5 minutes on a real fight, with dodge and deflect. Within 5% my butt.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Scorchy

[Xaearth]

The dummies not being able to defend the attacks should be taken into account for a single saber user too, you haven't proved anything.

 

Offhands don't bump up damage on dummy becuse class that don't use them still can do huge damage?

 

That makes sense!

 

I think you both missed the implication of the dev's post.

 

The reason he specifically picked out dual wielders is because they get a significant penalty to hit chance on their offhand.

 

In other words: Marauders/Sentinels cannot get their offhand to 100% guaranteed hit against a target with any form of defense.

 

Compare that to main-hand attacks, which everyone and their noob grandma has enough accuracy at end game to overcome the base defense chance, and you might understand what that poster was getting at.

 

IMO, this hints at a far deeper problem that I have had suspicions about for some time:

The "metrics" the devs use assumes accuracy and defense are being used in such a way that would be consistent with a playerbase that viewed the two stats as "useful" and/or "meaningful/significant".

 

In other words, it doesn't matter that the metagame gives a womp rat's behind about accuracy past 110% because no one is stacking defense, the metrics "work" when the system is used "properly", and our refusal to do so is not the dev team's problem.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Xaearth

[silvershadez]

Any lethality (dirty fighting) parses yet? Would love to see that DPS too.

[Malanoth]

So, a player blows the Dev dual wield versus training dummy argument out the window... and then I see logs of Op dps that is way more than 5% below what other classes do. So Op DPS sucks then? I'm gearing up full BM through PvP on my Op before I start doing PvE. Does our DPS suck that much that we should go healer?

[babykahna]

im interested to see any lethality/dirty fighting parsers to see if there is any dps difference from concealment which got nerfed. After all the devs said that the "nerfs" to concealment would help with pve damage even if it means less burst in pvp but what im finding is alot of gap filling attacks between knife attacks that hardly do worthwhile damage.

 

As a concealment pve spec 3/31/7, i'm pulling 1000-1100+ or if crit gods favor, 1200+ dps on bosses like toth in hard mode 16 where as a melee class i stick on that boss full time. I'm fully rakata geared, augmented weapon, random black hole pieces here and there, 39.56% crit chance unbuffed and 74.85% surge. so while im seeing my fellow guildie marauder pull 480-500k damage at the end of the fight on parsers, i'm pulling roughly 130-160k less damage than the marauder. Thats hardly a 5 % gap for me to get over. And yes i've played my class a very long time so i know my rotations in order to give me as much energy as possible throughout the entire fight.

 

So if anyone could link some lethality parsers, that would be of much interest thanks!

 

And as for the topic itself, whatever the dev said about marauder dps not being accurate on training dummies...come on...thats such a weak reply. I've seen hundreds of parsers over and over again for many raids. The only thing I can definitively say is that nearly every class can outdps an operative's dps. To be an operative dpser you pretty much need to be perfect with your rotations...and even so with all the game mechanics, it gets disrupted easily. Personally I believe that the fix needed for operative dps lies in their cooldowns and energy costs...

[Elear]

I think you both missed the implication of the dev's post.

 

The reason he specifically picked out dual wielders is because they get a significant penalty to hit chance on their offhand.

 

In other words: Marauders/Sentinels cannot get their offhand to 100% guaranteed hit against a target with any form of defense.

 

Compare that to main-hand attacks, which everyone and their noob grandma has enough accuracy at end game to overcome the base defense chance, and you might understand what that poster was getting at. :rolleyes

 

Not really. If you pop by Gunslinger forums you may notice few threads comparing two blasters vs sniper rifle. Conclusion is like that: below 100% snipers deal more damage, at similar, above GS are better. In other words - accuracy is quite important stat for classes with DW.

If you take Sniper and GS(going away from Mara/Sent becasue there is no mirror without dw), pump them both full of power and leave out accuracy, in real-life situation they would do similar damage, with sniper slightly ahead. But on dummy, everyone gets bonus accuracy to cap them for all their attacks. In Sniper case, it's 10%. For GS, it's 33%. Obviously in case they do have some accuracy already bonus is smaller, still, DW classes almost always get bonus stats on dummy. And this inflates their stat budget, and damage as a result.

 

What Dev said: DW classes gain huge benefit from attacking target that cannot defend, so their damage will be inflated.

What poster said: Not true, here is example of class without DW doing huge damage.

 

Other words

Dev: This man has sharp stick and may kill you

Poster: Not true, that man has blunt stick and still kills you

 

DW is giving misinformation - higher damage than really possible. You can't counter this by showing that class without DW can also reach such damage.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Elear

[Malanoth]

Not really. If you pop by Gunslinger forums you may notice few threads comparing two blasters vs sniper rifle. Conclusion is like that: below 100% snipers deal more damage, at similar, above GS are better. In other words - accuracy is quite important stat for classes with DW.

If you take Sniper and GS(going away from Mara/Sent becasue there is no mirror without dw), pump them both full of power and leave out accuracy, in real-life situation they would do similar damage, with sniper slightly ahead. But on dummy, everyone gets bonus accuracy to cap them for all their attacks. In Sniper case, it's 10%. For GS, it's 33%. Obviously in case they do have some accuracy already bonus is smaller, still, DW classes almost always get bonus stats on dummy. And this inflates their stat budget, and damage as a result.

