Really Bioware? REALLY?!!

[Karkais]

I keep hearing the "you are breaking the law, that's an evil act" responce.

 

Breaking the law is not evil. When someone goes 1 mile over the speed limit, is that an evil act? people all over the world break laws and don't even know it... is that evil? Did u know having sex totally nakid in Florida is against the law. It's actually on the books... are all these couple evil?

 

What I more compelling is how you turn the senator that took the money from a crime boss, and double crossed him. Used the money to do good. If you don't expose her you get DS points.

 

But exposing a senator that is collaborating with the enemy (treason) is DS points... Makes no sense to me.

 

Yes it is because you are ignoring all the other people who endeavoured to have those laws created in the first place. Breaking the law is selfish. Thats a pretty Sith thing.

 

You arent supposed to be the judge. Thinking that you know better than all those others is extremely selfish.

 

ps. Note that you dont actually have any proof of the wrongdoings in the quest, you just take that persons word for it.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Karkais

[jhartel]

Yes it is because you are ignoring all the other people who endeavoured to have those laws created in the first place. Breaking the law is selfish.

 

So if I broke an evil dictator's law, am I evil?

[Kailthir]

Yes it is because you are ignoring all the other people who endeavoured to have those laws created in the first place. Breaking the law is selfish. Thats a pretty Sith thing.

 

You arent supposed to be the judge. Thinking that you know better than all those others is extremely selfish.

 

ps. Note that you dont actually have any proof of the wrongdoings in the quest, you just take that persons word for it.

 

Selfish maybe but not evil. So not exposing the traitorous senator is ok. Treason is fine.. What about that law? The senator is colaborating with the enemy of the republic... that alone shoud warrent his exposure.

 

Oh and how about Obi-Wan and Yoda and the jedi that survived order 66. They were labeled as traitors. Were they evil. After all being a jedi was then outlawed.

 

You see good and evil aren't so black and white. There is alot of grey area. To the western world terrorists are evil but to a terrorist, everyone else that dosen't agree with their philosophy is evil.

 

Good and evil is a point of view. Both personally and socially.

 

As the saying goes, "one mans truth is another man lie"

[Sylriana]

But exposing a senator that is collaborating with the enemy (treason) is DS points... Makes no sense to me.

 

The idea of running around trying to shut people up for only the crime of disagreeing with you really seems like a lightsided action to you?

[boxfetish]

I could almost understand the choice on this quest. The one that really bothered me was the quest on Taris with the military deserters. The LIGHT SIDE choice was to pay for them to desert, leaving their unit to fight 4 people short in a hostile situation. The DARK SIDE choice was to make them honor their commitment and execute their duty.

 

That quest made me the proud owner of 50 dark side points on my trooper.

 

Here is a very clear cut example of the same rationale leading to the exact opposite result. This should make it clear that all of the hoop jumping going on trying to rationalize the dark side-light side breakdown on the OP quest is exactly that--rationlizing crap.

 

The whole "you are a servant of the Republic and the Senate" argument is just so much crap. If the Jedi ever has the moral authority to not carry out orders/follow the laws, etc. of the Republic or Senate because of a "higher calling" then your argument justifying dark side points for the OP quest falls down like a house of sh|t cards. There are plenty of example in the lore (at every level) of Jedi or Republic troops disobeying orders or "breaking the law" to do the "right" thing.

 

Nice try, though, attempting to justify dark side points for stealing the mail and scuttling the Senators plans for an alliance with the ruthless Sith.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Meluna
content and language

[Kailthir]

The idea of running around trying to shut people up for only the crime of disagreeing with you really seems like a lightsided action to you?

 

You are way over simplifing things. The senator is a traitor. That alone is a crime. If the jedi are soposed to uphold the law then any jedi is obligated to expose him.

 

Has nothing to do with shutting him up. Has to do with the law. It is unlawful to collaborate with the enemy. That is a crime.

 

Either way the law dosen't really apply to jedi. They break the law all the time. To them it's for the greater good. Not so different from the sith really.

[Sylriana]

You are way over simplifing things. The senator is a traitor. That alone is a crime. If the jedi are soposed to uphold the law then any jedi is obligated to expose him.

 

Has nothing to do with shutting him up. Has to do with the law. It is unlawful to collaborate with the enemy. That is a crime.

