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Really Bioware? REALLY?!!


MadProfStein

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This thread is going to be about the republic quest " The politics of Dissent"

 

 

For those of you who are unaware, it is a level 13ish republic quest on Coruscant, the goal of which is to intercept a courier droid, and steal a document that would, if it reached it's real destintion, help a corrupt senator break ties with the jedi order, and align the republic with the sith empire. Naturally, I, as a jedi, want to stop this. Unfortunately, Bioware are lacking in common sense.

 

 

Why, you ask? Well, this quest comes with a morality decision. Here are your options.

 

 

 

Do the right thing for the greater good of the republic, and everyone in it, save millions of lives, and intercept the package, which, and this is amazingly stupid, GIVES YOU DARK SIDE POINTS!

 

 

Or, save your honesty, but ignore the greater good and millions of lives, and let the droid make it's way to the destination, thus helping the evil senator carry out his plan. Which somehow, despite being the clearly evil option, give you light side points.

 

 

 

I mean, really? As a pure light side jedi, I can either completely betray my ideals as a jedi, and let this guy carry out his plan, or I can stick to the jedi code, and have 100 dark side points weighing me down until 50?

 

Who came up with this crap?

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The Jedi are not in charge. The senate is. The Jedi do not get involved in the politics. You by choosing to stop the process of democracy have committed an act against the republic even if knowing the consequences to be dire.

 

You are a Jedi, not a senator. You uphold the ideals of the Republic, even if there are some members who are questionable.

 

So the choices are correct when viewed from the correct perspective.

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Yes well, this is probably far from the last time you will argue the LS/DS distribution. In this case one could argue that it is unfair and undemocratic to interfere. It is also strange how it is war time, though you are not allowed to assassinate people which will make the war end earlier. Or launch your super weapon that drives the empire back. No, no it is far better to keep on killing each other until one side gives up.

 

Especially on the side of the empire I find you get LS points for the lesser evil instead of an actual good deed.

Edited by Gokkus
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1. Not everything is an easy choice.

 

2. Skip the quest, it's optional.

 

 

 

No, this SHOULD be a pretty freaking easy choice.

 

 

I am a light side jedi. So the EASY CHOICE would be to stop the guy and be rewarded for sticking to the jedi code, as light side jedi. But someone felt like turning their brain off while making this quest.

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The Jedi are not in charge. The senate is. The Jedi do not get involved in the politics. You by choosing to stop the process of democracy have committed an act against the republic even if knowing the consequences to be dire.

 

You are a Jedi, not a senator. You uphold the ideals of the Republic, even if there are some members who are questionable.

 

So the choices are correct when viewed from the correct perspective.

 

 

 

I am a jedi. I do not serve the Senate, or the republic. I serve the council. Who is a completely seperate entity from the senate and the republic, but are currently protecting them from the evil that is the sith.

 

I cannot protect them from the evil of the sith in this situation without getting darkside points for it.

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OMG one of my biggest problem quest was the one with the Republic loyal Hutt who wanted to keep his past a secret. He trusted me with the information and the so-called "light" option has you betray him and would mark you as a rat to whom no one could trust secrets. I don't think I remember the Coruscant one but I do remember the one with the corrupt female senator.
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No, this SHOULD be a pretty freaking easy choice.

 

 

I am a light side jedi. So the EASY CHOICE would be to stop the guy and be rewarded for sticking to the jedi code, as light side jedi. But someone felt like turning their brain off while making this quest.

 

I disagree. The man is only a Senator in the Republic. Even if his views are "radical", that does not give the Jedi any authority to intervene. Keep in mind, the group that wanted you to intercept the package in the first place was viewed as a "radical" group itself.

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This thread is going to be about the republic quest " The politics of Dissent"

 

 

For those of you who are unaware, it is a level 13ish republic quest on Coruscant, the goal of which is to intercept a courier droid, and steal a document that would, if it reached it's real destintion, help a corrupt senator break ties with the jedi order, and align the republic with the sith empire. Naturally, I, as a jedi, want to stop this. Unfortunately, Bioware are lacking in common sense.

 

 

Why, you ask? Well, this quest comes with a morality decision. Here are your options.

 

 

 

Do the right thing for the greater good of the republic, and everyone in it, save millions of lives, and intercept the package, which, and this is amazingly stupid, GIVES YOU DARK SIDE POINTS!

 

While committing theft, and violating the laws of the very Republic the Jedi Order protects.

 

 

Or, save your honesty, but ignore the greater good and millions of lives, and let the droid make it's way to the destination, thus helping the evil senator carry out his plan. Which somehow, despite being the clearly evil option, give you light side points.

