Harsisus Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I definitely agree that pug environments are not the best place to test content. But in a game like SWTOR, there are a lot of pugs who get affected by these changes, so balance really matters for them. Also, there really isn't an established venue for "high level" PvP without ranked gameplay. We really are stuck with pug testing, sadly. This. Until we have ranked warzones (which will give players a basis for forming high level pre-mades that aren't just with familiars), we can't do much else than PuG testing. Once the ranked system comes in I'm sure it'll be different, and the PuGs will be told to shove off and the focus shifted to the co-ordinated players, but as it is now I'm sure most people go into warzones with just themselves or 1 other person at most (from what I've seen myself, anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatAuc Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 I'm Conqueror level and found the patch to be better overall than I thought. Virtually all of my guild agrees...some major overreactions in this thread. One thing you have to realize is that some people didn't change out their mods pre-patch and don't have the new expertise. Right now, it's hard to judge things because there is a greater potential gear discrepancy than before. People are also learning new talent setups, figuring out how to adjust to the nerfs and/or tinkering with their UI. I would wait til things settle down and everyone has more experience with the changes and getting their gear right. I have noticed some fast killings by certain classes that probably need adjusting, but nothing warranting the ridiculous crying on this thread. I am somewhat surprised that the dps operatives/scoundrels nerf was not a big deal at all from playing against some today. They still hurt really bad and are very potent. In any case, you can't make any conclusions after only a few hours of anecdotal testing. People doing so at this stage have zero credibility and sense of reasonableness. Overall, I give BW a grade A for the patch..it was less than 8 hours down time and noticed no major bugs or glitches like I had grown to expect the first day from WoW. You do have a point that SOME people have half the expertise they should. But no, unlike you might think, I, for one, am not QQ'ing about dying too fast, I am saying that I kill **** too fast. It's not fair that I jump on someone (that I know is equally geared as I am) and kill him without him being able to do ANYTHING about it. God forbid you are currently attacking someone else, you just got backstabbed to die in 2 seconds. As you seem, you are most likely running with your guild and plundering through pugs and enjoying it. But that gets very old very fast. If you actually like that type of gameplay, it does seem like most do not. And just to return the favor, "In any case, you can't make any conclusions after only a few hours of anecdotal testing. People doing so at this stage have zero credibility and sense of reasonableness.". You have no more credibility than the rest of us, so why did you bother posting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Scattered_ Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I definitely agree that pug environments are not the best place to test content. But in a game like SWTOR, there are a lot of pugs who get affected by these changes, so balance really matters for them. Also, there really isn't an established venue for "high level" PvP without ranked gameplay. We really are stuck with pug testing, sadly. When it comes to killing healers high level balance and pug balance are mutually exclusive. Either average/below-average players can blow up healers or they can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinediks Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 It's not worth healing a warzone if I can barely keep myself alive against one BM geared opponent. Damage is insane. What the hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruuprect Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 A pug environment is not a good model for assessing healer balance, we are talking about teams where half the dps don't know what they are doing, severely reducing incoming damage and therefore the pressure on the healers. On the rare occasions where I have been matched against a full team of competent players the damage shot up, making it extremely stressful trying to keep people alive. Your right about using pugs to guage balance. The problem is without the ability to 8 man queue all WZ's are pugs essentially, therefore it is the only information that can be used in an effort to balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terinn Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 My faction on my server is not the higher of the two. I loved pvp b4 the patch even without the rep side being favoured or having the gear the imps had we found ways to win. I have no reason right now to do wz if I am not going to get any rewards for doing them. I understand there should be less if you lose, but to receive nothing is stupid. I think they turned the damage up to 11 and need to dial it down a bit. But until changes are made it will be hard to win a wz and I wonder what the point of it would be. I dont mind losing and it will happen, but it should be fun even when you lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordris Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Possibly the worst thread in Frogdog history. Really, really full of fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akabeth Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) Well, I was wondering why everyone and myself seemed to be dying at a faster rate than usual... and I also managed to top the largest single hit I've ever seen from one of my characters by a good margin overnight. I had to log back in game to check and I never realized Bioware tweaked expertise gains (i.e. damage boost). It's okay though, I could never make sense of this game from a PvP standpoint ever since beta. Edited April 12, 2012 by Akabeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sowwy Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) PvP community in a PvE game. Your first and last mistake. pvp gear progression, pvp talents, pvp consumables, pvp currency, pvp warzones, pvp vanity items, and a pvp planet all at release. Where is this strictly pve game you speak of? Edited April 12, 2012 by Sowwy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktkenshinx Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 When it comes to killing healers high level balance and pug balance are mutually exclusive. Either average/below-average players can blow up healers or they can't. The problem is that the game doesn't support "high level balance". It's all a bunch of tangential observations from random pug games across all the servers. The lack of evidence is hilarious on both sides, and the vast majority of players that I read on this server lack for any supporting numbers. Heck, both of us did this earlier in the thread. I cited some personal experience, you cited some personal experience. Everyone else does the same. Games like SC2 and LoL have extensive tournament scenes to showcase high level balance. SWTOR does not. That leaves us to either use pugs for balance, use forums for balance (terrible idea), or just use guesswork for balance. Yes, BW should get ranked going so we can get some REAL high level testing. And they should revise their PTS protocol. But for now, it really is pugs or nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triangulate Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Alot of people are putting this down to an expertise thing, but it isn't. Go play in the 10- 49 bracket and healers die in 3 globals. My shield Tech Vanguard was killed in 4 globals by a marauder. People are just melting in every WZ. It aint any fun at all.... Where are the tactics when the guy you are trying to heal gets killed before your finger leaves the hotkey. The ball carrier gets killed in 2-4 globals even with guard on