 

Except he's not a traitor. All he's done is say that he thinks the republic would be better off trying to ally with the Sith rather than the Jedi.

 

The quest isn't "find papers proving that the senator is trying to destroy the republic from the inside" it's "find papers so we can ruin the senator's career because he disagrees with us"

 

 

The decision is a pretty simple one: Do you truly believe in the Republic's ideals of freedom ( i.e., letting the senator continue to dissent ) or do you believe that those freedoms only belong to those who you feel deserve them ( i.e. trying to shut down the senator for not liking Jedi ).

 

From there, the LS/DS angle is a pretty straightforwward.

 

 

Part of the problem here is that you don't realize that "Light" and "Dark" are separate from "Right" and "Wrong". What might be better for the 'greater good' ( in your mind ) isn't necessarily the lightsided action.

 

There's a Jedi Knight mission where you are presented with either letting a settlement get slaughtered by Sith or letting an important republic agent get interrogated and reveal military secrets.

 

Sure, saving the agent might be better for the 'greater good', as you don't want those military secrets getting into the hands of the empire... But it's also not a lightsided action to knowingly let an entire village be slaughtered when you could have stopped it.

[HeavensAgent]

You are way over simplifing things. The senator is a traitor. That alone is a crime. If the jedi are soposed to uphold the law then any jedi is obligated to expose him.

Actually, he's want. He wants to enter into negotiations with another galactic power that the Republic has a peace treaty with. He's not betraying anything, nor is there anything to truly "expose".

 

Has nothing to do with shutting him up. Has to do with the law. It is unlawful to collaborate with the enemy. That is a crime.

The Empire and the Republic are not at war. They are not enemies.

[Lu_Bei]

The Jedi are not in charge. The senate is. The Jedi do not get involved in the politics. You by choosing to stop the process of democracy have committed an act against the republic even if knowing the consequences to be dire.

 

You are a Jedi, not a senator. You uphold the ideals of the Republic, even if there are some members who are questionable.

 

So the choices are correct when viewed from the correct perspective.

 

Makes perfect sense. Who are we to steal the guy's package on the word of some person we met on the street?

[Kailthir]

The Empire and the Republic are not at war. They are not enemies.

 

I have been in the army for 19 yrs. And every time I was charged to kill or destroy, the targets were ALWAYS labeled as enemy forces.

[HeavensAgent]

I have been in the army for 19 yrs. And every time I was charged to kill or destroy, the targets were ALWAYS labeled as enemy forces.

But you are not charged with attacking the Empire. At least, not officially. The Treaty of Coruscant is in place, and the two factions are not at war.

 

Not officially.

 

As such the Senator is not guilty of treason. He's not guilty of anything other than having an opinion. That would get him in trouble in the Empire, but it's protected in the Republic.

[LifeOfMessiah]

There are a lot of quests like that in this game where the true answer lies between black and white, or black is white and white is black. It's a tough call. Sometimes, I have had to bite the bullet and take DS points, even though I thought it should be a LS decision, as long term consequences outweigh immediate rewards. (ie, destroy a planet killing machine NOW, even though it would kill thousands of imps, to prevent the killing of millions later, which interestingly enough comes up in the game, and is an ACTUAL DS decision, the LS option being to not destroy the "machine")

 

Yes, and doesn't that scenario sound vaguely familiar? So, according to Bioware, Luke turned to the dark side by destroying the death star, and the rebellion was actually the evil empire by being involved in the destruction of thousands of lives on BOTH death stars.

Edited April 15, 2012 by LifeOfMessiah

[HeavensAgent]

There are a lot of quests like that in this game where the true answer lies between black and white, or black is white and white is black. It's a tough call. Sometimes, I have had to bite the bullet and take DS points, even though I thought it should be a LS decision, as long term consequences outweigh immediate rewards. (ie, destroy a planet killing machine NOW, even though it would kill thousands of imps, to prevent the killing of millions later, which interestingly enough comes up in the game, and is an ACTUAL DS decision, the LS option being to not destroy the "machine")

If you're going to use something of this nature to demonstrate an argument, you need to offer context. In spoilers, of course.

[LifeOfMessiah]

If you're going to use something of this nature to demonstrate an argument, you need to offer context. In spoilers, of course.

