Nerfs for...more fun?

[Coyotecalls]

I A DPS NERF coupled with a Armor nerf makes the class practically usless. except for healing.

 

Working as intended my friend, working as intended.

[TUXs]

As someone who was constantly being ripped apart in PVP by Grav round, I'm pretty sure it needed to happen. Your win button is no more, stop QQing and learn to adapt. Inquisitors lost the use of our highest DPS spec and got hosed on healing. You got one spell reduced, count yourself lucky...

 

You couldn't even force speed away from a trooper before they cut you down with grav round. Now at least there -is- a fight.

 

But if you miss it so much level a warrior/jedi they are just as bad as troopers ever where.

I played my level 28 in PVP just for fun while waiting for one of my guildies I was leveling with and holy crap, I ripped people up.

If you were being ripped apart by a Commando before, I'm guessing you may simply be bad, or just not understand how interrupts work. Which is it?

[Inncarnate]

oh my god can u people please read clearly before u spam ur cry baby responses its seriously just annoying! At no point was it ever written "reduce the amount u use grave round!" what there doing ultimately is forcing u to learn how to play the class in a way that suits you and not some generic build that every commando has, and its something that was needed for both the commando and merc and i should know i play both. For those that pve ur actual dmg reduction isn't that great, almost not noticeable though a talent to reduce the cooldown on demo round would be nice similar to the assassins discharge talent cooldown, and for those that pvp claiming ur weak u need to pull ur head in, at no point is a merc or commando "weak" heavy armor, aoe,self heals,fast single target dmg learn to play the damned class! An example of a weakish pvp toon compaired to all classes is the assassin/shadow yes they have stealth and stuns and decent dps for the first rotation but unless there tank spec survivability is minimal. Thank you BW from the ppl that can stand back and look at the whole picture and not just one small reduction on a single skill, who would have thought it was the end of the world lol

[Coraine]

I must say though... Bioware's logic is astounding, if grav round was nerfed to counter brainless spamming being viable on the commando's part....

 

then where is the force lightning nerf?

[TheNinjaboy]

For clarity, the purpose of the change was to address the issue that Grav Round, on its own, was responsible for too much of your overall DPS. In other words, using totally made up numbers, if all you did was mindlessly spam Grav Round, you could still achieve something like 85% (again, totally made up) of your total damage dealing potential.

 

Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round.

 

Arsenal Mercs are broken. You are hemmoranging subs faster then Funcom's AoC three months after launch.

 

Commandos and Mercs need some defensive abilities vs. Melee / Stunlocks / Interrupts, etc.

 

It's absolutely absurd.

 

Furthermore you need to address Grav Round / Tracer Missle.

 

Allow other effects to stack key debuffs / buffs of the Arsenal.

 

The damage nerf was closer to 50% then 10% fyi. Nothing was "re-balanced" to make up for that loss.

[Glorionn]

Arsenal Mercs are broken. You are hemmoranging subs faster then Funcom's AoC three months after launch.

 

Commandos and Mercs need some defensive abilities vs. Melee / Stunlocks / Interrupts, etc.

 

It's absolutely absurd.

 

Furthermore you need to address Grav Round / Tracer Missle.

 

Allow other effects to stack key debuffs / buffs of the Arsenal.

 

The damage nerf was closer to 50% then 10% fyi. Nothing was "re-balanced" to make up for that loss.

 

Are you saying our total DPS nerf was closer to 50% than 10%?

[ArchangelLBC]

There's no way that's true. Exaggerating the truth is gonna get us nowhere.

 

 

Obviously I have no clue where we were at before but I can get a pretty consistent 1100 DPS without buffs except rakata stim over an 8 minute parse and I'm still trying to balance out my rotation and figure out if my on use relic ultimately adds more DPS than the Dark Spike one.

 

 

I still miss my 3k crits, and Full Auto is kind of a double edged sword on ammo since it takes your ammo before the channel instead of after like Grav Round, but with a little adjustment I'm fine.

 

I'm just a PVE player though. I agree in PVP we need SOMETHING defensive. Even in PVE I'm noticing that nerf to charged barrier.

[DarthVindictus]

That is correct. However, I'll repeat, the reduction in Grav Round damage was made to address how much damage Grav Round contributes to your total rotation - not to address how many times you press the Grav Round button. Players have run off with the idea that we're trying to eliminate Grav Round spamming, which is not the case. My goal has been to eliminate how effective Grav Round spamming is if it's all you do.

 

An effective Gunnery rotation still utilizes Grav Round as both a "build up" ability and a "resource dump" ability. That hasn't changed, nor was it my goal to change that. What has changed is that competitive DPS now comes from utilizing all of your key rotational abilities instead of leaning so very heavily on just Grav Round. I hope that's more clear now.

 

10% more on demo round (15s cooldown skill) does not make up for 10% less on a no cooldown skill.

The increased proc chance on full auto also does not quite do it, as you still have a 6 second limit on it. Overall damage is still lower than it was before and there's nothing we can do about it.

 

Except cancel our accounts.

 

With the last 2 characters I leveled up being a mercenary and a commando, and my other character being a Juggernaut, and I have no desire to tank and melee hate is too much to effectively use as DPS (I feel like I'm weighing down my group every time I run an instance with them because I know my damage isn't as high as theirs and I'm higher maintenance damage due to being melee)...

 

What do you think I opted to do?

 

 

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[Tothjowii]

I swear 50% of the people that are complaining about this subject just bug the hell out of me ...Yes im bugged that Bioware somewhat nerfed the amount of crit dps Gav round can do that part is true. But in retrospect Bioware made its cool down a lot faster so you can spam it even more and get the stacks up faster. Before 1.2 was my biggest pet peeve. Now we can super spam it faster then more to demo round full auto and so forth which apparently wasn't on the troopers rotation before this change.

 

What im trying so say is every game messes with there classes some of them more than others than some but happens and we need to learn to go with it so try to keep an open mind.

[Arzoo]

I swear 50% of the people that are complaining about this subject just bug the hell out of me ...Yes im bugged that Bioware somewhat nerfed the amount of crit dps Gav round can do that part is true. But in retrospect Bioware made its cool down a lot faster so you can spam it even more and get the stacks up faster. Before 1.2 was my biggest pet peeve. Now we can super spam it faster then more to demo round full auto and so forth which apparently wasn't on the troopers rotation before this change.

 

What im trying so say is every game messes with there classes some of them more than others than some but happens and we need to learn to go with it so try to keep an open mind.

 

Sometimes I feel that these forums are proof of alternate realities. It's really the only explanation for posts like these. These people cannot be experiencing the same reality I am.

[Asavar]

From the patch notes, "Grav Round has been rebalanced in order to encourage more active gameplay rotations."

 

So they nerfed commandos to make them have a rotation that's more fun?

 

I've seen this kind of logic since EQ. I guess game developers will never learn.

 

Was there some outcry from the commando community to change their rotation?

 

Maybe these idiots shouldn't have nerfed other abilities that COULD be used to "add" to the gameplay rotation.

 

I swear 50% of the people that are complaining about this subject just bug the hell out of me ...Yes im bugged that Bioware somewhat nerfed the amount of crit dps Gav round can do that part is true. But in retrospect Bioware made its cool down a lot faster so you can spam it even more and get the stacks up faster. Before 1.2 was my biggest pet peeve. Now we can super spam it faster then more to demo round full auto and so forth which apparently wasn't on the troopers rotation before this change.

 

What im trying so say is every game messes with there classes some of them more than others than some but happens and we need to learn to go with it so try to keep an open mind.

 

It's blatantly obvious you don't know how to play your class.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Asavar

[Hxxr]

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

What I can take is a nerf if it's justified, what I don't agree with is why we have to read this?

How does an almost 1/5th nerf to the ability that makes up for the largest part of our overall damage not result in reduced dps? Buffing a 15 second cooldown ability to compensate?

 

If you want to make Mercs more fun and less spammy reduce the Tracer Lock stacking to 3 stacks and Rail Shot and HSM cooldowns to 9 Seconds.

Would also give us more mobility, make it less spammy and set us back on par with Marauders.

[DarthVindictus]

I swear 50% of the people that are complaining about this subject just bug the hell out of me ...Yes im bugged that Bioware somewhat nerfed the amount of crit dps Gav round can do that part is true. But in retrospect Bioware made its cool down a lot faster so you can spam it even more and get the stacks up faster. Before 1.2 was my biggest pet peeve. Now we can super spam it faster then more to demo round full auto and so forth which apparently wasn't on the troopers rotation before this change.

 

What im trying so say is every game messes with there classes some of them more than others than some but happens and we need to learn to go with it so try to keep an open mind.

 

Let me explain..

 

1. Grav round HAS no cooldown

2. The 1.2 changes basically made it so that by default it has a longer casting time and lower ammo cost than it did previously, and speccing into the talent that used to reduce its ammo cost now decreases its cast time instead. The overall effect: 0 change. It's exactly the same as it was before for casting time, "cooldown" and ammo cost.

3. What HAS changed is that the power barrier only increases mitigation by a maximum of 5%, where it did 10% prior, so we take 5% more damage incoming. Also, they reduced the amount of damage this spammable skill could do by 10%. To compensate, they increased the damage of demo round by 10%. This is not equal because demo round has a 15s cooldown, grav round has no cooldown. They additionally raised the chance for curtain of fire to proc from 30% to 45%. However it is still bottlenecked by a once per 6s limit, not to mention the fact that full auto is white damage (can be deflected/dodged or blocked by cover whereas yellow damage (grav round and demo round) cannot), and is channeled.

 

What Bioware was claiming to attempt to do, is encourage BAD commando players, who spammed nothing but grav round, into using full auto, demo round, and hi impact bolt, as prior to this, bad commandos could do 85% of the damage of players who already used those skills in rotation. The problem is.. even with using those skills, they're all on 15s cooldowns, with other skills having higher cooldowns, or not being cost effective enough to be used in rotation, or are situational (like mortar volley, or sticky grenade, or plasma grenade), therefore gravround is still a heavily used skill.

 

For those of us who already used all the viable skills for a rotation.. our damage just goes down, there is no other way to look at it.

[Kushtaka]

But since last nights patch Demo Round damage is down, so where's the justification? Oh that's right, the geniuses at Bioware want us to use the plethora of other skills at our disposal since were using Demo Round so much, every 15 seconds we spam the hell out of it.

[SgtRock]

For clarity, the purpose of the change was to address the issue that Grav Round, on its own, was responsible for too much of your overall DPS. In other words, using totally made up numbers, if all you did was mindlessly spam Grav Round, you could still achieve something like 85% (again, totally made up) of your total damage dealing potential.

 

Not only was it bad, it wasn't fun (for the target or the caster). When things are bad, not fun, and yet they're still effective, they become high profile candidates for tweaking.

 

What we did was lower Grav Round's damage and increase Demo Round's damage. I don't know what the net result is off the top of my head, but we feel it's much, much closer to a "rebalance" than an outright "nerf."

 

And in case you're worried, if it turns out to be more of a nerf than a rebalance (which we don't want to be the case), then we'll fix it. But even then that'll probably be in ways that don't directly affect the damage dealt by Grav Round.

 

I'm not sure what's more infuriating here, the poorly planned and executed nerfS, or defending them based on what the developers "feel"?! This is a game about numbers. Hard and fast mathematics is what makes this thing run - I could care less what the developers "feel" about it.

 

IF it turns out? IF? Are you kidding me? Let's look at the facts:

 

- Healing was reduced.

- Concussion Charge had it's cooldown increased (net effect) for those that had it talented.

- Critical chances were reduced.

- Grav round damage was reduced.

- Grav round armor debuff was reduced.

- Synergy between 2 or more Commandos using Grav Round was REMOVED.

- Expertise was buffed (net effect).

- Average time to kill was reduced (net effect of Expertise buff).

 

These changes, all taken together comprise an exponential reduction in PvP utility for Commandos, not a linear one. That, FYI is a NERF, not a rebalance and the fact that this requires explanation to a professional team of developers should be embarrasing.

