Really Bioware? REALLY?!!

[MarkaRagno]

The Jedi are not in charge. The senate is. The Jedi do not get involved in the politics. You by choosing to stop the process of democracy have committed an act against the republic even if knowing the consequences to be dire.

 

You are a Jedi, not a senator. You uphold the ideals of the Republic, even if there are some members who are questionable.

 

So the choices are correct when viewed from the correct perspective.

 

This guy is completely correct. Deal with it OP.

[ScarletBlaze]

Also if I remember this quest there is a reponse that you give that says you really don't know the group that ask you to do this.

 

Who is to say they are actually telling you the truth or something they want you to believe is the truth.

 

The political scene is a very difficult avenue. Just because this senator wants to do one thing doesn't mean it will happen. The senate is made up of more than just one person.

 

The choices on this quest I believe were correct. As much as you would like to say a Jedi can't choose one side over the other without knowing both sides. We only get the one side and then we go to break a law by taking a package from a droid, who is only making a delivery.

 

In order to make a judgment that the senator is corrupt you would need to investigate him and the claims, we don't have the opportunity to do that.

 

We have to go on the premise that we have to trust in the senate and let them decide what is righ for the Republic based on evidence not on one senators' ideas.

[boxfetish]

I'm sorry, I forget the part where the thing you just said makes any sense at all. One is a senator going through the diplomatic process, the other is a tyrannical empire that will kill them if they find them. That is the dumbest comparison ever.

 

So, you reserve the right for yourself to draw a line or make the moral judgement of when the Republic becomes tyrannical and no longer represents or holds authority over the Jedi, while simultaneoulsy enforcing a very rigid and inflexible Senate authority (full of assumptions to prop up this farce) over the Jedi completing this quest. More cut and dried hypocrisy. I see you also used the buzzword "empire" to describe the authority you no longer regard as valid. No doubt in an failed effort to disguise the hypocrisy. As if some sort of switch was flipped which changed the Republic from a legal authority to a tyrannical empire that the Jedi no longer need respect. Laughable. You are going to hurt yourself if you keep up with these contortions.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Meluna

[MikelGoff]

So, you reserve the right for yourself to draw a line or make the moral judgement of when the Republic becomes tyrannical and no longer represents or holds authority over the Jedi, while simultaneoulsy enforcing a very rigid and inflexible Senate authority (full of assumptions to prop up this farce) over the Jedi completing this quest. More cut and dried hypocrisy. I see you also used the buzzword "empire" to describe the authority you no longer regard as valid. No doubt in an failed effort to disguise the hypocrisy. As if some sort of switch was flipped which changed the Republic from a legal authority to a tyrannical empire that the Jedi no longer need respect. Laughable. You are going to hurt yourself if you keep up with these contortions.

 

 

A) Yes, I do reserve the right to make a distinction between a tyranical (and genocidal) government and one that is neither tyranical or genocidal. If you see that as hypocrisy, then you're just about the most ignorant person ever. Also, I didn't use "empire" to describe them for the lulz. I used Empire because that's what it was called by... Emperor Palpatine.

 

Your whole premise is a joke.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Meluna

[Meluna]

Hello, folks. We recently had to remove or edit a number of posts in this thread. We appreciate and encourage debate, but discussion/comparisons to real life politics is not something we allow. These quickly go off topic and can easily fall into inappropriate territory.

 

Thank you for your understanding!

[AlyxDinas]

The senator's not doing anything illegal. You are. End of discussion.

[HeavensAgent]

Smattering of text using conflicting examples and grandstanding rhetoric.

Wow, are you completely off-base.

 

The facts are simple here:

• The Empire is not the enemy of the Republic; the two governments are at peace.
  
  
• Free speech and expression are legally protected in the Republic.
  
  
• The senator's proposal may be misguided and/or unpopular, but it is not illegal
  
  
• There is no immediate threat to life, and you have no way of knowing if the action will lead to bloodshed in the future
  
  

 

Therefore, by intercepting the package and interfering with legal Republic political practices you are breaking Republic law. You can justify it however you want, but as a Jedi you are still violating the edicts of the very government you are sworn to protect. You are sworn to protect the freedom of the Republic and its citizens, but by stealing the package you are denying that freedom to the senator. That is a Dark Side choice.