 

um...I did I gave you an example of a generic quest, because this kind of quest happens quite frequently in the game. Is that not context enough? I'm sorry I can't pull a specific quest out of my mind, since it has been a while since I went questing, but I do recall it happening.

[HeavensAgent]

um...I did I gave you an example of a generic quest, because this kind of quest happens quite frequently in the game. Is that not context enough? I'm sorry I can't pull a specific quest out of my mind, since it has been a while since I went questing, but I do recall it happening.

Not enough context, no. Without knowing the specifics, there's no basis to decide if the machine's destruction was warranted from a Light/Dark standpoint. No way to determine if it's actually comparable to the destruction of the Death Star, which represented a very real and immediate threat. Edited April 15, 2012 by HeavensAgent

[ProfessorWalsh]

This thread is going to be about the republic quest " The politics of Dissent"

 

 

For those of you who are unaware, it is a level 13ish republic quest on Coruscant, the goal of which is to intercept a courier droid, and steal a document that would, if it reached it's real destintion, help a corrupt senator break ties with the jedi order, and align the republic with the sith empire. Naturally, I, as a jedi, want to stop this. Unfortunately, Bioware are lacking in common sense.

 

 

Why, you ask? Well, this quest comes with a morality decision. Here are your options.

 

 

 

Do the right thing for the greater good of the republic, and everyone in it, save millions of lives, and intercept the package, which, and this is amazingly stupid, GIVES YOU DARK SIDE POINTS!

 

 

Or, save your honesty, but ignore the greater good and millions of lives, and let the droid make it's way to the destination, thus helping the evil senator carry out his plan. Which somehow, despite being the clearly evil option, give you light side points.

 

 

 

I mean, really? As a pure light side jedi, I can either completely betray my ideals as a jedi, and let this guy carry out his plan, or I can stick to the jedi code, and have 100 dark side points weighing me down until 50?

 

Who came up with this crap?

 

Here is the situation:

 

The thing is this... For a Jedi there is no such thing as the greater good. You are defending your choice with the argument of "The Greater Good" when that, for a Jedi, doesn't exist.

 

Do the right thing for the greater good of the republic, and everyone in it, save millions of lives, and intercept the package, which, and this is amazingly stupid, GIVES YOU DARK SIDE POINTS!

 

The Senator isn't planning to damage the Republic, the Senator is trying to open diplomatic relations with the Sith.

 

Is that evil? No.

Is that stupid? Probably.

Is the person breaking any laws? No.

 

What are you doing?

 

Don't think for a second about "why" you are doing it. Master Yoda said it best:

 

"Always have you looked away, to the future, to adventure, feh! A Jedi craves not these things."

 

A Jedi lives in the moment.

 

So what are you doing at the moment?

 

You are committing theft.

You are interfering with the legal proceedings of a sovereign government who you are sworn to serve.

 

Those things are evil.

 

The situation does not warrant Jedi intervention. Opening diplomatic relations does not indicate immediate wrong. You aren't stopping the deaths of millions because there are no deaths that are being caused by the actions that you are attempting to hinder.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

is this Sheldon Cooper?

 

No, because if you knew Sheldon Cooper, he tells you that he never identified with the Rebel Alliance. He was always an Empire man.

 

[Gnanika]

I'm pretty sure the purpose of that quest is to actually make you facepalm, and consider how, if you are a massive Light Side goober, you are really kind of playing Stupid Good, and not necessarily a heroic champion of the light. Imperial side has plenty of the opposite (horribly stupid DS choices). It fits in with BioWare's theme.

 

I suppose it's also meant to demonstrate how silly and inefficient the Senate is, and how flawed its members are. You spend half the planet doing/uncovering evil deeds linked to the Senate. It fits in with that too.

[Magisch]

I'm pretty sure the purpose of that quest is to actually make you facepalm, and consider how, if you are a massive Light Side goober, you are really kind of playing Stupid Good, and not necessarily a heroic champion of the light. Imperial side has plenty of the opposite (horribly stupid DS choices). It fits in with BioWare's theme.

 

I suppose it's also meant to demonstrate how silly and inefficient the Senate is, and how flawed its members are. You spend half the planet doing/uncovering evil deeds linked to the Senate. It fits in with that too.

