Healers are the TRUE tanks in warzones?

[thunderchikn]

Healers are not overpowered in any way. It's 100% how bad most dps are in this game. A pro healer can fend off 1-2 good dps while giving minimal heals to their team. And they can stay alive through 3-5 bad dps through los, kiting, and cc. Being with dps, tanks, and other heals that peel and cc for you will make a good healer unkillable unless against another group doing the same. Just as it should be.

 

+1 couldnt have said it better myself

[Zhaker]

I dont share your view,

 

Whenever I see a healer surviving a gank it means that DPS:

 

- Is ****.

- Wrong DPS rotation.

- Doesnt know disrupt.

- Dont know what DPS means.

 

 

When all these factors are in, it means that your team is just going to lose, and these people from 10-49 learnt nothing because they didnt get their asses kicked by the 50's in the first place.

 

Which leads to a majority of these people who think they know what to qq about things they STILL do not know about.

 

Everytime I see an awesome DPS take on a healer with guard, I give him a minute to live if nobody rescues him.

 

But these awesome DPS were the ones that did the hard yards. I rarely see fresh 50's learn how to DPS until they get BM gear, and still the majority fail.

[WaywardOne]

<<

Healers are a staple in most RPGs. This is a RPG, not a FPS. It's not Mechwarrior or CoD. It's Dungeons & Dragons in space.

 

It has healers, and those healers want to PvP like everyone else. And you're right, arguing about them doing well won't make them go away.

 

Your last paragraph seems like a step toward homogenization, which is pretty much the exact opposite of the very nature of a RPG. Let's look at that word, shall we? ROLE-playing Game. If we can all heal, then healers don't need that role. If they can dps like us, then we don't need our role. If tanks can heal and dps, they don't need any of us.

>>

 

Healing is not a staple in all RPGs (Champions, V&V, Top Secret, etc.). Healers in D&D (that I played when it was a cool thing for the nerds to do) were NOTHING like they are in Wow and this game. Clerics could CC, wear armor and melee; during combat they did damage. Their heals and cures were great for reducing "downtime", raising dead people and removing things like curses and poisons. They did not cast heal spells mid combat except in rare cases and those heal spells rarely compared to the damage being done.

 

As far as RPG - 'ROLE'-playing, the source of that definition has nothing to do with Tank, Healer or Nuker. It means you're adopting the "role" of a fictional character in a story. In the glory days of D&D, story and character development (not to be confused with gaining levels) were the main focus amongst serious players including the creators of the various games. Throughout gaming history and even today, many games with only one choice of character (nevermind character classes) are still considered role playing games if they focus on character interactions.

 

As far as homogenization... NO - eliminating or reducing healing is NOT removing all possible specialization/activity options for a combat based game. It is NOT killing all team-based synergies. Look at any sport. Look at any team based pc game: they aren't all fps but Warzones and Battlegrounds have more in common with FPS than they do RPGs. Look at real life militaries. Look at the Star Wars movies (not great example because jedi could do everything but some non-jedi were useful and/or dangerous). There are tons of specialization options and activities that require teamwork that do not involve healing which, in its current form, is actually very counter-immersive.

Edited April 5, 2012 by WaywardOne

[Varicite]

<<

Healers are a staple in most RPGs. This is a RPG, not a FPS. It's not Mechwarrior or CoD. It's Dungeons & Dragons in space.

 

It has healers, and those healers want to PvP like everyone else. And you're right, arguing about them doing well won't make them go away.

 

Your last paragraph seems like a step toward homogenization, which is pretty much the exact opposite of the very nature of a RPG. Let's look at that word, shall we? ROLE-playing Game. If we can all heal, then healers don't need that role. If they can dps like us, then we don't need our role. If tanks can heal and dps, they don't need any of us.

>>

 

Healing is not a staple in all RPGs (Champions, V&V, Top Secret, etc.). Healers in D&D (that I played when it was a cool thing for the nerds to do) were NOTHING like they are in Wow and this game. Clerics could CC, wear armor and melee; during combat they did damage. Their heals and cures were great for reducing "downtime", raising dead people and removing things like curses and poisons. They did not cast heal spells mid combat except in rare cases and those heal spells rarely compared to the damage being done.

