Redcorn Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Never been hybrid spec'd and I see full gunny and medics being the hardest hit. If BW wanted to nerf the hybrid specs they sorely missed their mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amali Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 I'd like to echo the comments of those that are still leveling or playing solo as a commando. Unless I've missed some key change, my health drops so fast I can barely play. It's not the DPS issue as much as it a survivability issue. I'm not interested in using a medpac on every fight soloing. And I'm not interested in grouping for all my solo quests. I'm currently level 45 and that may be my final level on this character. Overall, it's not fun to repeatedly die on what I could kill previously while questing. I really hope that BW is looking at all aspects of the game (solo play as well as groups/pvp), not just the emphasis on a "more fun rotation." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erei Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 I think many commando gunny players have failed to see the enormity of the problem. You see they did nothing to remove the 'spam of grav round'. You still need to do it because all procs depend on it, and cool downs of other abilities leave nothing but grav available. But we can use our explosive round.....commandos need to conserve ammo to maintain constant DPS and not end up with nothing to shoot......explosive round goes through ammo quickly. If explosive round got a boost but the gunny grav round got nerfed, doesn't that really mean you should play any variant of a trooper other than a gunny? As I see it they just made vanguard dps that much stronger...which they were prior to 1.2 Exactly my though. Spaming is no fun. But the whole tree is about spaming. If BW wants us to have a skill rotation, plz revamp the tree and the unused skills. Sticky grenade ? BS Explosive round ? Joke since I'm lvl 10 Charged bolt ? The same skill than grav round, without all the feats from gunnery tree Pulse cannon ? Not so bad for aoe, but cost a lot of ammos Plasma grenade ? I like it, but 4ammos is too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laraan Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 He guys gunnery is even better then assault tree after 1.2 Incendiary Round 18s dot in PVP with faster Time to Kill - nobody needs a low dmg long time dot in 5 sec. figths Charge Bolt -10% dmg 2 sec cast (sure we have no way to get the casttime down like in gunnery tree) and btw where the hell is the +10% dmg abilitie for this tree? And funniest thing is, we have to spam this for the proc of HIB. So most pic this tree, 'cause good dmg and mobility, but after 1.2 is low dmg and low mobility. Please could someone answer here why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexb Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Nerfs for...more fun? Yeah, for more fun of the others... All commandos could unite and make a NGO called "We pay to help other have more fun", and the 1st public act can be something like "Siths need to feel more OP, pay SWTOR and be a dummy opponent to help them". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImariKurumi Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Bioware just keeping it relevant to the Star Wars Lore. Troopers were always cannon fodder, Lightsabers are the protaganists. Its unreasonable to give us Troopers the limelight. We're just supporting casts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexb Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Lets follow the lore. How about starting with the same amount of troopers as Anakin had when he wiped out the Jedis? Lets say to each commando in a field, a buff to summon an entire company of them, i think it will be the same proportion to keep the lore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macabakur Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) That is correct. However, I'll repeat, the reduction in Grav Round damage was made to address how much damage Grav Round contributes to your total rotation - not to address how many times you press the Grav Round button. Players have run off with the idea that we're trying to eliminate Grav Round spamming, which is not the case. My goal has been to eliminate how effective Grav Round spamming is if it's all you do. An effective Gunnery rotation still utilizes Grav Round as both a "build up" ability and a "resource dump" ability. That hasn't changed, nor was it my goal to change that. What has changed is that competitive DPS now comes from utilizing all of your key rotational abilities instead of leaning so very heavily on just Grav Round. I hope that's more clear now. but what about us pre 40 commando's, did you guys even factor us in? i'm 38 now, so i almost have demo round, and i'm hoping that improves the numbers i'm seeing. I took a break from pvp from 33 till tonight. It was pre 1.2 when i was 33 and man, it was so fun. The skills I had were cool, they did neat stuff and they did really great damage, i'd use grav round 3-4 times, then the follow up to grav round the