 

What Dev said: DW classes gain huge benefit from attacking target that cannot defend, so their damage will be inflated.

What poster said: Not true, here is example of class without DW doing huge damage.

 

Other words

Dev: This man has sharp stick and may kill you

Poster: Not true, that man has blunt stick and still kills you

 

DW is giving misinformation - higher damage than really possible. You can't counter this by showing that class without DW can also reach such damage.

 

I get what you're saying and its all very well and all, but lets forget about training dummies for a moment. Looking at the LIVE parses (not just here) and taking into account Operative mechanic restrictions (must be behind target for BS, etc) that affect our DPS aren't you seeing quite a large disparity in the DPS spread? I feckin am.

[MadUlk]

Any lethality (dirty fighting) parses yet? Would love to see that DPS too.

 

There you go. http://www.torparse.com/a/10570?q=MXwxMDU3MHg4MDE1NjI5MGE4MDE1NzkzNHgx

 

I was unbuffed, in full Rakata, using this spec.

I fell below 60 energy several times, used Adrenalin Probe once and wasted between 3 to 5 TA's due to me using Shiv to late.

[Kaijan]

What Dev said: DW classes gain huge benefit from attacking target that cannot defend, so their damage will be inflated.

What poster said: Not true, here is example of class without DW doing huge damage.

 

Actually, he's not arguing that DW isn't giving misinformation at all. He's just saying that the damage discrepancy has very little to do with it as classes without dual wield are still doing significantly more damage than an operative. You're arguing two very different points.

[babykahna]

There you go. http://www.torparse.com/a/10570?q=MXwxMDU3MHg4MDE1NjI5MGE4MDE1NzkzNHgx

 

I was unbuffed, in full Rakata, using this spec.

I fell below 60 energy several times, used Adrenalin Probe once and wasted between 3 to 5 TA's due to me using Shiv to late.

 

good to see a lethality parse. lethality is definitely more useful for bosses which require alot of movement.

 

after looking at your log, i did a solo parse on the dummy in the same time frame and found that even though i was rushing to do the parse and my rotations were off at times, i could still pull roughly 1.2-1.3k dps unbuffed etc etc..problem of course is that in a real boss fight, that number would be significantly lower because of all the movement. whereas lethality would stay roughly the same or higher.

[Errdizzy]

Well before I officially give up on DPS I decided to remod all of my gear to CRIT and see how it affected my DPS. Here is the gear setup:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq3CFXK6ukeGdFRoaHJlZmk2RER6b24wMjFCWmJMdlE

 

And this was the results (test 5 times for an average):

http://www.torparse.com/a/10758 (1183 DPS)

http://www.torparse.com/a/10759 (1203 DPS)

http://www.torparse.com/a/10762 (1157 DPS)

http://www.torparse.com/a/10763 (1164 DPS)

http://www.torparse.com/a/10804 (1205 DPS)

AVERAGE DPS= 1182

 

As you can see swapping out 6 mods/enhancements in favor of crit pretty much did NOTHING to change my DPS from the previous results I posted with stock Rakata gear (whch is about half crit/half power). Once I get another half-million credits I will switch my mods to POWER for comparison....

 

*NOTE: I am using Concealment spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401ocZGhModdRdGRZhM0z.1

Edited April 21, 2012 by Errdizzy

[Drewhat]

Does the sent/Mara have the same aoe capability as the scoundrel/op? In FPs with bosses+ adds the XS flyby would be über valuable. Also what does the sent mara have that compares with the armor pen debuff of the scoundrel? Doesn't that contribute?

 

More tests with scrappers with whole group compiled parses vs Mara/sents would be useful as well.

[Kaijan]

Does the sent/Mara have the same aoe capability as the scoundrel/op? In FPs with bosses+ adds the XS flyby would be über valuable. Also what does the sent mara have that compares with the armor pen debuff of the scoundrel? Doesn't that contribute?

 

More tests with scrappers with whole group compiled parses vs Mara/sents would be useful as well.

 

1) We get an armor pen buff, not a debuff, which doesn't assist the raid/group at all. Marauders get a group buff that increases damage and healing significantly for the duration. Also, some have abilities that ignore armor.

2) Marauders have AoE attacks as well (without the 1min cooldown/3sec cast), and annihilation spec can spread bleeds very quickly.

 

In any case, FPs aren't really all that important. Any class can be very successful in a FP. We're primarily discussing Operations, and bosses there generally don't have adds that clump enough for AoE to matter (some exceptions).

Edited April 22, 2012 by Kaijan
Whoops; mis-stated which spec uses bleeds and which ability AoEs; my bad

[Furiasara]

Does the sent/Mara have the same aoe capability as the scoundrel/op? In FPs with bosses+ adds the XS flyby would be über valuable. Also what does the sent mara have that compares with the armor pen debuff of the scoundrel? Doesn't that contribute?

 

More tests with scrappers with whole group compiled parses vs Mara/sents would be useful as well.

 

Marauders have spammable, no cooldown, low rage cost AOEs with the standard spec. Lets them dramatically out DPS us in aoe situations, even considering orbital strike/flyby.

 

Also, the armor pen from acid blade is self only, it doesn't benefit anyone but the operative/scoundrel.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Furiasara