Edited April 15, 2012 by HeavensAgent

[Invictos]

Wow, are you completely off-base.

 

The facts are simple here:

• The Empire is not the enemy of the Republic; the two governments are at peace.
  
  
• Free speech and expression are legally protected in the Republic.
  
  
• The senator's proposal may be misguided and/or unpopular, but it is not illegal
  
  
• There is no immediate threat to life, and you have no way of knowing if the action will lead to bloodshed in the future
  
  

 

Therefore, by intercepting the package and interfering with legal Republic political practices you are breaking Republic law. You can justify it however you want, but as a Jedi you are still violating the edicts of the very government you are sworn to protect. You are sworn to protect the freedom of the Republic and its citizens, but by stealing the package you are denying that freedom to the senator. That is a Dark Side choice.

 

You are denying that freedom to the senator -- and more to the point, making a mockery of his, and every other senators', constituents. Allowing duly elected representatives to conduct their business -- as long as that business is legal -- is kinda the whole basis for a free Republic.

 

If the representative is wrong, then he can be voted out. Or, if you believe he's committing a crime, then you can work within the confines of due process to prosecute him. What you don't do, if you truly believe in and purport to protect the principles of a free society, is to appoint yourself as ultimate and extra-legal moral authority. Jedi aren't kings.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Invictos

[Karkais]

Except he's not a traitor. All he's done is say that he thinks the republic would be better off trying to ally with the Sith rather than the Jedi.

 

The quest isn't "find papers proving that the senator is trying to destroy the republic from the inside" it's "find papers so we can ruin the senator's career because he disagrees with us"

 

Exactly. The senator is issuing his opinion which anybody is allowed to have in democracies, basically by law. There is no treachery anywhere, except in what the jedi knight might be doing. The lawful option would be to allow senate vote about the issue.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Karkais

[DarthSagarath]

The woman that sent you to intercept the package was the corrupt one, NOT the senator, the girl was just lying so she could receive the contents of the package for herself and her group which the senator even clearly shows you is corrupt. Maybe, next time you do a quest you shouldn't skip through every conversation you come across Edited April 16, 2012 by Zilrota
removed "retarded" - IC

[lokdron]

Ah Jedi.

Always so noble, except when they decide to break the law "for the greater good". TO place themselves in the place of supreme power over the Senate, over the Republic, over the democratic process.

 

You are no different than we Sith are. You are simply dishonest with yourselves about it. We admit what we are, fully and openly.

 

I applaud you, young one.

How many more laws and rules will you break, "for the greater good"?

How many more, until you are with the Empire?

We'll be waiting.

 

Yup I think many people here should join us the sith.

[Tadshackles]

Jedi believe in Truth above all else.

 

ABOVE ALL ELSE!

 

They believe that the truth must be known for the proper decisions to be made.

 

Lying will ALWAYS be darkside.

[lasmith]

It is very simple. If you interfere with the droid and steal the documents from it, you are violating Republic law. That is a "bad" thing. Being a rational, thinking being, you can chose to do a bad thing for a good reason, but it is still a bad thing. If you cast a black spell for a good purpose, you still get demon smut on your soul. Deal with it.

[Erevan_Kindelar]

When I did this quest on my Sage, I went with the Light option - let the Senator raise his issue in the Senate, have the debate, and let the democratically elected Senators decide on it. The reasoning was that the Republic is democratic (ok I know that technically Republics are not democratic institutions by default, but this is not a PoliSci class...).

 

Even though the Senator is himself abusing and subverting democratic principle with his decision to place the "True Republic" or whatever they are called on a Senate Security watch list so they could not get in and make trouble (where presumably their democratic right as citizens is to attend and watch over the Senatorial discussions). My philosophy there is that a wrong act (taking the package) to save the Republic does not balance out his wrong act (excluding free citizens from the democratic process simply because they voiciferously disagree with his ideals). In that light, I would consider the choice made by the Sage to be the Light Sided choice - allowing free expression even when it is against my own opinions and against what I am sure is the correct option.