hard shot thing, can't think of the name, then maybe full auto and some normal shots and sometimes throw in a grenade, or cryo or knockback or what have you. When I was 33 i was averaging per warzone 170 k damage, in the 3 warzones i did tonight i never got over 80 k. that's a humongous drop in damage, and the classes i could kill before, marauder, well.. anyone. I got beaten 1 v 1 by everyone. i think i killed one sorcerer. but man, what a huge change this is for pre demolition round commando's.. did you guys think of this? Edited April 16, 2012 by Macabakur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pupett Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Guys please get it, BW does not want to reduce the time we use Grav Rounds their intention was to reduce the overall distribution to the total dmg done. That’s okay for me so far, but they have to buff the other abilities further e.g. full auto +20-25% more dmg to offset the reduction in Grav Rounds. Main Problem for me is the survivability. Currently if you meet a melee who is not afk you are dead. Please improve our survivability to an extend that we have an fair chance to survive. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zayse Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Guys please get it, BW does not want to reduce the time we use Grav Rounds their intention was to reduce the overall distribution to the total dmg done. That’s okay for me so far, but they have to buff the other abilities further e.g. full auto +20-25% more dmg to offset the reduction in Grav Rounds. Main Problem for me is the survivability. Currently if you meet a melee who is not afk you are dead. Please improve our survivability to an extend that we have an fair chance to survive. Thanks Pretty much this. If you continue to say that the damage reduction was to reduce the use of grav round, THEN YOU DIDN'T READ GZ'S POST. The Devs just want you to work for your dps like the rest of us by redistributing your damage across other skills. Your dps shouldn't suffer if you throw other skills in in addition to your normal grav round spam. Every other class has many many cooldowns to manage, why should you be allowed to faceroll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amantheil Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I think people misunderstand who this change was for. People who post here understand the class and know how Grav Round is our bread and butter. Our rotation won't change, we will still weave in a lot of grav rounds with all the othe abilities. The change is there to punish people who ONLY SPAM grav Round and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schwiz Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 From the patch notes, "Grav Round has been rebalanced in order to encourage more active gameplay rotations." So they nerfed commandos to make them have a rotation that's more fun? I've seen this kind of logic since EQ. I guess game developers will never learn. Was there some outcry from the commando community to change their rotation? The funny thing is it didn't change the rotation at all, you still do 3 grav round, demo round, 2 more grav round and then high impact bolt. Throw hail of bolts whenever it procs. Rotation is exactly the same except it does less damage now. Failed nerf is fail. I stick with assault it does higher damage now and it is more fun to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amantheil Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 The funny thing is it didn't change the rotation at all, you still do 3 grav round, demo round, 2 more grav round and then high impact bolt. Throw hail of bolts whenever it procs. Rotation is exactly the same except it does less damage now. Failed nerf is fail. I stick with assault it does higher damage now and it is more fun to play. I do not think the change was intended to change the rotation. It was done to force people to follow the rotation instead of spamming Grav Round and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaoogaa Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I do not think the change was intended to change the rotation. It was done to force people to follow the rotation instead of spamming Grav Round and nothing else. The statement that was made pre-change was something along the lines that they were altering the skill tree to rely less on grav round and make gunnery more dynamic. All they did was nerf sustained DPS and buffed burst damage. There was no more changes that made the play more dynamic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerikFox Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 That is correct. However, I'll repeat, the reduction in Grav Round damage was made to address how much damage Grav Round contributes to your total rotation - not to address how many times you press the Grav Round button. Players have run off with the idea that we're trying to eliminate Grav Round spamming, which is not the case. My goal has been to eliminate how effective Grav Round spamming is if it's all you do. An effective Gunnery rotation still utilizes Grav Round as both a "build up" ability