him lol. Tbh i would favor my chances more in a fight with a firepit in hutball than vs a Marauder right now.... Marauders hit harder than firpits, and snipers hit harder than firepits + marauders + acid pools combined. How the hell can a 100% tank specced player get killed in 4 globals by a single player? Are Bioware *********** crazy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Scattered_ Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Your right about using pugs to guage balance. The problem is without the ability to 8 man queue all WZ's are pugs essentially, therefore it is the only information that can be used in an effort to balance. I have plenty of experience (Warlord) against double premades or 8 good players by chance, the damage seemed out of control then, guarded healer was no longer all powerful. This patch is about giving every player regardless of ability the chance to get a kill, much like how CoD works. If I wanted to play mindless dps zerg pvp I would roll an alt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actualism Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 It's borked, I've been fairly patient with BW thinking that they will get it right or at least close to right. They went backwards with this update as far as pvp goes. ^This. I almost feel a bit reassured here. As a Sage healer, going into Warzones today was a nightmarish experience (yes, I agree we needed a nerf, but this felt more like complete destruction of not only the class, but how viable it is rolling a healer for PvP). Being critted by 7k in Battlemaster gear and having heals that only crit for max 4k (if I'm lucky enough to get a Deliverance off when someone interrupted Benevolence and Healing Trance) makes BioWare's precious balance even further off target. At least now I know it's not just me who simply can't cope with the changes made to my class, and only feeling like I suck enough to be killed in a matter of seconds regardless of what I do. Now, if you'll excuse me, I will return to my Voodoo shrine and try to influence BioWare to flay their PvP developers and hire someone who has an inkling of what to do and how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanzBlix Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Is it wrong to quote Spaceballs on these forums? "She's gone from suck to blow sir" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brool Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 EPIC Failure. They too all the rewards out of playing PvP for the Republic. I have 4 Imps and we do great on my server (although I can't get a game to pop to save my life this afternoon, word must be out). I have a republic toon that starts most matches with at least 2 people down. Before there was an incentive to try and win and play anyway. Now, just quit and go back to whatever... because if you lose you get NOTHING! Way to fail hard. This is false. You do get rewards even if you lose, you might of experianced a bug in the system, but I've not experienced it. Ive been in close loses and not so close loses and still received valor/coms/creds in EVERY match played. I've had friends lose 100-0 in the new warzone and still receive coms/creds/valor as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourne Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 From a PvE aspect, I guess one would be thrilled...but for my choice of gameplay (PvP) this patch is horrid. I get one daily, my current equipment totally yanked about, I am stuck with accuracy mods/enhance until War Hero unless I want to drop a huge chunk of expertise...and the WZ's comms have been plundered to ridiculous levels. Most of my WZ's today have been 5-6 against 8, then even more dropping starts...with good reason. There is no point to play a match if it isn't won. I pretty much logged on daily because I liked the PvP...win or lose- I had fun. Now, the fun is completely gone for Pugs which lack the appropriate AC's, numbers, gear or participating players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaycu Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Most expensive game ever made? I just don't see it. The end game content is horrible, Ilum died and they can't fix it, same 4 war zones over and over...??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pxlhunter Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I agree - this is absolutely no fun. I also played several matches - lost but got medals - and received absolutely zero (no valor, credits, comms, etc) - NONE. crap PVP now - thanks BW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KindarMosfet Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Most expensive game ever made? I just don't see it. The end game content is horrible, Ilum died and they can't fix it, same 4 war zones over and over...??? I'm not going to sit here , and say developing a game is easy, or I could have done it better.. it's just sad to see after all these years of waiting, and seeing all the happy videos about this system, and the 4th pillar, and blaa blaa blaa. They are falling short... hopefully they can recover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djalexa Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Do you actually believe this **** with the most expensive game ever made they serve us? LOL get your head out of your *** please! 300 million dollars for this piece of junk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triangulate Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) Most expensive game ever made? I just don't see it. The end game content is horrible, Ilum died and they can't fix it, same 4 war zones over and over...??? Im with you there. I expected so much, what i got was an ill thought out game... little to no endgame or PvP. And to top it all off there is ZERO sense of MMO community in the game. Nobody logs on to hang out because there is NOTHING to do! Edited April 12, 2012 by triangulate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigSalad Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Possibly the worst thread in Frogdog history. Really, really full of fail. This made me laugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dacer Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Glad to seee other ppl notice the Crazy change that was PvP last night and PvP today. Buffing expertise the way they did what a terrilbe terrible call. The backsteped reverted on the needed change to BM itemaiztion. Now I, has a valor 67 who got totally ***** with RNG bag still only have 4 pieces of BM gear compared to my valor 63 guildmate that is full BM Anyway. there is a HUGE different from beteew us now. Something like an effective 15% more damage than what have now ( being that he takes less damage and does more ) In a couple weeks this will fix itself i suppose are more ppl get Full BM with out the RNG Bags but as of right now... Solo queing Warzones without having full BM is horrid PLUS the healing bonus from experise is just a few % from being 1/2 of what it was pre-patch.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruuprect Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Is it wrong to quote Spaceballs on these forums? "She's gone from suck to blow sir" Not sure but we had to change our guild name that referenced Space Balls a while back. How stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sensiblepoast Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Im just tired of War zones. They are the same ones over and over again and that is the best PvP TOR has to offer. I need variety that includes LARGE scale combat. It doesn't look like bio-ware has anything in the near future for that. Large guilds are condensed to 4 to 8 man groups while the rest have to play with pugs. the name "Star Wars" is the only thing keeping this together at the moment. I hope bio-ware pulls through! We need an EPIC announcement followed by an EPIC expansion. I said it a couple of weeks ago and 'Ill say it again... decent world pvp will be at least 6 month from now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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