 

As far as RPG - 'ROLE'-playing, the source of that definition has nothing to do with Tank, Healer or Nuker. It means you're adopting the "role" of a fictional character in a story. In the glory days of D&D, story and character development (not to be confused with gaining levels) were the main focus amongst serious players including the creators of the various games. Throughout gaming history and even today, many games with only one choice of character (nevermind character classes) are still considered role playing games if they focus on character interactions.

 

As far as homogenization... NO - eliminating or reducing healing is NOT removing all possible specialization/activity options for a combat based game. It is NOT killing all team-based synergies. Look at any sport. Look at any team based pc game: they aren't all fps but Warzones and Battlegrounds have more in common with FPS than they do RPGs. Look at real life militaries. Look at the Star Wars movies (not great example because jedi could do everything but some non-jedi were useful and/or dangerous). There are tons of specialization options and activities that require teamwork that do not involve healing which, in its current form, is actually very counter-immersive.

 

I don't recall saying that healing is a staple in ALL RPGs. I said "most". I also said that I didn't think there was a single successful western MMORPG that has used a healer-less model.

 

If you're arguing that Star Wars shouldn't have healers, it's a little late for that now (but it sounds like you obviously realize this, and are just pining for what could have been).

 

I'll concede that RPG technically does mean playing the role of a character in a game, but let's be honest, that definition was tossed by the wayside when literally every single game that you play has you playing the role of a character. That's not what anyone means anymore when they use the term "RPG", because it's assumed that by playing a game at all, you will be undergoing the role of a character.

 

Either way, I don't think that healing needs to be rebalanced based on 1v1 battles, especially since most DPS classes can already kill most healers 1v1, if they know what they are doing.

 

I know that my Pyro PT only has trouble soloing a Commando/Merc healer; any Sorc or Ops healer will die to the PT, given enough time. It's just an inevitability. My class isn't even the best at killing healers. If you were to make them weaker, I don't see how they would be of any real use to their team, unless you were stacking healers.

 

If you do stack healers, you run into the same problem that we currently have in the game. Healers cross-healing eachother is what's too powerful, not single healers.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Varicite

[WaywardOne]

<<

I don't recall saying that healing is a staple in ALL RPGs. I said "most". I also said that I didn't think there was a single successful western MMORPG that has used a healer-less model.

>>

 

I was only talking about healing as it currently exists in MMOs. As far as I know, Wow was the first to blow it up to its current state (as it is in PvP). There is no example of Wow's healing in any pre-MMO RPG that I have played (and I played dozens of pnps and a few text muds). The truly ridiculously extreme bouncing healthbar pvp healing started with Wow (although precursors definitely existed in EQ1). If you ever played D&D's Neverwinter Nights on AOL (one of the first games that could be called an MMO) - people trained as clerics for their utility and their hps, not their heals. Heals were almost never used in fights and definitely not in pvp fights which were all about being a Magic User. Ultima Online, Asheron's Call 1 and City of Villains were all relatively successfull and none had healing like Wow and this game do. CoV didn't offer a healing class at all. But, while I could rattle off more names, there really aren't that many MMOs that can be classified as "successful" lately and almost all of the major ones that I know of (successfull or not, other than Eve) are built on Wow's very limited model.

Edited April 5, 2012 by WaywardOne

[NathanielStarr]

The problem I have with the argument that a DPS has to know what they're doing to kill the healer is that a healer doesn't have to know what they're doing to defend against a dps. That is apparent.

[Varicite]

The problem I have with the argument that a DPS has to know what they're doing to kill the healer is that a healer doesn't have to know what they're doing to defend against a dps. That is apparent.

 

It may seem that way, but you can tell a healer who doesn't know what they're doing pretty easily.

 

They're the ones that die fast to a solo DPS.

 

Healers still need to select the RIGHT heals at the right time (Oh, you thought it was an accident that they kept spamming the little heal until you interrupted, and now suddenly they are healing for huge amounts?), LoS ranged abilities and CC, keep w/in LoS of their teammates to heal them, kite melee as necessary, etc.

 

The grass is always greener.

[Rotuka]

It may seem that way, but you can tell a healer who doesn't know what they're doing pretty easily.

 

They're the ones that die fast to a solo DPS.

 

Healers still need to select the RIGHT heals at the right time (Oh, you thought it was an accident that they kept spamming the little heal until you interrupted, and now suddenly they are healing for huge amounts?), LoS ranged abilities and CC, keep w/in LoS of their teammates to heal them, kite melee as necessary, etc.

 

The grass is always greener.

 

I must be doing it wrong because I have trouble living longer than it takes to run to the fight. I try to throw a couple heals on teammates before I am overwhelmed. The static bubble takes longer to cast than it lasts and I spend most of the fight stunned. Seeing every class has 2 stuns, I spend a lot of time stunned. I'll admit LVL 50 matches are a bit better than the 10 -49 were but still, 4 hits from a Marauder in huttball usually finishes me off. I see 4K, 4K, 3K, 2K in a manner of 5 seconds after stun.

[TipsyDrow]

Let me take a wild guess...you're a healer perhaps?

 

Fine, don't nerf healing...boost dps then.

 

Regardless, IMO there's currently an imbalance between healing capabilities and dps in PvP.

 

Someone has to say it. You're bad. I'm a sage healer. 600 expertise. That's about average. Not the best not the worst. A good mara/pyro/op can take me out pretty fast if I don't have a dedicated tank guarding me and taunting them. Even with a dedicated tank,two good dps can can still focus me down. For you I'm afraid it's a L2P issue. But you should be happy, they nuked healing into the dirt for 1.2. You will be seein less healers in both pve and pvp. Have fun not getting any heals.

[dufox]

lol i skimmed through this but i keep seeing heals and dps.

dps sucks if u cant kill a healer.

healers are over powered. ect ect...

 

there is a third aspect of pvp in swtor and its called a tank

 

i am a guardian, i have several pocket healers i run with through out the day. i have seen every single one of them get smashed into pieces.

BUT if i guard them like i am supposed to against the exact same group we will not die.

 

the dps doesnt have to fail, and the healer doesnt have to be OP... alot of people dont understand the significance of a tank who is actually doing his job (with a healer who is working with him)

 

a "true" tank is the backbone of the team. if the tank can keep the healer alive by guarding/taunting/actually paying attention the the healers health and the people attacking him/ knowing when to cc and slow, the healer can keep the dps alive.

[Mostock]

Normaly i would say wait for 1,2 patch but dont worry you will be bad even with 1,2 healer changes..

 

I asume you are same type person like the 4 reps i met at ilum yesterday (2 marauders 2 troopers) when we fought at middle, me and one operative (another OP class yeah??? /sarcasm off) all of them start with me and all of them use their stun (force choke) as first skill == full resolve in second then ops open at that trooper and get him to half a hp atm every1 runs from me to that operative, i dont even need use my "trinket to break stun", then just use unload, then electric dart (stun) and death from above and one trooper was killed. operative used his "vanish" so every1 just run back towards to me i just heal myself, use knockback and another heal to myself, OP open to oher trooper, so i had a lot of time to pop my shiled and pvp potion heal myself to full hp and throw some heals to op, these two marauders was completle clueless (even with BM swords) didnt use single interupt (hell i dont even use fake casting) at the and of day we killed them all 4 vs 2 three times (thx for daily )

 

I met a lot of ppls at WZ who just have tunel vision and focus on that one with low hp, ignore healers or QQ about healers beeing op then dont realise there are another healer and tank who guard healer so it isnt 2v1 (3v1) but 2v3(3v3) or some other...

ppl just havent map awarness and then going to forums and QQ

 

ps: sorry for grammar english isnt my native language

[Never_Hesitate]

lol i skimmed through this but i keep seeing heals and dps.

dps sucks if u cant kill a healer.

healers are over powered. ect ect...

 

there is a third aspect of pvp in swtor and its called a tank

 

i am a guardian, i have several pocket healers i run with through out the day. i have seen every single one of them get smashed into pieces.

BUT if i guard them like i am supposed to against the exact same group we will not die.

 

the dps doesnt have to fail, and the healer doesnt have to be OP... alot of people dont understand the significance of a tank who is actually doing his job (with a healer who is working with him)

 

a "true" tank is the backbone of the team. if the tank can keep the healer alive by guarding/taunting/actually paying attention the the healers health and the people attacking him/ knowing when to cc and slow, the healer can keep the dps alive.

 

Thats the art of balance.

I feel exactly the same:

I play a sorc heal lvl 50 not yet BM.

I get nuked by a singel mara, but if i have the tank with me it usually takes about 3 dps to kill me.

 

If there are 5 dps's hitting and interruppting my heals, my tank dies because of guard before i'm dead and i can't do anything against it.

[Ahhmyface]

People continually say "you're just not doing it right". "Lots of people shred me". It's just not true. The people that shred you outplay you. A perfectly played healer is 100% unbeatable. If you know the class you're fighting against, and execute perfectly, you WILL win.

 

If I blow an expertise adrenal, a relic, recklessness, overcharge sabre, use my talented interrupt, knockback him to interruptl, stun on his next heal, stun on his next heal, interrupt on his next heal, and somehow the mofo still isn't dead after putting 20k damage into him, I'm done. I have no more abilities to use, no more force to spend. He's an idiot for not ccing me, he's an idiot for not using his bubble, he's an idiot for not snaring me, knocking me back, or slowing me and kiting me, and yet, he still wins.

 

Granted, deception is not the highest of the dps specs, but it's not the damage I'm complaining about. I reactively interrupted him 5 times, played perfectly, and he facerolled his keyboard for a free win against the very class designed to counter him.

 

I'll say it again. Nobody has any problem with healers keeping people up. We have a problem with healers keeping themselves up. If I attack somebody and interrupt him 5 goddamn times, but his buddy heals him, great, it's time to retreat or reevaluate the situation. But it's not ok to catch a healer alone, with no support, and interrupt the crap out of him while he infinitely tanks.

 

1.2 can't come soon enough.

[Varicite]

People continually say "you're just not doing it right". "Lots of people shred me". It's just not true. The people that shred you outplay you. A perfectly played healer is 100% unbeatable. If you know the class you're fighting against, and execute perfectly, you WILL win.

 

If I blow an expertise adrenal, a relic, recklessness, overcharge sabre, use my talented interrupt, knockback him to interruptl, stun on his next heal, stun on his next heal, interrupt on his next heal, and somehow the mofo still isn't dead after putting 20k damage into him, I'm done. I have no more abilities to use, no more force to spend. He's an idiot for not ccing me, he's an idiot for not using his bubble, he's an idiot for not snaring me, knocking me back, or slowing me and kiting me, and yet, he still wins.

 

Granted, deception is not the highest of the dps specs, but it's not the damage I'm complaining about. I reactively interrupted him 5 times, played perfectly, and he facerolled his keyboard for a free win against the very class designed to counter him.

 

I'll say it again. Nobody has any problem with healers keeping people up. We have a problem with healers keeping themselves up. If I attack somebody and interrupt him 5 gosh darn times, but his buddy heals him, great, it's time to retreat or reevaluate the situation. But it's not ok to catch a healer alone, with no support, and interrupt the crap out of him while he infinitely tanks.

 

1.2 can't come soon enough.

 

Depending on the healer, if you're interrupting the crap out of him, and doing everything else correctly, I would have to say you might not be interrupting the correct spells. Barring that, the only other thing I can think of is that maybe they're outgearing you and you just can't outdps the heals you should be able to.

 

Some classes also just might not be able to kill a healer, but most burst dps classes can, and Maras are pretty specialized at the task.

 

My tankasin can't hope to kill a healer, but my Mara and PT will murder them almost every time unless they are just flat-out better than I am, which doesn't happen too often. My PT has some trouble w/ Commando/Merc heals because of their 2 decent heals and awesome 2 min cd, but the other 2 will die given enough time.

 

In a WZ, you don't often have that kinda time, and a smart healer will train you straight back to their team's waiting sabers. That is still getting outplayed, imo, because a healer w/in range of his team isn't something that "should" be tackled alone. I say "should", because unfortunately, you can't avoid doing this a lot of the times when pugging WZs.

 

Also, I would say that Mara/Sents are the class specially designed to kill healers, not Deception Sins. They have a baseline healing debuff, spec'd 6 second interrupt on top of a 12 second interrupt/gap closer, and self-heals. All Deception has is a lot of damage, which a lot of classes also have. Your 10 second interrupt and Low Slash/KBs that give Resolve are not ideal for killing healers at all.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Varicite

[Swidgin]

Depends on how you define a tank. In the PVE context, a tank gets the enemy to attack them, instead of their teammates.

 

I feel this often happens to healers in warzones, as more than one dps often focuses them. By running, ccing, and healing themselves, a good healer can kite these players away from an objective just as a PVE tank would kite a boss.

 

Actual tank classes in warzones are more of debuff classes, and proactive healers in their own way with Guard. But they really don't seem to draw much "aggro." I mean, as a dps, would you go after someone decked in heavy armor, or someone squishy?

The only time I would really classify an actual tank class as a warzone tank by this definition is when I'm healing one, and purposefully keeping him at 30% HP, just so that the enemy dps keeps battering away at him hoping for an easy kill. (Many dps just look for whoever has the lowest hp, regardless of gear or class.)

 

I'm not saying tanks aren't useful in PVP. I love being in a group with a good one, especially when it comes to defending objectives!

I'm just wondering if anyone shares my perspective on this role healers can take in warzones. Also, I heard someone say once that it's "selfish" for healers to be healing themselves all the time in warzones. I say, if they're being focused and taking the enemy's mind off of other players, it's just as useful as healing said players. Heck, when I'm dps, I admit I tend to get tunnel vision trying to take down a healer who just won't die.

 

If anyone here thinks there's something wrong with healers keeping themselves alive (as in, healing themselves as much as or more than the rest of the group due to being focused) please tell me your reasoning.

 

The FAIL is strong with this one ^

[mystbladex]

Healing is way OP, I say this is because I never ever in all my life played a healing class.

 

Rolled my second character, got it to 50 and made it a healer and all I can say is, amazing. On the ramps I watch people take damage and the HP bar goes down little by little and then i spend 2 seconds healing that person to full HP.

 

It is amazing on how easy it is to heal and how powerful it is. I never run out of forcepower/energy - The bubbles I put on people are insanse I can just bubble someone and then heal someone else.

 

I however hate playing a healer because I hate looking at HP bars the entire match.

[namelless]

People continually say "you're just not doing it right". "Lots of people shred me". It's just not true. The people that shred you outplay you. A perfectly played healer is 100% unbeatable. If you know the class you're fighting against, and execute perfectly, you WILL win.

 

1.2 can't come soon enough.

 

You don't think a healer should be able to outheal a sole-dps? Think of it this way, you've taken him out of the match. With you focusing on him, he has no way of keeping anyone else alive. You've already won, as one free-casting healer contributes a lot more to a group situation than one dps.

 

The way i see it.

 

3-1- Healer should drop like a sack of potatoes

2-1 Healer should drop but survive for 15ish seconds

1-1 Healer should be able to outheal dps with relative ease, not with enough ease to keep other people up, but enough to survive.

Edited April 5, 2012 by namelless

[Ahhmyface]

You don't think a healer should be able to outheal a sole-dps? Think of it this way, you've taken him out of the match. With you focusing on him, he has no way of keeping anyone else alive. You've already won, as one free-casting healer contributes a lot more to a group situation than one dps.

 

The way i see it.

 

3-1- Healer should drop like a sack of potatoes

2-1 Healer should drop but survive for 15ish seconds

1-1 Healer should be able to outheal dps with relative ease, not with enough ease to keep other people up, but enough to survive.

 

I think a healer shouldn't be tanking to begin with personally. He should cc me and escape, not stand there and eat my maximum dps. Or have one of his buddies come over and peel me off, or somebody with guard or taunt. Or another healer should heal him.

 

These scenarios of 3v1 and 2-1 don't really make sense in a warzone setting. Say there are 2 teams facing off. 2 healers, 4 dps, 2 tanks. On both teams.

 

If I need to take our 4 dps to kill their 2 healers, that means that our 2 tanks and 2 healers are facing 4 dps and 2 tanks. The 6 of them will drop either healer like a sack of potatoes, even with guard and taunts. Which means, at the end of this 15 seconds, I am looking at 4dps vs 2 tanks and 4 dps, with all healers dead. We lose, and none of the healers are happy. If we replace your team with 4 healers, now I need an entire team of 8 dps and you have 4 ppl around doing whatever they want.

 

Imo, it should work like this

Pure DPS vs healer = Healer dies after about 15 seconds

Pure DPS vs healer + tank = DPS fails

2 Pure DPS vs healer + tank = 1 dps and 1 healer dies after 15 seconds

3 dps vs (healer/tank) + any of the 3= stalemate

 

This schema works by simply maintaining the DPS > Healer, Tank > DPS, Healer > Tank trinity that is so awfully broken in favor of healers in SWTOR.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Tathais]

Healers are the true tanks. But they shouldn't be.

 

It actually does take 3 dps to kill a commando healer with all his CDs up.

It takes 2 for the other 2 healers.

 

By this logic 8 healer teams require 16 man dps teams to defeat, which is precisely why you see healer-heavy teams dominating warzones. It's not that healing is overpowered, it's the ability of the healer to tank. Nobody is going to complain that 2 dps can't take down a target while his buddy is spam healing him. Not once have I heard a complaint about a 3rd party healer healing too much.

 

<snip>

 

I feel like you're missing something here, and it's very important. There is a definitive falloff for healer effectiveness. This falloff is human reaction time. A healer heavy team is, plain and simple, going to be putting out significantly less damage than the other team. The point here is that they're not going to be killing people. If you leave it right there the whole game boils down to luck as neither side will be able to capture a point since neither side can kill anybody on the other. So whoever captures points first wins.

 

Now, take into consideration the human reaction time component. DPS scales infinitely while healing is limited by the maximum health pool a player can have. All DPS has to do is drop that bar to zero and it's over. All it takes is a large enough spike of damage and there's nothing any one healer, or eight, can do about it. Since we're obviously talking premades here (pretty hard to get an 8 healer team otherwise), a great counter would be 6 DPS and two healers. Those 6 DPS focusing on a single target are absolutely going to explode that target before any of those 8 healers can react.

 

It's exactly this reason why you won't see eight healer teams... but you might see 4 healer teams, where teams are hoping to trade survivability for raw damage output. These teams are effective, but require that they don't make mistakes. It's a balancing act, and that's what makes the game interesting.

 

We saw the same trend in WoW for years with arenas, and again in rated battlegrounds. Some teams opted to stack more healers and it became effective for them. Others opted to have less healers and that was effective for them.

[dufox]

if a healer could only survive for 15 seconds against 1 dps then their effectiveness in a warzone would be 0

 

everyone and their mom knows in any fight you want to win, you kill the healer first. this applys to everything, in every game.

 

so if all healers could be killed by 1 dps that has the same gear, that means 2 dps could kill destroy him, and 3 could smash him before he got off a heal.

 

the way it is now. a team of strait up full dps 8 man can give a team with 1 or maybe 2 descent healers a run for their money. its not easy but it can absolutely be done by "competent" people

 

you should not ever in any way be able to solo a healer. if you can, the healer failed or just hasn't gotten the gear yet.

 

on the other side. anyone who is dps should not be able to switch into heal mode and heal his team to full.