 

I used to be a serious threat in PvP, now you've put me in a position where I am more of a LIABILITY to my team. Our DPS is inferior, our healing is (even more) inferior (than it used to be) and our utility has been reduced to rediculous proportions. IF? IF?! Are any of you even PLAYING this game? You certainly can't be playing Commando.

Edited April 21, 2012 by SgtRock

[Lexb]

The overall impression/feeling i have is simple.

 

I choose the wrong class in the wrong (low pop) server in the wrong game.

 

Edit:

Just came back after another ruined pvp match. 5 kills, 75k damage and 1 medal.

 

But i will think in a positive way... Or try to use reverse psychology.

 

But i'm so happy, 2 wzs played till now, first one i got 8 kills!!!!! That isn't awesome??? 8 kills. Now i`m starting to understand the concept of being a commando. At this speed i can have maybe, i said maybe, 10 kills in a wz next year. That will be sooooooo coooool!!!!

 

I'm so loving my lack of dps, and the imps killing me fast was a so much improvement to bring more fun and balance to pvp. I`m amazed how devs made pvp an unforgettable experience after last patch. I'm so glad to spend my free time here while paying for their hard work. I can't even imagine why ppl have reasons to unsub... The only things that come to my mind are devs working hard, day and night thinking about all the ppl enjoying their hard work.

 

Every time i'm in a wz there's a lot of fun when ppl stuns or kills me in one zillion ways, and i can't do nothing while my hp bar drops to zero in 5 seconds!!! Great fun!!!! And there's all that time spent hunting datacroms, pvp comms, armor and items just to see they won't matter LOL, great joke, i loved it!!!

 

And it's so nice to pay and contribute to others have a good time. TY Bioware so much. Off course i will keep working to pay the game and using all my free time here to enjoy all the fun the game brings to me.

 

Forgot to mention the buggy sound and the game freezing during pvp!! But who needs a mmo with sound working? And why bother with the game keep freezing after last patch? I will be dead anyway when the game comes back. And to end with a special touch, the game is now crashing 3 to 6 times per day, an amazing improvement since last patch, because before 1.2 my game had 1 or 2 crashes per week at max.

 

(This is surely the type of post you guys like to read right?)

Edited April 21, 2012 by Lexb

[Hxxr]

The damage nerf was closer to 50% then 10% fyi. Nothing was "re-balanced" to make up for that loss.

 

It was closer to exactly 19%. Huge and not compensated in any way. HSM/Demo need a serious cut in cooldown to get us back on our feet.

It gives us all we need, mobily, burst, higher sustained damage and really is a simple fix.

[Akomo]

I think people misunderstand who this change was for. People who post here understand the class and know how Grav Round is our bread and butter. Our rotation won't change, we will still weave in a lot of grav rounds with all the othe abilities. The change is there to punish people who ONLY SPAM grav Round and nothing else.

 

Yep and thats what its intended purpose is.I weave grav round into all my abilities including grenades.I do have to manage my ammo meter closely in PvP and PvE when i use grens though.More so after 1.2.Its not necessary to spam it since youll go through your ammo quickly if you do.

 

Adapt and survive.

 

Dont and unsub.

 

P.S. kinda ironic since i specced to gunnery about 3 months before 1.2 and im sticking with it.

[Akomo]

The overall impression/feeling i have is simple.

 

I choose the wrong class in the wrong (low pop) server in the wrong game.

 

Edit:

Just came back after another ruined pvp match. 5 kills, 75k damage and 1 medal.

 

But i will think in a positive way... Or try to use reverse psychology.

 

But i'm so happy, 2 wzs played till now, first one i got 8 kills!!!!! That isn't awesome??? 8 kills. Now i`m starting to understand the concept of being a commando. At this speed i can have maybe, i said maybe, 10 kills in a wz next year. That will be sooooooo coooool!!!!

 

I'm so loving my lack of dps, and the imps killing me fast was a so much improvement to bring more fun and balance to pvp. I`m amazed how devs made pvp an unforgettable experience after last patch. I'm so glad to spend my free time here while paying for their hard work. I can't even imagine why ppl have reasons to unsub... The only things that come to my mind are devs working hard, day and night thinking about all the ppl enjoying their hard work.