 

Exactly. To underline this :

 

Ex.1

 

 

In a Quest you are sent to retrieve rare money some senator has paid to the Black Sun syndicate for Blackmailing his opponents, to let another senator form a formal accusation against him

 

 

 

Ex.2

 

 

In another quest one Senator lost a shipment of illegal slave collar chips to the migrant merchants guild

 

 

 

Ex.3

 

 

The Governor of Coruscant accepted credits from the migrant merchants guild in order to win the election

 

 

[septembersphinx]

 

 

For those of you who are unaware, it is a level 13ish republic quest on Coruscant, the goal of which is to intercept a courier droid, and steal a document that would, if it reached it's real destintion, help a corrupt senator break ties with the jedi order, and align the republic with the sith empire. Naturally, I, as a jedi, want to stop this. Unfortunately, Bioware are lacking in common sense.

 

This is something of an exaggeration. What you are told by a self proclaimed group of loyal citizens that specifically say they will go at any length to protect the "True Republic" is that a senator is gathering support to break dies with the jedi order and establish an alliance with the empire. The plan is to publicly expose his attempt.

 

From the conversation with the aide, it seems very much as though this senator is doing this entirely above board, legally, by submitting a proposal to the senate, and trying to argue his case. The courier droid and diplomatic parcel aren't clandestine things, they're perfectly legal, but the reason the radical group wants the parcel is so they can put a propaganda spin on it and completely wreck someone's career.

 

 

Do the right thing for the greater good of the republic, and everyone in it, save millions of lives, and intercept the package, which, and this is amazingly stupid, GIVES YOU DARK SIDE POINTS!

 

 

Or, save your honesty, but ignore the greater good and millions of lives, and let the droid make it's way to the destination, thus helping the evil senator carry out his plan. Which somehow, despite being the clearly evil option, give you light side points.

 

How on earth is what you're doing saving millions of lives? You're messing up a senator's proposal to the Senate. Do you really think the democratic process in the republic isn't capable of legitimately overturning this proposal? Doubtless there are other senators campaigning against him, but through the democratic process, not by theft and slander.

 

The "evil senator" isn't really evil. Extremely misguided, maybe, but even the radicals don't have anything to say about him being corrupt, or killing kittens, and you see no evidence of corruption.

 

 

So the LS/DS choice is to make you think. Is the Republic worth protecting, if in order to defend it, you need to suppress freedom of speech, and take matters into your hand because you cannot trust to the democratic system not to be swayed too easily into an idiotic political alliance?

 

I took the LS choice on my consular, because she realized that there was no way the senator's proposal would ever pass, but that she believed in the republic, because the republic allowed him to try to make it. Believe me, no deaths happened as a result of her actions.

 

 

Thinking that the only way to stop this proposal is your personal actions, and that therefore justifies suppressing freedom of speech and committing theft seems to me very dark side.

Edited April 15, 2012 by septembersphinx

[LifeOfMessiah]

This is something of an exaggeration. What you are told by a self proclaimed group of loyal citizens that specifically say they will go at any length to protect the "True Republic" is that a senator is gathering support to break dies with the jedi order and establish an alliance with the empire. The plan is to publicly expose his attempt.

 

From the conversation with the aide, it seems very much as though this senator is doing this entirely above board, legally, by submitting a proposal to the senate, and trying to argue his case. The courier droid and diplomatic parcel aren't clandestine things, they're perfectly legal, but the reason the radical group wants the parcel is so they can put a propaganda spin on it and completely wreck someone's career.

 

 

 

 

How on earth is what you're doing saving millions of lives? You're messing up a senator's proposal to the Senate. Do you really think the democratic process in the republic isn't capable of legitimately overturning this proposal? Doubtless there are other senators campaigning against him, but through the democratic process, not by theft and slander.

 

The "evil senator" isn't really evil. Extremely misguided, maybe, but even the radicals don't have anything to say about him being corrupt, or killing kittens, and you see no evidence of corruption.

 

 

So the LS/DS choice is to make you think. Is the Republic worth protecting, if in order to defend it, you need to suppress freedom of speech, and take matters into your hand because you cannot trust to the democratic system not to be swayed too easily into an idiotic political alliance?

 

I took the LS choice on my consular, because she realized that there was no way the senator's proposal would ever pass, but that she believed in the republic, because the republic allowed him to try to make it. Believe me, no deaths happened as a result of her actions.