and a "resource dump" ability. That hasn't changed, nor was it my goal to change that. What has changed is that competitive DPS now comes from utilizing all of your key rotational abilities instead of leaning so very heavily on just Grav Round. I hope that's more clear now. This is the main reason I'm no thrilled with commando. It's so.... stiff. Knight/warrior are the best done classes in my opinion - in every way. The focus/rage system is brilliantly executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerikFox Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I think people misunderstand who this change was for. People who post here understand the class and know how Grav Round is our bread and butter. Our rotation won't change, we will still weave in a lot of grav rounds with all the othe abilities. The change is there to punish people who ONLY SPAM grav Round and nothing else. Not to mention the fact that it was way overpowered. I took a lvl 20 commando in a wz and hit for a few thousand per round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amantheil Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) The statement that was made pre-change was something along the lines that they were altering the skill tree to rely less on grav round and make gunnery more dynamic. All they did was nerf sustained DPS and buffed burst damage. There was no more changes that made the play more dynamic. Again, the goal wasn't to make it more dynamic forpeople who kneew what they were doing, used Full Auto when COF procced, used HIB when Chared Barrell hit 5 stacks, used Demo round at 5 stacks, etc. The goal was to make it so you actually had to do all that, and not just spam Grav Round mindlessly. So yes, it is less reliant on hitting Grav Round endlessly, because you actually have to pay attention to when to use Full Auto, HIB, Demo Round. People were getting by without doing that. Funny how people keep quoting (misquoting) his first post, and ignoring the 2nd one. That is correct. However, I'll repeat, the reduction in Grav Round damage was made to address how much damage Grav Round contributes to your total rotation - not to address how many times you press the Grav Round button. Players have run off with the idea that we're trying to eliminate Grav Round spamming, which is not the case. My goal has been to eliminate how effective Grav Round spamming is if it's all you do. An effective Gunnery rotation still utilizes Grav Round as both a "build up" ability and a "resource dump" ability. That hasn't changed, nor was it my goal to change that. What has changed is that competitive DPS now comes from utilizing all of your key rotational abilities instead of leaning so very heavily on just Grav Round. I hope that's more clear now. Edited April 17, 2012 by amantheil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsocool Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) I rolled a commando right after the patch (mostly because I wanted a pink twi'lek trooper. Blew 1.5 mil to unlock it). As a frame of reference I have a 50 Powertech, Marauder, Sage and Shadow. I PVP extensively. I am now 27 on my commando and spamming grav round. I don't have the 31 pt talent yet. I weave in High impact Shot and the 3sec channel. I am still getting top 3 DPS in every WZ, if not top DPS. Playing on my marauder, I am still consistently seeing Commandos and Mercenaries doing very well in overall DPS. (I assume they are decent mirrors of each other) If you are worried about survivability, everyone is feeling the expertise changes. We all die faster. As a matter of fact, on my marauder Cloak of Pain no longer feels like it makes a significant change to my survivability (I still use it nevertheless). I do get my 5sec invulnerability power, but often die seconds after it expires, if my vanish is not up (and often die right after vanish expires 4 seconds later even if it is) On my trooper, if I get huttball, I laugh in the face of marauders. Phooey to the marauder buffs, having two knockbacks compensates for a lot. I'm not feeling weak in the least. If you tell me grav round used to hit for 10% more damage (11%, if it was a 10% reduction from the original) I can tell you I'm not even caring. For those of you complaining about the reduced radius of Mortar Volley, after playing a balance Shadow and a annihilation Marauder, I am telling you I am using it happily. Pfft to your whining. Don't even compare Lightning storm/Forcequake. There is a reason people hardly ever use it at battlemaster WZs. I channel Mortar Volley in Voidstar and still get multiple kills. I can feel the difference in radius compared to my Powertech's pre-nerf DFA, but calling it a single target power is largely overreacting. I intend my trooper as my new main now that I'm moving back to republic side. I'm having tons of fun and enjoying it, nerf or no. Am looking forward to my 31 point talent, if you are telling me it was buffed. Maybe things are different at 50. Pre-1.2, commandos would persistently do better than my marauder in DPS, especially in voidstar. I'm quite well aware a marauder's single target DPS is the best in PVP. I'm also aware that they get