The penalties for losing are TOO severe

[DakataTan]

 

Rewarding only a small portion of PVP participants at the expense of a whole lot of 'normal' gamers is just killing the game intentionally.

 

 

u mean 50%?

 

There's always a winning side. It's almost like they are encouraging, wait for it, you to win. Madness!

 

This ain't 2nd grade where u get a trophy for turning up.

[Tohelanbak]

Sry couldnt resist. I for one never quit pre 1.2 and had a similar attitude, but post 1.2..... well.

 

Quitting doesn't teach you how to play better, Quitting forces someone else that is solo queing to suffer in your stead.

 

Damn straight it does. "suffering" is not fun.. why would I pay to suffer?

Quitting makes you bad. Quitting makes sure you never ever learn how to work WITH a team.

 

Most losses I come by are because the "team" aspect you speak of is nonexistant. So I leave to find a better team

 

Quitter NEVER win. Quitters are the worst case of losers, and shall never grow in knowledge or skill.

 

you know, I did notice I forgot how to play after I started quitting

 

You still get 3 tokens towards the weekly, some tokens towards your loot, and HEY if you were paying attention to the GOALS of the scenario, you were earning more medals. Fancy that.

 

Ooh a medal.. thank god I got that instead of creds or comms

 

It's rare that I see less than 90 commendations even in a losing match. Wonder why that is...

 

I call BS

 

 

granted I am a pug who goes at it solo so half the time I get into a losing match already started.. why on earth would I stay?

Edited April 16, 2012 by Tohelanbak

[Heideggar]

Quitting doesn't teach you how to play better, Quitting forces someone else that is solo queing to suffer in your stead.

 

Quitting makes you bad. Quitting makes sure you never ever learn how to work WITH a team.

 

Quitter NEVER win. Quitters are the worst case of losers, and shall never grow in knowledge or skill.

 

You still get 3 tokens towards the weekly, some tokens towards your loot, and HEY if you were paying attention to the GOALS of the scenario, you were earning more medals. Fancy that.

 

It's rare that I see less than 90 commendations even in a losing match. Wonder why that is...

 

Quitting doesn't teach you how to play better, but how does losing teach you how to play better? someone who solo'queues can leave the group instantly without any detriment. There is no suffering unless they wish that upon themselves.

 

Quiting may hinder my overall ability to work with others, but that's not necessarily my goal. I don't get rewards for making a group work well together. Sure, working together will add benefits to the group and raise our success rate, but what about those who refuse to work as a team? Is that my responsibility now? No.

 

Quitters never win? lol, actually they do. Whoever told you that must have been a very optimistic person. Quitters who fight another day, with a more prepared group, do win. I suppose you're not up to speed on modern warfare and tactics.

 

Oh yeah! 3 tokens toward the weekly! 3 out of 150. Oh, btw, mine only increases on wins. Dunno if it's a bug ( I put in a ticket with no response ). Many have said it is not, but since i haven't read an official response I'll at least give the benefit of the doubt.

 

You talk about losing matches... well, if you got 90, you must have been pretty exceptional during the match, but you need to remember... rewards are based on medals as well as time spent in the warzones. If you enter late, or run mechanics, you're hosed.

 

Oh, you scored 5 times and got 3 medals? You just got some dirt and a peace of cardboard. grats brah!

 

The current PvP system is absolutely terrible. The folks in my guild who liked to PvP just find something else to do every day. They don't even want to Play swtor PvP. They used to PvP a lot....

 

I'll keep raiding, but once raiding gets old I'll probably unsub. Sick and tired of devs being retarded.

[Gorrdan]

Quitting doesn't teach you how to play better, Quitting forces someone else that is solo queing to suffer in your stead.

 

Quitting makes you bad. Quitting makes sure you never ever learn how to work WITH a team.

 

Quitter NEVER win. Quitters are the worst case of losers, and shall never grow in knowledge or skill.

 

You still get 3 tokens towards the weekly, some tokens towards your loot, and HEY if you were paying attention to the GOALS of the scenario, you were earning more medals. Fancy that.

 

It's rare that I see less than 90 commendations even in a losing match. Wonder why that is...

 

90 comms in losing match? you think we are that stupid? zero comms if you were walked all over by opposition, 15 to 20 is an average for losing match badly, 30 to 40 if your team was able to fight back moderately and 50 only when matches end up very close.

 

I rarely get 100 with 12 medals and a win and you are telling us 90 comms for losing a match? hahahahah.... stop making a fool of yourself by spouting lies dude.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Gorrdan

[Hyarmendacil]

At first people were not content since medals were the prime indicator on how many commendations, valour and credits you got, winning or losing a game was secondary. I have seen quite a few posts of people dissatisfied with this system and I agree that victory or defeat needed to have more of an impact.

 

Now changes have been made, and winning or losing suddenly has a dramatic impact on the proceeds you make out of a game. It looks to me commendations are cut by 50%, added to that you make no money if your team is defeated. It strikes me as a dramatic overreaction on part of BW and I can imagine it puts a lot of people off.

 

Simply put, to convince people it is worth their time to play (if commendation/valour and credits are their prime motivation, I just like a good scrap) you have to offer an incentive. Another point is that people like recognition if they gave a good account of themselves, even if they lost.

 

I think having 80% of all gains dependent on medals and the remaining 20% on a victory is a much better situation. Folks who fight hard and well will still receive a decent reward while winning offers enough of a bonus to be inclined to contribute meaningfully to the team.

 

You might even combine this with a short WZ lockout for leavers, but I don't think this will adress the issue much. Besides, I have had plenty of pug games where people left with snide comments to actually be replaced by capable folks whose contributions helped the team win a victory.

 

Just my two cents...

[Erikusz]

u mean 50%?

 

There's always a winning side. It's almost like they are encouraging, wait for it, you to win. Madness!

 

This ain't 2nd grade where u get a trophy for turning up.

 

No not 50%. Yesterday I played 20 warzones and did not win a single match. So no, its not like you win a match and you lose a match. Everyone knows it doesn't work like that.

[Morveth]

After a few days trying, and loosing 80% of every WZ with no reward, given the fact that now everybody leaves loosing warzones (and I do not blame people for doing that), and with no comments from BW so far, I have canceled my sub too.

 

A pity, but BW has killed a game which promised a lot.

[robotkar]

The new PVP Medals system is completely broken.

 

I had 9 medals last match, and we lost, so i got 40 commendations...

 

If we had won, that would have been 100..

 

They punish the losing team too much, to an extent that there is NO point in hanging around if you know you're not going to win...

 

The winners get to gear up, leaving the losers behind, rinse, repeat.. Soon on ever server you're going to get one faction completely dominant in terms of gear..

 

The system is entirely broken.

 

 

You think it was bad with people leaving OPS < 1.2. It's going to be a lot worse now.

 

CORRECT THIS IMMEDIATELY, BIOWARE.

 

Correct!

 

Especially that republic loses majority of the matches in avarage. Another imperial boost

[Erikusz]

Simply put, to convince people it is worth their time to play (if commendation/valour and credits are their prime motivation, I just like a good scrap) you have to offer an incentive. Another point is that people like recognition if they gave a good account of themselves, even if they lost.

 

I think having 80% of all gains dependent on medals and the remaining 20% on a victory is a much better situation. Folks who fight hard and well will still receive a decent reward while winning offers enough of a bonus to be inclined to contribute meaningfully to the team.

 

Of course I want commedations/valour/credits. I want to work on my character, so he can become real good. What's wrong with that?

 

And what's wrong with giving the losers something for their time? You know I always make a real effort to win a match, but most of the time it's just not up to me. I have to be lucky enough to get placed in a team with good players.

 

When I win, do I care if the losers get something for their effort? No, I'm happy for them. Get some new gear, try a different spec, whatever keeps you playing, whatever keeps the game fun. Fun is not hours and hours of work for a couple of lousy bracers.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Erikusz

[NIGHTRUS]

My first wz in 1.2 I was heal spec sorc, I got 0 everything. I was shocked. My next wz after ranting about this, player named craig on Mindtrick said I think the game is telling you to quit. I agree.

[Legolose]

You honestly want to be rewarded for failing!? How about we just cry until BW just gives us the endgame armour without having to do anything but walk into the operation and say boo to the bosses till they give up the shiney's.

 

You are the 99%, don't want to work for rewards just get everything handed to you because you wanted to play.

 

As a note, I am not an elitest nor am I in any way a PVP God, I am a mediocre player and I'm not crying about anything. Well anything other than there are way to many servers for the amount of sub's for the game.

Well said

[Hyarmendacil]

Of course I want commedations/valour/credits. I want to work on my character, so he can become real good. What's wrong with that?

 

And what's wrong with giving the losers something for their time? You know I always make a real effort to win a match, but most of the time it's just not up to me. I have to be lucky enough to get placed in a team with good players.

 

When I win, do I care if the losers get something for their effort? No, I'm happy for them. Get some new gear, try a different spec, whatever keeps you playing, whatever keeps the game fun. Fun is not hours and hours of work for a couple of lousy bracers.

 

There is nothing wrong with that, if you read my comments I think we are in agreement. The penalties are harsh at the moment for losing a game, I'd rather have more casual players being encouraged to participate in the WZs and acquiring decent equipment by diminishing the penalties for losing while still making it enough of an issue to encourage people to do their best for a victory. The more people the merrier imho.

 

Cheers!

[Mc_Gregor]

I pvp quite a lot and I know that Ill get where I want sooner or later. Having said that- yesterday I lost Navarre Coast game by a small margin, their base had like 22% when our went down to 0. I had 11 medals in that WZ thanks to being paired up with my sorceror friend. That round totalled me around 60 commendations. Just trying to put you into perspective how many comms will you get for a "good" but lost WZ. That guy who claimed earlier to have had 90 comms on a lost match just gave me a good laugh.

[Erikusz]

There is nothing wrong with that, if you read my comments I think we are in agreement. The penalties are harsh at the moment for losing a game, I'd rather have more casual players being encouraged to participate in the WZs and acquiring decent equipment by diminishing the penalties for losing while still making it enough of an issue to encourage people to do their best for a victory. The more people the merrier imho.

 

Cheers!

 

Yes I see. I think I misunderstood. Good that we are in agreement. But then I wonder: Why did they change the PVP reward-system? What was wrong with the old system? I just don't get it. Why did they mess this up?

[Hyarmendacil]

I pvp quite a lot and I know that Ill get where I want sooner or later. Having said that- yesterday I lost Navarre Coast game by a small margin, their base had like 22% when our went down to 0. I had 11 medals in that WZ thanks to being paired up with my sorceror friend. That round totalled me around 60 commendations. Just trying to put you into perspective how many comms will you get for a "good" but lost WZ. That guy who claimed earlier to have had 90 comms on a lost match just gave me a good laugh.

 

I don't think close matches are a problem. When you fight hard, do your part, but are eventually defeated you can still net a decent amount of commendations under the 1.2 system which is in my view acceptable, even though it is a bit meagre sometimes.

 

I think the problem lies with the rather lopsided affairs where people are royally creamed. Bad impressions are a lot more powerful then good impressions is my experience, and when folks participate in a game in which they have no chance of winning, and worse still, get royally whipped in every combat situation they find themselves in, the current system offers no worthwhile reward. Of course you can argue the defeated players deserve no reward but enough incentive may encourage people to shrug and queue up again, while lack of an incentive will discourage folks to do so. After all, they invested their time and gave it a try.

 

In my view this is the danger of pugging, but pre 1.2 you could at least salvage something out of situations like these. That does no longer seem to be the case, which seems to discourage people.

[Nureddin]

Yesterday, Sunday, I played PVP many times.

 

First of all, for some weird reason my team was always outnumbered since the beginning. There were 100+ players in my facction on server. All the time the team started with 4(!) people against 6+ on the opposing side. Two times I ended the battle with 3 people on team because of deserters.

 

With such number difference the victory chance is very bad.

After several matches (about 8-10), all defeats, I quit.

 

The best result was a 2nd place with 48 commendations. In the end after several battles I could not sum 250 commendations for battles were I was always outnumbered.

 

Why did the battles start with such numerical difference? Why did the difference last the entire match? Why in a battle against all odds the players who stay are punished with 0 or 20-30 commendations?

[Stylez]

......

 

Why did the battles start with such numerical difference? Why did the difference last the entire match? Why in a battle against all odds the players who stay are punished with 0 or 20-30 commendations?

 

Because for some unknown reason that is excatly how BW wants it to be. And from the lack of discussion from them, it is clear they believe it to be RIGHT. So, our options are to suck it up like fanbois and love it, or leave it and not play pvp. I choose the 2nd and leave PVP to the fanbois.

[Brownnoise]

People seem to forget that the old system relied on you winning to finish your dailies/weeklies for progress (bags) or astronomical comms costs to get the gear, with the new system you are earning gear whilst losing, losing every match and meeting the medal threshold in 1.2 is much better than losing before. (the wh gear is a horrible grind but that's only until rateds are released).

 

People need to stop crying and demanding rewards for failure.

 

The team numbers difference does need to go though.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Brownnoise

[Painted]

People seem to forget that the old system relied on you winning to finish your dailies/weeklies for progress (bags) or astronomical comms costs to get the gear, with the new system you are earning gear whilst losing, losing every match and meeting the medal threshold in 1.2 is much better than losing before. (the wh gear is a horrible grind but that's only until rateds are released).

 

People need to stop crying and demanding rewards for failure.

 

The team numbers difference does need to go though.

 

Pre 1.2 the reward system was much better when you get 40 coms for a loss now and around 100 for a win where Pre 1.2 you were getting around 86 for a loss and then there is a huge issue. If you want play that game take away the daily reward and just up the comms per match to back where they were pre 1.2 that would be a far better system and would not matter on wins or losses because hate to break it to you but the daily still requires you to win 3 to get the daily reward which is 99 rated 99 unrated WZ comms. So this new system sucks and based on the queue times on my server a majority of the pvp playerbase agree's

[Malanoth]

I've tried to remain objective and not knee-jerk about these changes and up until today I think I have been, but I will concede that I had come down on the side of Bioware. However, following my experience earlier I have now decided this new system is way too harsh on players.

 

Today I have played two WZ's that had already started, which is fair enough. The problem was my team managed to win both of these games that I joined late. The first one I played for about 9-10 minutes, the second about 6-7 minutes. As always I played for the team, not myself so followed general tacs being called out. I only managed to get 2 medals in both matches (I get 7 to 12 most full games). So having made some contribution to both matches I walked away from them with nothing. Nada, Zero. What the.... ?

 

This is just plain wrong. I love PvP (no matter what MMO it is) But in SWTOR now the player is grossly penalised for making an effort and winning? BW, you need to rethink this PvP reward scheme. I get where you're coming from with the incentive for players to make an effort in team-based PvP, but this is not right. The system needs tweaking. I take back what I said on my previous posts and I for one will not playing this game quite so much now because I find this rather annoying. I am supposed to have fun, unwind, relax, escape, get something for my effort and time spent in-game and evolve my characters. Then you pull this stunt. Nah, sorry.

 

I have never in my gaming life played an MMO where you get penalised for Winning.

 

The OP's post title needs changing to;

 

"The penalties for losing (and sometimes winning) are TOO severe."

[Sailfish]

Oh yeah, did we mention that the commendation system is broken? I am not gonna read all post so far to see if someone already mentioned it but here goes.

 

BW, please explain why sometimes only gaining 10-12 medals I get 100 - 110 commendations while gaining 18 only rewards for 84? For me there seem to be no logic in this at all.

 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/38127477/After%20Patch%201.2.png

 

(my char is Shadowfang)

 

Also, I really do not see the point why you are so harsh with the distribution of the Commendation points between losers and winners.

 

I think that everyone who is queuing for a WZ match should get practically the same (with a little difference between winners and losers). In the end, is it not important that we all, and I mean real hardcore PvP'ers (because casual ones will drop off), battle each other on equal terms and with equal arms? PvP is in my opinion about who has the better skills or tactics. To me there is no glory in killing some kind of newcomer with 2 blows just because

.

 

Also, imagine that you are starting out this (now broken) game and you just reached lvl 50. I can't imagine the hardship the guy or girl will have to endure to finally get his BM / WH gear so he can start make a difference on the playing field.

 

Seriously, Balance the Game, do not focus to much on commendations...

Edited April 16, 2012 by Sailfish

[Exartess]

Look back at PvP at game launch. It didn't serve one crowd of people. Instead it was rewarding and inclusive. It allowed everyone to play for THEIR OWN REASON. One person was leveling while the next was making credits. Some were after Valor rank and titles. Still others were farming comms for a chance at Champion gear from the bags. Was this system perfect? No but it was dynamic and appealed to everyone.

 

Now our PvP has a singular purpose and it no longer serves as an activity that benfits a wide range of people. Now it serves the Hard Core PvPer who is after a Ranking. That is it. Wins earn rank, gear, and credits. Losses earn nothing because you will not advance unless you win. That is how ranked competition works.

 

So as far as I can figure (IMO):

If you are trying to level, a ranked pvp system is not the place to do it.

If you are trying to earn credits, a ranked pvp systme is not the place to do it.

If you are trying to have casual pvp fun, a ranked pvp system is not the place to do it.

If you are trying to establish your pvp ranking then this is the place for you.

(edit: althought actual ranking is not active yet the game it was meant to be a part of is)

 

Honestly I am not happy with the change because I feel like PvP has been hyjacked by one of its special interest groups at the expense of an extreamly fun in game activity.

 

I like PvP and I will participate at lvl 50 for the purpose of ranked PvP gameplay. But I will not enter into any more matches while I level my army of Legacy alts. I will not PUG at 50 either as that the stakes for loosing are too high. The reason for this isnt because I'm a poor looser. It is because the Time to Benifit ratio in 1.2 is terrible. Winning is all that matters now so until I can stack the odds in favor of a win, I will invest my valuable time elsewhere. Others will do the same and PvP will grow stale and suffer.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Exartess

[LexiCazam]

Hi everyone,

 

If you haven't seen it yet, please note that Lead Game Designer Daniel Erickson has posted this:

 

On Warzone Scoring and Rewards

 

Hey folks,

 

There's been a lot of discussion about the changes to the Warzone rewards system in Game Update 1.2 and the type of play style that it encourages. I wanted to help out a bit and point out a major change not all players may have noticed and share some of our plans.

 

First of all, rest assured we are keeping a close watch on the results of our reward changes to Warzones in 1.2 and we will continue to pull constant metrics to make sure they are going in the right direction as players get used to the new rules.

 

To refresh everyone's memories, one of the most important aspects of the new changes is that your team's performance inside the Warzone has a direct impact on a portion of the rewards you are given at the end of the Warzone. Even if your team is losing, the closer you can make the game the better your rewards will be - so don't give up hope! Giving up and letting the other team 'win faster' is now the worst possible route you can take to rewards.

 

Secondly, one of the things we have already identified to fix is to reduce the minimum amount of medals a player must receive to gain any reward at all. Currently that value is three (3), and we are going to reduce that to only needing one (1) medal to gain rewards. This should make sure we cover that all important backfill player while still protecting against the freeloaders.

 

As we move forward, we will continue to meet and discuss other possible changes based on the feedback here on the Forums as well as the data coming in from the live servers. As always, we appreciate your comments and want to hear from you.

 

Cheers!

[Dracosz]

Hi everyone,

 

If you haven't seen it yet, please note that Lead Game Designer Daniel Erickson has posted this:

 

On Warzone Scoring and Rewards

 

 

 

Cheers!

 

 

That's fine and great to hear!

 

My concern, however is that players who earn 14+ Medals on the losing team still earn only ~40 comms while players on the winning team with 8 medals earn 90+. That disparity is just not acceptable.

 

Player effort and performance should matter a lot more than they do now when rewards are meted out.

[DroidDreamer]

Glad to hear about the changes in rewards, but I still want to provide my constructuve feedback so I can help make this a better game.

 

Bioware:

 

--Relaxed the rules for Warzones, allowing more matches between premades and PUGs.

--Relaxed the numberic requirements in Warzones, allowing matches between small groups against full groups.

--Increased DPS output via the Expertise state, favoring well-geared players.

--Decreased dramatically the rewards for sticking it out in a match.

 

Together with the changes in rewards, the effect of these changes favor well-geared players and teams, making it more likely that they get better rewards while often giving little or nothing to players who stick it out. This is especially bad for PUG'ers who stick it out when their team gives up or who join late because others have previously given up. Lumping PUGs with pre-mades and numerically imbalanced teams is obviously calculated to address long que times and smaller or imbalanced server populations. Ideally, matches would be teamed by experience and/or gear, not matching pros against lowbies in less-than-complete groups.

 

As for objective based play: While WZ objective medals have been improved, a lot of objective-based play is not rewarded specifically, including:

 

--Well-timed snares, roots and stuns, particularly in Huttball

--Area-denial, for those few classes that have it, this, again, can be a great tool in Huttball but can also prevent capping of points.

 

These and other techniques (it's not a complete summary of objective-based play that is not measured in the reward system), with the right team, can make a huge difference. But they don't add up to medals or high damage counts. Meanwhile, one can rack up tons of DPS in a grindfest on one point that never changes throughout the WZ and score high points. So let's be cautious when discussing playing to objectives. There are times that spend most of my time running between the two defense points on Voidstar keeping Plasma Probe on one -- preventing capping -- while actually shooting the guys trying to plant the bomb because oftentimes my teammates are racking up their DPS away from the defense point. That's objective based play but the reward system does not reflect that.