Sylriana Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Can you honestly not see why trying to silence free speech and destroy a man's career because he doesn't share your world view would count as a dark side action?
Valin_Thren Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) Ah Jedi. Always so noble, except when they decide to break the law "for the greater good". TO place themselves in the place of supreme power over the Senate, over the Republic, over the democratic process. You are no different than we Sith are. You are simply dishonest with yourselves about it. We admit what we are, fully and openly. I applaud you, young one. How many more laws and rules will you break, "for the greater good"? How many more, until you are with the Empire? We'll be waiting. I would be much more intimidated, were that lightsaber in your sig not pink. Havoc can take you. Edited April 15, 2012 by Valin_Thren
Tikigit Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) I think there is some confusion between "Light/Dark side" and people applying a "Good/Evil" direct relationship between the two.... one Bioware have also made in places with their choices, but for this specific case they called it right and the dispute in this thread seems to be from people thinking that the dark side is the same as evil.... which is not the case at all. You can have a ambitious politician who has dreams of a peaceful unified galaxy, and to do that crosses some lines such as ignoring food shortages and having civilians die in order to better fund military in order to protect vital strongholds leading to holding the area from a foaming at the mouth army of mass murderers..... But the act of turning a blind eye on the starvation of people when something could be done, would in very basic terms be one step along the scale to the darkside (if it were to be translated into an actual scale obviously)... even though the end result is only a few die rather than keeping them alive long enough to see everyone die to the invading forces. It's not a Mass Effect Paragon/Renegade system kind of deal (or rather, it shouldn't be but often Bioware seem to fall into bad habits at times), nor is it clear cut and all about the 'greater' good. Dark/Light alignment is entirely a personal matter and is something that reflects the individual, their personality and their actions.... if you just saved a building full of orphans, by giving in to your emotions and using them to fuel uncontrolled aggression killing 3 dozen people trying to burn the building down, that's you on your merry way to the dark side, grand scheme doesn't come into it. The same with giving in to your emotions and personal interests to interfere in a political process... you may or may not end up making things better, but the conscious decision you just made to let your own interests/opinions take the lead and disrupt the ability for people to make their own decisions and for events to play out is going to leave an impression on you. Unfortunately this is slightly iffy to translate into a game in a way that people will jump on board with and grasp quickly, so for ToR it's simply depicted as a global point system. Edited April 15, 2012 by Tikigit
Frostyforce Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 This thread is going to be about the republic quest " The politics of Dissent" For those of you who are unaware, it is a level 13ish republic quest on Coruscant, the goal of which is to intercept a courier droid, and steal a document that would, if it reached it's real destintion, help a corrupt senator break ties with the jedi order, and align the republic with the sith empire. Naturally, I, as a jedi, want to stop this. Unfortunately, Bioware are lacking in common sense. Why, you ask? Well, this quest comes with a morality decision. Here are your options. Do the right thing for the greater good of the republic, and everyone in it, save millions of lives, and intercept the package, which, and this is amazingly stupid, GIVES YOU DARK SIDE POINTS! Or, save your honesty, but ignore the greater good and millions of lives, and let the droid make it's way to the destination, thus helping the evil senator carry out his plan. Which somehow, despite being the clearly evil option, give you light side points. I mean, really? As a pure light side jedi, I can either completely betray my ideals as a jedi, and let this guy carry out his plan, or I can stick to the jedi code, and have 100 dark side points weighing me down until 50? Who came up with this crap? Stealing mail is a crime and therefore u get darkside points. Quit whining and run one flashpoint and you'll be even again.
RowanThursday Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Havoc couldn't take a drunken Ewok In other news... my smuggler and my Jedi Knight both took the dark side choice here, but a) the smuggler was very sick of politicians at that point and also felt guilty and *knew* she'd done the wrong thing, and b) my Knight's got distinct light side Sith overtones to her- i.e. as a Jedi, she's a merciless war machine, it's her *passions* and her sentiment- when they arise, that make her better than that... so, again, did the wrong thing, but it was appropriate to the character. In neither case though, did I doubt that it *was* the wrong thing. You're subverting the rule of law, the principle of the democratic process... everything the Republic is about, just in order to reign it in closer to the definition of 'right' employed by the Force-wielding Elite. Believing that is 'right' means it's time to take that shuttle to Korriban...
Miyaka Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 I would be much more intimidated, were that lightsaber in your sig not pink. Havoc can take you. Foolish is he that would mock the color of the lightsaber going through his chest. Perhaps the color choice is intentional, and was meant to throw you off your guard. Never underestimate your enemy.
Thaed Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Obviously preventing an alliance with the Sith Empire is evil; the Empire are the good guys.
Derekloffin Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 There is many quests I have some quibble with, that isn't one of them. It is pretty clear that tossing aside the very foundation of your government to self-servingly push the Jedi agenda through pretty clear illegal means is wrong. In fact, the part I had more an issue with was that you can even start the quest without getting some dark side points. I mean seriously, some lady asks you to hack a droid, and steal some diplomatic papers and you just take her word for it that it's all for a good cause?
TheBBP Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) I am a jedi. I do not serve the Senate, or the republic. I serve the council. Who is a completely seperate entity from the senate and the republic, but are currently protecting them from the evil that is the sith. I cannot protect them from the evil of the sith in this situation without getting darkside points for it. Technically, the Republic is still at a truce with the Sith. They are technically a political enemy that you have to deal with the presence of in diplomatic circles. By doing what you think is right, you are breaking the law, hence netting you dark side points. Edited April 15, 2012 by TheBBP
eGraced Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 I could almost understand the choice on this quest. The one that really bothered me was the quest on Taris with the military deserters. The LIGHT SIDE choice was to pay for them to desert, leaving their unit to fight 4 people short in a hostile situation. The DARK SIDE choice was to make them honor their commitment and execute their duty. That quest made me the proud owner of 50 dark side points on my trooper.
FalcoLombardi Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Exposing a politician should be insta-500000000000000000000000000000 lightside points...
Kourage Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=245
jhartel Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Again, it's not that love itself is "evil" in the minds of the Jedi. It's just that love involves a strong emotional involvement with another individual which is more than enough to cloud one's judgment. For that reason, I think it makes sense that a Jedi receives dark side points for falling in love. Which is prequel created BS. I so hate Lucas.
jhartel Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 You can have sex and make a baby without being in love. Ask my ex-wife. Single dad myself, know how that can be, but canon wise in KoTOR they were.
HeavensAgent Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Exposing a politician should be insta-500000000000000000000000000000 lightside points...Though there was nothing to expose in this case ...
jhartel Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Uhh guys don't take the writing too seriously. The morality decisions are just off one example can't remember the quest some chick is possessed by like a alien bug parasite. The light side choice is to let her return to serve the bugs, the dark side is returning the girl to her father. Remember this is the same game that you now can have Chiss force users and Pure Blood Jedi...and rocket boots! Story driven mmo...LOL! Why can't that be story driven? Look at Cade Skywalker.
Captain_Zone Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 It's a no-brainer. Take the DS hit and have fun. EVERY one of my Reppy toons has DS points from that mission. It's worth it to expose political corruption.
Forgon Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 I am a jedi. I do not serve the Senate, or the republic. I serve the council. Who is a completely seperate entity from the senate and the republic, but are currently protecting them from the evil that is the sith. I cannot protect them from the evil of the sith in this situation without getting darkside points for it. You should know the Jedi Order is sworn to serve the Galactic Republic and the Senate. For that same reason, it is treasonous for the Jedi to interfere directly in the Senate's politics in such a way (why Palpatine was able to swoon Anakin and the galaxy to making his Empire).
Rojahar Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 All you're doing is exposing that he wants to sell out the Republic to the Sith. You'd think bringing the truth to light wouldn't be darksided.
PanthersSolo Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 All you're doing is exposing that he wants to sell out the Republic to the Sith. You'd think bringing the truth to light wouldn't be darksided. But tattling is bad... mmmkay. And you shoudlnt tattle... because tattling is bad.
Revcis Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 I am a jedi. I do not serve the Senate, or the republic. I serve the council. Who is a completely seperate entity from the senate and the republic, but are currently protecting them from the evil that is the sith. I cannot protect them from the evil of the sith in this situation without getting darkside points for it. is this Sheldon Cooper?
Forgon Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Which is prequel created BS. I so hate Lucas. I actually find it one of the things Lucas actually was spot on about. Love itself is good but we all know how these "forbidden love" stories goes and some of the psychology behind them (ex: Romeo and Juliet, a so called "true" love story).
Karkais Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) No, this SHOULD be a pretty freaking easy choice. I am a light side jedi. So the EASY CHOICE would be to stop the guy and be rewarded for sticking to the jedi code, as light side jedi. But someone felt like turning their brain off while making this quest. You think breaking the law should be an easy choice and you should be rewarded for it? Really? In my opinion this quest is far from 'crap'. You should pay more attention to your own perceptions as to what is 'good and right' instead of the actual quest. Edited April 15, 2012 by Karkais
Captain_Zone Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 I actually find it one of the things Lucas actually was spot on about. Love itself is good but we all know how these "forbidden love" stories goes and some of the psychology behind them (ex: Romeo and Juliet, a so called "true" love story). Well, it wouldn't have been forbidden if the Jedi had any common sense whatsoever. Honestly, I believe it's the Councils' faults throughout Star Wars history since they first banned love and marriage between Jedi. If they were open about it and allowed it, I firmly believe that Anakin would have had a chance. He could have gone to Yoda or Obi-Wan or Windu, etc. and told them about his visions of Padme's death and NOT had to hide it. They could have helped him. But instead, he's getting mind****ed by Palpatine and getting more and more emo as he goes. Something seriously wrong there.
Kailthir Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) I keep hearing the "you are breaking the law, that's an evil act" responce. Breaking the law is not evil. When someone goes 1 mile over the speed limit, is that an evil act? people all over the world break laws and don't even know it... is that evil? Did u know having sex totally nakid in Florida is against the law. It's actually on the books... are all these couples evil? What I find more strange is how you turn in the senator that took the money from a crime boss, and double crossed him. Used the money to do good. If you don't expose her you get DS points. But exposing a senator that is collaborating with the enemy (treason) is DS points... Makes no sense to me. Edited April 15, 2012 by Kailthir misspellings
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