 

While betraying the very concept of democracy the Republic is founded on, and the Jedi Order swears to protect. It doesn't matter if your "Jedi" is loyal to the Council, the Council has sworn the Order to defend the Republic. By serving one you serve the other.

 

I mean, really? As a pure light side jedi, I can either completely betray my ideals as a jedi, and let this guy carry out his plan, or I can stick to the jedi code, and have 100 dark side points weighing me down until 50?

 

Who came up with this crap?

 

There is no emotion, there is peace.

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

There is no passion, there is serenity.

There is no chaos, there is harmony.

There is no death, there is the Force.

 

What conflict with the Jedi Code? Also Jedi are trained to act on logic not emotion or "ideals". Making a decisions based on ideals would be counter to the Jedi Code not for it.

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me.

 

Now the Code of the Sith on the other hand would do well to try and undermine Democratic processes, their objective is to gain power in order to cow everyone else. Stealing that document is a way of gaining power, you forced your will on the entire Republic.

Edited by Quantum
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No, this SHOULD be a pretty freaking easy choice.

 

 

I am a light side jedi. So the EASY CHOICE would be to stop the guy and be rewarded for sticking to the jedi code, as light side jedi. But someone felt like turning their brain off while making this quest.

 

Except that as mentioned, it is not the place of the Jedi to stop the senate doing things.

 

The Jedi code prohibits Jedi from ruling anyone, which means that perverting the mechanisms of the senate to not disagree with the jedi would be a dark sidfe act, as it is against the code. If the senate vote to do something stupid, the Jedi are obligated to let them do it.

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I disagree. The man is only a Senator in the Republic. Even if his views are "radical", that does not give the Jedi any authority to intervene. Keep in mind, the group that wanted you to intercept the package in the first place was viewed as a "radical" group itself.

 

Just because authority and structure say something's right doesn't make it right. Burning witches and stealing land is irrefutably evil, and if you could save plenty of lives by killing someone who would order said burnings then it's worth it to trade one evil life to save hundreds of innocents.

 

Also, sometimes you need to circumvent authority to do the right thing, and if the Jedi is capable in that particular instance to save millions of lives then he does in fact have de facto authority to intervene.

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Just because authority and structure say something's right doesn't make it right. Burning witches and stealing land is irrefutably evil, and if you could save plenty of lives by killing someone who would order said burnings then it's worth it to trade one evil life to save hundreds of innocents.

 

Also, sometimes you need to circumvent authority to do the right thing, and if the Jedi is capable in that particular instance to save millions of lives then he does in fact have de facto authority to intervene.

 

I don't disagree with the first part of your post, but as I said, it is not the place of the Jedi to get involved with the politics of the Republic.

 

Now, I don't remember the exact details of what the package was supposed to contain, but I don't recall there ever being any threat to "millions of lives". He's just one Senator. He may have his supporters, but if the rest of the Senate disagrees with him, he really can't do anything.

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No, this SHOULD be a pretty freaking easy choice.

 

I am a light side jedi. So the EASY CHOICE would be to stop the guy and be rewarded for sticking to the jedi code, as light side jedi. But someone felt like turning their brain off while making this quest.

 

You are placing yourself above the law. It doesn't matter how pure your cause is; power corrupts and the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Your preferred choice is a tyrannical act.

 

I grant you that the quest has an unsatisfactory resolution and that it could have been written better -- but you can't blame Bioware for the binary Light/Dark morality spectrum in Star Wars. Bioware's been dealt a bit of a tough hand: if they make story choices too clear-cut, then they can easily be accused of straw-manning or laziness. If they make story choices too realistic, then they can easily be accused of assigning the wrong values to any given choice.

 

FWIW, this Coruscant quest was (IIRC) one of only two spots where I took DS points on my Consular on the whole trip to 50. There's something so skeevy about the senator and his lackey here that I just couldn't bring myself to play the disagree-with-what-you-say-but-will-defend-to-the-death-your-right-to-say-it card. On the other hand, there are other choices, later on, that are much more objectionable, IMO.

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1. Not everything is an easy choice.

 

2. Skip the quest, it's optional.

After this one and the one on Ord Mantell where I was forced to make a similar decision, I basically gave up on LS/DS entirely. After that I just picked a side for my character and blindly followed it, which I doubt was the intention.

 

The point being, they should find a better way to implement LS/DS, and free the dialogue from its artificial shackles.

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Basically you are not only violating the law, you are violating the Democratic principals the Republic is based on. That is an evil act.