 

In contrast, my Trooper had a much simpler approach - take the parcel and the Dark Side points. The Senators are a bunch of f*cktard idiots who should let Havoc Squad get on with wiping out the Imperials one Sith/Soldier at a time, and who cannot be trusted to make the right decision (voting down such an idiotic proposal) without the ordinary people of Coruscant being there to remind them of the correct decision.

[Alteri]

Short of wading through each post, I'll say (even if it's just to repeat it, as it's worth doing so) one of the dialog response options says (paraphrasing) the Jedi don't usually get involved with politics.

 

Agreeing to intercept the courier droid in the first place should trigger dark side points.

 

Once you stray to the dark path, forever will it guide your steps.

[Oggthebase]

But then I ask, going down the dark path, and accepting these dark side points, why can't I just kill the guy trying to stop me, where he stands, and go kill that corrupt senator right afterward?

 

Bioware choices are artificially-built "moral" questions, trying to justify them dishing out points. It's only a game after all.

[toliman]

yes, i too thought this quest deserved it's time. in every decision in the entire tree, your choices are constricted, and your actions are always going to be wrong, even if it rewards LS.

 

the first few times, it was a real quandary, but now, i expect a brief cognitive dissonance, and i'll go with my playthrough goal, or what my current companion thinks. there's a few times where i've just said, i'll go with what my companion thinks i should do, because they mean more than this decision does in the long run.

 

ord mantell has a bonehead runaway child quest, taris has the lovers, which is high-larious, everyone goes for the crystal,

 

the empire's dissonant quandaries are kind of lame, do you kill a father or set a carnvorous beast up to attack sith graduates ... it's also a parallel to the sith revanites, almost any decision there puts you in conflict with your own value system, until after then end, and you can comfortably betray people, it's back to normal.

 

i haven't really played LS on empire, to see if there's a significance or cost, other than "here's LS points, and 13 credits for saving my life", vs "here's 93 credits and some grey trash that sells for 50 credits" and the DS points. i'd expect LS on empire is "well intentioned casual murder" , where you kill 200 villagers, then enter a house, kill their guards hand over some rice to the family for LS points, offer the chance to surrender/hide, , then kill more guards and family members on the way out.

 

brutal violence and senseless charity. seems like a balance.

[jgelling]

When I did this quest on my Sage, I went with the Light option - let the Senator raise his issue in the Senate, have the debate, and let the democratically elected Senators decide on it. The reasoning was that the Republic is democratic (ok I know that technically Republics are not democratic institutions by default, but this is not a PoliSci class...).

 

Even though the Senator is himself abusing and subverting democratic principle with his decision to place the "True Republic" or whatever they are called on a Senate Security watch list so they could not get in and make trouble (where presumably their democratic right as citizens is to attend and watch over the Senatorial discussions). My philosophy there is that a wrong act (taking the package) to save the Republic does not balance out his wrong act (excluding free citizens from the democratic process simply because they voiciferously disagree with his ideals). In that light, I would consider the choice made by the Sage to be the Light Sided choice - allowing free expression even when it is against my own opinions and against what I am sure is the correct option.

 

In contrast, my Trooper had a much simpler approach - take the parcel and the Dark Side points. The Senators are a bunch of f*cktard idiots who should let Havoc Squad get on with wiping out the Imperials one Sith/Soldier at a time, and who cannot be trusted to make the right decision (voting down such an idiotic proposal) without the ordinary people of Coruscant being there to remind them of the correct decision.

 

If it weren't a time of war and the Senator wasn't conspiring with an enemy, then interfering in the democratic process would be wrong. But unfortunately for the makers of this quest, free speech and democracy doesn't include the right to commit treason or something very close to it.

 

I agree with the OP: it's not morally right to allow a Senator to betray the very Republic he serves. You don't have the right to commit treason or conspire with the enemy, even - especially - if you're a Senator.

 

There should be a dark side option to Force Persuade the page to forget he saw you (a gross abuse of the Force), but the overall quest to stop the traitorous Senator should award light side points, IMNSHO.

Edited April 26, 2012 by jgelling

[Ranadiel_Marius]

If it weren't a time of war and the Senator wasn't conspiring with an enemy, then interfering in the democratic process would be wrong. But unfortunately for the makers of this quest, free speech and democracy doesn't include the right to commit treason or something very close to it.

 

I agree with the OP: it's not morally right to allow a Senator to betray the very Republic he serves. You don't have the right to commit treason or conspire with the enemy, even - especially - if you're a Senator.

 

There should be a dark side option to Force Persuade the page to forget he saw you (a gross abuse of the Force), but the overall quest to stop the traitorous Senator should award light side points, IMNSHO.

 

The Republic isn't at war at the time of this quest! A peace treaty is in place. The Senator is trying to create a stronger peace by easing tensions with a galactic power that they are currently at peace with. That is not treason. That is not even close to treason. Incredibly stupid from a meta-perspective? Yes because as palyers we have a deeper understanding of the Sith than the average character does. An action being stupid does not make it treason though.

[jgelling]

The Republic isn't at war at the time of this quest! A peace treaty is in place. The Senator is trying to create a stronger peace by easing tensions with a galactic power that they are currently at peace with. That is not treason. That is not even close to treason. Incredibly stupid from a meta-perspective? Yes because as palyers we have a deeper understanding of the Sith than the average character does. An action being stupid does not make it treason though.

 

Ehhh, a treaty extracted at gunpoint and provocations across the galaxy. It's hardly a time of peace. The Senate page even hints at the evil intentions of the Senator (his ideology will win - what does that mean??) and then offers a bribe and an offer to lie for the Jedi, and accepting all that is still the light side choice.

 

Yeah, it's incredibly naive - I don't see why the light side has to be as naive as a 3 year old waiting for Santa Claus. And the Senate page is incredibly sleezy for a "light" side offer.

 

So just to be clear, going with the authoritarian (or whatever his ideology is, which his aide says will win in the end) pro-Imperial Senator and his corrupt aide, taking a bribe and handing off forged documents instead is the "right" thing to do, and siding with the pro-democracy, wrongly watch-listed child of war heroes is the "wrong" thing to do and the path to the dark side. Hmm...

 

If this were real life, what would you do, asssuming you're not really a Sith Lord IRL? I can see the "let democracy work" argument, but whichever way you slice it Bioware did a bad job drawing the line between light and dark on this quest. You could argue it either way convincingly, democracy vs practicality, free speech vs the greater good.

 

If you go light here, you're sacrificing real lives for a very absolutist interpretation of what democracy is. Doesn't democracy include the rights of the citizens to be informed about what their representatives are really up to? What does that Senator have to hide, after all? You're not really silencing his point of view - you're bringing it to light when he'd rather hide what he's up to.

 

At least BW acknowledges the fuzzy line in that T7 approves the dark side option, which is very rare for the droid. T7 is smarter than the light side hippies that would protect a Senator's secret dealings with the Empire.

Edited April 26, 2012 by jgelling

[Darth_Moonshadow]

Jedi believe in Truth above all else.

 

ABOVE ALL ELSE!

 

They believe that the truth must be known for the proper decisions to be made.

 

Lying will ALWAYS be darkside.

 

[Kaisernick]

does this really need 13 pages?

 

democracy is about letting people who no matter how bad their ideas are be allowed to express them.

 

by forcing that senator to abide by YOUR interpration of things thats is a dictatorship.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Kaisernick

[Ranadiel_Marius]

Ehhh, a treaty extracted at gunpoint and provocations across the galaxy. It's hardly a time of peace. The Senate page even hints at the evil intentions of the Senator (his ideology will win - what does that mean??) and then offers a bribe and an offer to lie for the Jedi, and accepting all that is still the light side choice.

 

 

The Senate Page never makes any comments about the Senator's ideology. Nor does he ever use the word win. Also he never bribes you. If anyone is bribing you it is the True Republic since they are the ones who pay you no matter which side you choose.

 

So just to be clear, going with the authoritarian (or whatever his ideology is, which his aide says will win in the end) pro-Imperial Senator and his corrupt aide, taking a bribe and handing off forged documents instead is the "right" thing to do, and siding with the pro-democracy, wrongly watch-listed child of war heroes is the "wrong" thing to do and the path to the dark side. Hmm...

And that is hardly how I would characterize it. I'd put it as the lightsided choice is to let a naive politician express his views that are seeking a way to create an everlasting peace through diplomatic channels. The darksided choice is to be paid by a terrorist group, that cares more about their hatred for the Sith than the future of the Republic, to obstruct the political process of the Republic because they think they know more about how things should be than the legitimate government.

 

If this were real life, what would you do, asssuming you're not really a Sith Lord IRL? I can see the "let democracy work" argument, but whichever way you slice it Bioware did a bad job drawing the line between light and dark on this quest. You could argue it either way convincingly, democracy vs practicality, free speech vs the greater good.

 

If you go light here, you're sacrificing real lives for a very absolutist interpretation of what democracy is. Doesn't democracy include the rights of the citizens to be informed about what their representatives are really up to? What does that Senator have to hide, after all? You're not really silencing his point of view - you're bringing it to light when he'd rather hide what he's up to.

In real life I wouldn't accept the quest because I am not about to commit a felony for a bunch of terrorists who believe they are above the law.

 

And no you really can't argue it either way. Both of the arguments you put forth "democracy vs practicality, free speech vs the greater good" are basically LS v DS arguments. LS is about idealism. DS is about practicality.....and wanton destruction. If you have to resort to a "greater good" argument you are basically admiting that the choice you are making is evil(or in Star Wars DS).

 

And you don't sacrifice any lives if you choose LS. He isn't inviting the Empire to invade, he is trying to prevent a future outbreak of war(and he fails to win the Senate so what he was proposing ends up ahving no impact).

[KorinHyvek]

From a legal perspective,the senator has done nothing wrong. You can argue it's ethically wrong, but breaking the law by stealing his private documentation is also a breach of ethics here. Why? Umm... Let me use a very, very famous example here. Watergate. You're the burglar here.

 

This is really not that complex, people.

[jgelling]

The Senate Page never makes any comments about the Senator's ideology. Nor does he ever use the word win. Also he never bribes you. If anyone is bribing you it is the True Republic since they are the ones who pay you no matter which side you choose.

 

You can watch the dialog with the Senate page here, from 6 minutes+:

 

 

The Senate Page refers to Senator Parvil's work, calls any mention of the "true republic" drivel, and then says, "you may slow us down, but we will see his plans become reality", and these plans he even admits are unpopular.

 

It's a matter of interpretation what those "plans" are and why public knowledge of them would be so unpopular, but to me the dialogue with the Senate page basically confirms the true Republic group is telling the truth about what the Senator's up to. Perhaps it's the voice actor who to me sounds more sleezy than righteous in his indignation at stealing the parcel, but this thread - and comments on this quest at various SWTOR sites - confirms that for a lot of people, the light side choice isn't the right choice.

 

From a legal perspective,the senator has done nothing wrong. You can argue it's ethically wrong, but breaking the law by stealing his private documentation is also a breach of ethics here. Why? Umm... Let me use a very, very famous example here. Watergate. You're the burglar here.

Actually, the Senator did put his political opponents on a terrorist watch list, and he is conducting his own negotiations with the Sith Empire, which in many countries would be outside the boundaries of what a legislative official could do and an abuse of office.

 

As for the Watergate comparison, the Watergate burglars were trying to wiretap the Democratic party headquarters to find out what their political strategy was - it was pure espionage solely to gain a political advantage.

 

Here at least you're searching for evidence of political misconduct. It's still not legal, but it's not just dirty tricks to win a campaign. It is a search for evidence, which is a lot more than the Watergate burglars were after. And the Senate page and his discussion of the Senator's unpopular "plans" doesn't exactly assure you that there isn't some evidence in that parcel, but the game admittedly doesn't say, exactly, you've found a smoking gun.

 

In any event, regardless of what you think of anything else that happens in this quest, you are awarded light side points for lying to the political reformer. Lying is almost never a light side option, and yet it is here. That part of the mission is at least strange. If you buy the whole sacrosanct political argument, then the "light side" option should be to go back and tell the truth to the nice orphaned political reformer and receive nothing at all for standing by your principles, the way you often get no reward in KOTOR for refusing to finish quests.

Edited April 26, 2012 by jgelling