 

Every time i'm in a wz there's a lot of fun when ppl stuns or kills me in one zillion ways, and i can't do nothing while my hp bar drops to zero in 5 seconds!!! Great fun!!!! And there's all that time spent hunting datacroms, pvp comms, armor and items just to see they won't matter LOL, great joke, i loved it!!!

 

And it's so nice to pay and contribute to others have a good time. TY Bioware so much. Off course i will keep working to pay the game and using all my free time here to enjoy all the fun the game brings to me.

 

Forgot to mention the buggy sound and the game freezing during pvp!! But who needs a mmo with sound working? And why bother with the game keep freezing after last patch? I will be dead anyway when the game comes back. And to end with a special touch, the game is now crashing 3 to 6 times per day, an amazing improvement since last patch, because before 1.2 my game had 1 or 2 crashes per week at max.

 

(This is surely the type of post you guys like to read right?)

 

Sorry but one medal? I get a minimum of 3 medals per round and thats losing the match.In winning matches im averaging 6 to 14 medals and 80-220k damage.Your not shooting enough.If i do less than 80k it means IM not shooting enough.(usually defending a point or area).

 

As far as game crashes go, well cant help you there.Thats more than likely your end.Since launch dec 20,2011 ive crashed a total of 5 times ,all related to a driver updates.

 

Still 1.2 is not perfect nor am i claiming it is.I wont bother with listing bugs here since its off topic.

[Lexb]

Sorry but one medal? I get a minimum of 3 medals per round and thats losing the match.In winning matches im averaging 6 to 14 medals and 80-220k damage.Your not shooting enough.If i do less than 80k it means IM not shooting enough.(usually defending a point or area).

 

As far as game crashes go, well cant help you there.That´´s more than likely your end.Since launch dec 20,2011 ive crashed a total of 5 times ,all related to a driver updates.

 

Still 1.2 is not perfect nor am i claiming it is.I wont bother with listing bugs here since its off topic.

 

I´m the only commando using war hero armor in my server (i think the only one with the full BM gear also) and im 30k valor to have "Conqueror" tittle.

 

I used to kill ppl not only with guns.. I used to toss 3 or 4 off the bridge and platforms in VS. kill ppl in acid/fire in a very good amount of times in the same match, even after the WZ end match window.

 

So i´m pretty marked, when ppl see me, i usually have 3 or 4 on me. Before patch i had enough dps or heals to kill or keep some at distance. Now i´m only an easy target to be killed as soon i´m in sight. I don´t blame them, i surely did , do and probably will do the same, kill the easy one, the fastest one to be killed. Since commandos, ty to BW again, have no survivability. If any DPS class target you you are dead. Funny is, being a dps commando means not a certain kill. BW should call us "those who can kill with luck" now. I bet some of them are complaining for not releasing the ranked WZs since i bet they not play commandos. And i assure that not a single commando will have a smallest chance to stay near a real dps when ranked WZs are released if BW not fix our class.

 

About the crashes, sound bugs and game freezes.

 

Its very simple. No crashes, no sound bugs, no game freezes before 1.2. Plain and simple enough. It was implicit in last post.

 

By the way, i have a HP workstation that probably cost the price of 5 or 6 pcs rigged for gaming. Incredible to have a computer rigged to make movies like Avatar and its not working with this not properly tested patch.

 

So you can see how devs were rigorous testing 1.2.

 

Pls don´t get me wrong and i´m not and will not criticize you

 

But every time someone comes saying about "you guys need to learn your role... bla bla bla" sounds like an indocrinated fan boy teenager anxious for any opportunity to brag about himself, to show how he is "goooood", or with hopes that BW will make a note about his name to give him some cookies later or maybe pet his head, or whatever lol.

 

The same way, when someone complain about software bugs, every time comes someone saying "your computer is the problem... bla bla bla" not the software made for those called almighty Devs. It is much pretension, and dumb, to write when someone has problems with the computer and we have not, come to say that can only be the fault of that user's computer and not the software.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Lexb