 

Some times in being good, you have to let bad things happen. What this Senator was doing was not illegal.

 

By the way, I took the dark path.

Edited by Rodane
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Just level to 50 lol.. jeez..:D

 

Yeah because that is the main point of this game.

 

Concerning this quest, I think the light side and dark side choices are correctly placed. The Jedi are not supposed to meddle in democratic procedings, they often do, but it is not a honest thing to do. I know that it would be prudent to meddle and stop the courier, but that would also be against the Jedi code and the Jedi way. Yes it is a gray area in what is right and wrong, and it is a great quest in that it makes you think. I like that some quests have choices that are harder to make.

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Yeah because that is the main point of this game.

 

Concerning this quest, I think the light side and dark side choices are correctly placed. The Jedi are not supposed to meddle in democratic procedings, they often do, but it is not a honest thing to do. I know that it would be prudent to meddle and stop the courier, but that would also be against the Jedi code and the Jedi way. Yes it is a gray area in what is right and wrong, and it is a great quest in that it makes you think. I like that some quests have choices that are harder to make.

 

Exactly! I love that as well! I can't even begin to tell you the number of times I got to the end of a quest and then proceeded to rack my brain for 10 minutes or so trying to decide which option my character was going to take.

 

Note: My decisions were never based on whether or not I would receive DS/LS points for a particular action -- they were always based on what I thought was the best option for my character.

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I am a jedi. I do not serve the Senate, or the republic. I serve the council. Who is a completely seperate entity from the senate and the republic, but are currently protecting them from the evil that is the sith.

 

I cannot protect them from the evil of the sith in this situation without getting darkside points for it.

 

I believe part of the Jedi practise is to not interfere in the legitimate political process surely?

 

If the republic as a whole vote to break ties with the jedi order, that is entirely their legitimate choice to do so.

 

For a jedi to block the republics democratic process for the interests of their own order or their own personal opinions on what is better is most certainly not part of the Jedi mentality of not letting emotions sway you.

 

 

As a general rule (but one that is all too often broken) Jedi help when asked, but in larger decisions the jedi council will often refuse to take action if they deem the help (although for a greater good perhaps) will force them to go against their teachings one way or another or if the situation is rather delicate.... just look at the mandalorian war.

 

But remember this for starters: Jedi are not a galactic police force, flying down to other civilisations imposing their own kind of 'peace' onto other cultures.... more often than not it's more the Jedi way to not really care that much about such things.

Edited by Tikigit
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I am a jedi. I do not serve the Senate, or the republic. I serve the council. Who is a completely seperate entity from the senate and the republic, but are currently protecting them from the evil that is the sith.

 

I cannot protect them from the evil of the sith in this situation without getting darkside points for it.

Yes, but it was a Senate courier droid delivering a package to a Senator in a Republic that legally protects free expression. By stopping the droid, you are interfering with the Senate. What's more, you are preventing the Senator in question from voicing his opinion, a legally protected right.

 

The Jedi Order does not serve the Senate, and a case can be made that they do, in fact, serve the Republic. Most importantly, though, the Jedi are citizens of the republic and bound by its laws. Taking the communication would have broken those laws.

 

So yes, interfering is and should be a Dark Side option.

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This thread is going to be about the republic quest " The politics of Dissent"

 

 

For those of you who are unaware, it is a level 13ish republic quest on Coruscant, the goal of which is to intercept a courier droid, and steal a document that would, if it reached it's real destintion, help a corrupt senator break ties with the jedi order, and align the republic with the sith empire. Naturally, I, as a jedi, want to stop this. Unfortunately, Bioware are lacking in common sense.

 

 

Why, you ask? Well, this quest comes with a morality decision. Here are your options.

 

 

 

Do the right thing for the greater good of the republic, and everyone in it, save millions of lives, and intercept the package, which, and this is amazingly stupid, GIVES YOU DARK SIDE POINTS!

 

 

Or, save your honesty, but ignore the greater good and millions of lives, and let the droid make it's way to the destination, thus helping the evil senator carry out his plan. Which somehow, despite being the clearly evil option, give you light side points.

 

 

 

I mean, really? As a pure light side jedi, I can either completely betray my ideals as a jedi, and let this guy carry out his plan, or I can stick to the jedi code, and have 100 dark side points weighing me down until 50?

 

Who came up with this crap?

 

That is my question when it comes to allowing Love as a Jedi. It nets Dark Side points but that directly conflicts with some Star Wars lore, even lore BioWare created. Love is not always evil, in fact Love between Revan and Bastilla can help save Bastilla from the Dark Side.

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