 

 

Thinking that the only way to stop this proposal is your personal actions, and that therefore justifies suppressing freedom of speech and committing theft seems to me very dark side.

 

/signed. Very good explanation of the reasons behind why the two choices were setup the way they were.

[Darth_Slaine]

This is something of an exaggeration. What you are told by a self proclaimed group of loyal citizens that specifically say they will go at any length to protect the "True Republic" is that a senator is gathering support to break dies with the jedi order and establish an alliance with the empire. The plan is to publicly expose his attempt.

 

From the conversation with the aide, it seems very much as though this senator is doing this entirely above board, legally, by submitting a proposal to the senate, and trying to argue his case. The courier droid and diplomatic parcel aren't clandestine things, they're perfectly legal, but the reason the radical group wants the parcel is so they can put a propaganda spin on it and completely wreck someone's career.

 

 

 

 

How on earth is what you're doing saving millions of lives? You're messing up a senator's proposal to the Senate. Do you really think the democratic process in the republic isn't capable of legitimately overturning this proposal? Doubtless there are other senators campaigning against him, but through the democratic process, not by theft and slander.

 

The "evil senator" isn't really evil. Extremely misguided, maybe, but even the radicals don't have anything to say about him being corrupt, or killing kittens, and you see no evidence of corruption.

 

 

So the LS/DS choice is to make you think. Is the Republic worth protecting, if in order to defend it, you need to suppress freedom of speech, and take matters into your hand because you cannot trust to the democratic system not to be swayed too easily into an idiotic political alliance?

 

I took the LS choice on my consular, because she realized that there was no way the senator's proposal would ever pass, but that she believed in the republic, because the republic allowed him to try to make it. Believe me, no deaths happened as a result of her actions.

 

 

Thinking that the only way to stop this proposal is your personal actions, and that therefore justifies suppressing freedom of speech and committing theft seems to me very dark side.

 

This is the correct answer. The dilemma has nothing to do with being a Jedi and everything to do with whether it is ethical to impose tyranny upon democracy simply because you do not personally agree with the choices made by other people.

 

The theft, in this case, is a non-issue. It is about politics. It is about maintaining the rule of Law and showing that not even the Jedi are above the will of the democratically elected government.

 

Though I think this quest is only open to Jedi, I feel that the choices would be the same (with the same LS/DS pay-off) for any class. Democracy is not "You have the freedom to choose things that I like."

Edited April 15, 2012 by Darth_Slaine

[vrgadin]

Just level to 50 lol.. jeez..

 

unfortunately the only good part of this game is 1-50 questing.

 

once ur 50 its endless wzs or the same ops over and over.

[boxfetish]

Still all kinds of blatent hypocrisy and hair-splitting going on in defense of giving out dark-side points for intercepting the letter and scuttling the (obviously) corrupt Senator's plans.

 

Not to mention, the Taris quest where an equivalent decision has the opposite result (i.e., light-side points for defying the authority of the Republic/Senate and dark-side points for choosing to have Republic soldiers honor their oath to the Republic).

 

 

1. The Jedi is selfish or undermining the Republic by intercepting the mail and thwarting the Senator, because the Senate represents unquestionable authority and the Jedi possesses incomplete information: "It's just some chick on the street that told you these things", "you don't know her" "The senator isn't doing anything illegal", "The Sith are not the enemy", "The Republic is not at war with the Sith" Any number of bizarre suppositions about the Republic, the Senate, and Jedi are made in order to defend the ridiculous quest as implemented.

 

2. Ironically, those criticizing the quest are not allowed to make any suppositions or assumptions about the the quest or about the role of the Jedi, or the source of the information, or the context under which the Jedi is making his or her choice. No doubt in order to prop up the ridiculous defense of the quest and to undermine criticism. For example, it is not okay for the the Jedi player to assume that the Sith are evil or the enemy, that a Senator that would ally the Republic with the Sith against the Jedi is the enemy, etc. This, in a game where almost the entire existance of the Jedi player is to execute Sith and Sith empire lackies by the thousands while under a peace treaty between the Sith and the Republic.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Meluna

[Valhalyn]

The idea behind this quest is freedom, and Freedom doesn't mean doing the right or wrong thing. It's allowing someone to choose. By taking the parcel you're removing that freedom and going against the values of the republic where everyones voice is allowed to be heard no matter what they think