relatively less hits in because they are pure melee with no snare/root immunity and few decent closing powers. I am also aware that the Commando had and still has the best AoE capability in the game, so voidstar is not necessarily a good comparison. I am still telling you I am not feeling one whit of sorry for you. Edited April 17, 2012 by notsocool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sensiblepoast Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Maybe things are different at 50. You should have started with that and saved me a lot of reading. Or that silliness about commando having the best aoe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arzoo Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I hate anecdotal evidence about topping dps in a wz, ESPECIALLY at sub-50. I took my level 10 TROOPER (not vanguard/commando) into a wz and topped dps for the entire wz (both sides). People are idiots, and anyone competent can top a wz regardless of class/gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coraine Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Just a tip for commandos/mercs who are struggling with the new changes... Try this out ... Priority order of moves: 1. Full auto on curtain of fire proc 2. Demo round on 5 stacks of gravity vortex 3. High impact bolt at 5 stacks 4. Grav round in between Basically, the old rotation, except using full auto whenever it comes up... if your numbers are going anything like mine, you should be getting a lot of full autos in compared to pre 1.2 and in my opinion it has increased my overall damage output. I have found myself doing more damage in 1.2 thanks to the more frequent full autos and the massive demo round crits. Not sure what everyone else is getting upset about, maybe you guys are the ones who just spammed grav round extensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badmagic Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 qq, nerfs were needed to bring the class in line. Sorry you can spam one ability over and over and over and over. Now you have to l2p. GG well done devs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahrounmoon Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 This thread is making my brain hurt. People either don't have a firm enough grasp on how rotations and priority systems work or they're too blinded by their own outrage to see it. Or perhaps just trolling. It's been known to happen. Let me explain it. Rotations are made up of abilities used on cooldown, procs, and filler. Procs are usually supposed to be the highest priority, then the cooldowns, then the filler. That's why it's called filler, it fills in the gaps between the higher damage abilities. If the filler does too much damage then the cooldowns and procs can be ignored. That was the case with grav round. Damage, in theory, has been shifted to demo round to compensate for the loss of damage on grav round. The sum total, if you use all parts of the equation, should be the same. If it's not, they will put the damage back into the other abilities, the cooldowns and procs. Now, simultaneously, I believe there was a bug regarding the debuffs from grav round and how they interact with demo round. If I understand that issue correctly, it could make it appear as though demo round was not adequately compensated because it was inflating the damage from demo round under specific circumstances. That's fixing a bug that was never intended and that part is not something you should be looking to be compensated for. Anyway, I came here looking for info for my mid level commando I dusted off last night. You guys have a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLapp Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Has anyone done the math to determine if HIB is better used @ 5 stacks, or better used whenever available? I always though casting it more often would be better since while waiting to get to 5 stacks, you have to use hammer shot more often to maintain ammo...so throughout a boss fight you are probably going to get an extra 2-3 uses of HIB. I figured that would probably outweigh the extra 1-2 stacks of charged barrel you would get by waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyotecalls Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) Just because you lowered the damage doesn't change our rotation in the slightest, it just nerfed our overall DPS which did NOT need to happen. As someone who was constantly being ripped apart in PVP by Grav round, I'm pretty sure it needed to happen. Your win button is no more, stop QQing and learn to adapt. Inquisitors lost the use of our highest DPS spec and got hosed on healing. You got one spell reduced, count yourself lucky... You couldn't even force speed away from a trooper before they cut you down with grav round. Now at least there -is- a fight. But if you miss it so much level a warrior/jedi they are just as bad as troopers ever where. I played my level 28 in PVP just for fun while waiting for one of my guildies I was leveling with and holy crap, I ripped people up. Edited April 17, 2012 by Coyotecalls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts