PvP in Update 1.2: The Failure of Ranked WZs

[Fredcat]

I sure as hell don't remember WoW having a "pre-season" for Arenas before their release.

 

Do you remember Blizzard doing about a year of development and testing before the Arenas were released to vanilla WOW? I'd choose a pre season over a closed beta every time, at least then I can provide feedback.

 

SWTOR has been out all of 14 weeks. Enough QQ already, development is a lot harder and takes a lot longer then some of you seem to realize.

[LordbishopX]

Some people think the cross server wzs are a lame bandaid to what the real problem is. Server population.

 

That is not a temporary problem and is only getting worse as we go

 

And where does it stop? Do we eventually just accept cross server LFGs because the server pops are all messed up?

 

A lot of people came from SWG and were hanging their hats on this game having some sort of community like that. So far it really doesn't, and it doesn't look like they care to try to create/preserve some sort of it.

 

Didn't Blizzard add Cross server wz, and raids? I don't see anything wrong with it at all in my book. I really could care less what server someone is on just as long as I can run a wz at a reasonable rate and not have to wait all day for one to pop.

Edited April 3, 2012 by LordbishopX

[AidenPryde]

WTB server merges.

[Varicite]

Some people think the cross server wzs are a lame bandaid to what the real problem is. Server population.

 

That is not a temporary problem and is only getting worse as we go

 

And where does it stop? Do we eventually just accept cross server LFGs because the server pops are all messed up?

 

A lot of people came from SWG and were hanging their hats on this game having some sort of community like that. So far it really doesn't, and it doesn't look like they care to try to create/preserve some sort of it.

 

So what is your suggestion for a solution to the real problem of server population, then?

 

Didn't Blizzard add Cross server wz, and raids? I don't see anything wrong with it at all in my book. I really could care less what server someone is on just as long as I can run a wz at a reasonable rate and not have to wait all day for one to pop.

 

Destroyed what little sense of community was left in that game, imo. Running dungeons became either silent snoozefests or melodrama w/ strangers. If they weren't and you actually liked the people in your group, WHO CARES, you'd never see them again in your life. I don't like this solution for PvE either.

 

I don't mind it for PvP, as WZs are decidedly less social affairs than most PvE content.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Varicite

[Varicite]

I sure as hell don't remember WoW having a "pre-season" for Arenas before their release.

 

And they really should have had a true pre-season. Do you not recall what Season 1 did to game balance in WoW?

 

Heh.

[xxIncubixx]

actually i like cross server, that way im not stuck with the same baddies over and over again... on both sides.

[ShadowOfVey]

actually i like cross server, that way im not stuck with the same baddies over and over again... on both sides.

 

Agree. I want to play with new baddies from a variety of different server types.

[Draeb]

A lot of you are missing the point of this thread, which is:

 

"If a match cannot be made for extended periods of time, then Normal and Rank queued players (except those who queued as a group of five or more) might be pulled together to launch a ‘mixed’ match."

 

 

I don't like the idea of queueing solo or queueing normal mode on my alts and then being placed with people that in a premade that are queued for ranked matches. Part of the reason they're doing this I believe is because the dominating from those groups who are queuing now.

 

I think it's time to start considering creating cross server pvp.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Draeb

[Nukor]

I'm surprised that nobody has raised the alarms over this very telling paragraph from the "PvP in Game Update 1.2" community news update on 3/30/2012:

 

This paragraph cements the Ranked WZ system as a failure even before its implementation. If your design relies on pooling players from the non-rated WZ queue to participate in a Rated WZ match, we're not talking about a Rated WZ environment anymore. Instead, and using your owns words, it becomes a "mixed-cluster****" that is not adequately prepared to mitigate the consequences of pitting players who are actively trying to PvP seriously with those who are there to PvP casually. This will create a divide of lopsided matches as we are currently experiencing in almost every WZ -- the 5-minute penalty of leaving a Rated WZ will be considered negligible by people who are accustomed to leaving games at the first sign of non-guaranteed victory compared to a 15 to 30-minute penalty which would have been much more stringent and effective in curbing the "Quitting-WZ" epidemic.

 

Call your "Pre-Season" what it truly is: a stress test of your Rated WZ to check that the mathematical equations utilized to calculate player rankings will function correctly before the implementation of the cross-server Ranked WZs. Until we get what was promised to us, this is nothing but a diversion from the failure of the current PvP framework and system we are subjected to grind (and almost forced to, in a certain extent) obsessively.

 

Why the hell do people insist on rambling "OMG sheet sux" instead of doing some actual research into what they're blabbing about. Throughout my life I witnessed what seems to be a steady decline in the overall intelligence of Western society and you sir, you back up my claims that we're all getting dumber by the second.

 

Read the damn patch notes you troll, the penalty is 15 minutes, not 5... http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=385795 Don't back-pedal either, those notes were posted before you made the original post, so you have no excuse for your own lack of knowledge other than sheer laziness.

 

Now as for the point you bring up about the mixed grouping. I can understand how the occasional game that you get matched with a premade and your pug dreams get crushed is enough to make you scared of what's to come. Put aside your fear for just a moment and seriously think about how the premades will feel when they have to wait it out for 15-20 minutes in queue, hoping to get competition, just to come up against a bunch of scrubs that don't even fight.

 

Yeah we'll get rating for it, but we want competition, not the piddly little rating change you're going to give us when you leave because you refuse to compete. Currently the pvp matching system already tries to match 4-man vs 4-man and guess what? When there's only one 4-man group running, we already have to wait 15-20 minutes to get into a match because the devs know damn well that we don't want to fight a bunch of training dummies.

 

Yes, the pre-season is meant to work out the kinks and don't get me wrong, the system is not perfect... but to come into the forums acting like you have any idea what you're talking about, spouting off like you've got the answers... it's uncalled for.

 

You should simply delete this thread because it's not based on fact, just more whining from players that can't/won't try to compete.

[Bnol]

I agree with 3 per group being fine.However I don't see why we couldn't just merge those 3,I'm pretty confident 1 server could handle it. Plus it would provide more guilds/people to do outlaws den pvp,world pvp if we ever get any again etc.

 

Right now they have to manually transfer characters from live to PTS. Thus, any sort of large scale server merge is going to require a new system be built to achieve this, not to mention the naming (both character and legacy) problems that would come with it.

 

Also, a lot of the leveling population problems were handled with the staggered launch. But without that staggered launch, you do not want too high of a server population for expansions as the linear nature of SWTOR leveling will create a logjam on the first expansion location, especially if they decide they actually want world PVP on PVP servers.

[Subatomix]

One issue I don't see mentioned often is that people are starting to lose patience with PVP in the game. We've leveled up. Many have full BM gear. Most are pretty tired of waiting for PVP queues. Pretty much everyone is weary of the current state of things.

 

Now with the huge (and only) carrot of a "rating" in warzones, even if only beta/pre, people who have grown weary will want to give it another whirl with renewed interest. It's like Lucy and Charlie Brown with the football.

 

If/when they have to wait 20, 30, 60 minutes to get a decent match, they'll likely leave the game. Note that we have no comment on when 1.3 and/or cross server pvp will happen. It will likely be several months at least.

 

Similarly, if the situation leads to some kind of massive imbalance (like the Ilum farming exploits have in the past) people may let go of their final grasp. I can see this happening on my server with larger teams queueing up for a rated zone then getting pit against a non rated motley crew ... essentially being able to farm rated tokens.

 

I'm not saying it WILL be a failure, but things ain't looking so good based on what I can see.

 

PVP on my server can really suck sometimes. The queues simply dry up and it's game over. Other times when my or another guild has our A team on playing pvp, it's roflstomp-o-mania which drives the other faction nuts.

 

The love that many of us have for pvp in this game is starting to fade. It needs a jumpstart, not another promise of things to come.

 

The game stands on the precipice of losing a ton of players. If they're not careful, patch 1.4 will add F2P to the game.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Subatomix

[Varicite]

The game stands on the precipice of losing a ton of players. If they're not careful, patch 1.4 will add F2P to the game.

 

Was this a Kreia reference? : O

 

Also, while I think you're right about the anxiety that a lot of PvPers are feeling, I think it would be wiser to wait until the pre-season begins and see how the system works for ourselves.

 

It may not be possible to "farm" points in mixed matches, due to fighting a team w/ such a low combined rating, etc., so it may not even be an issue at all.

 

If it is an issue, it's the pre-season, and can be adjusted accordingly before the actual season begins, which is why we're having the pre-season at all.

[Varicite]

actually yes. there is no server with enough players to have any kind of ranked pvp. if they grp servers to a cluster it might work a bit. but considering the low population they need to put all us servers in one grp, all europen in another etc.

 

this game is dead.

 

i am still around and probalby will stay another month as i stilll have some things with my current char i want to try out. but that's it.

 

I'm pretty sure my server can handle ranked PvP easily.

 

Ajunta Pall.

[DirtyDiggler]

I blame theme park MMOs, there will never be good pvp in a theme park MMO, because the design fails....

 

It fails at being a true mmorpg and it fails at the FPS shooter modes it steals from.

 

better if they didn't try to merge the two together.

[Regurgitate]

I'm surprised that nobody has raised the alarms over this very telling paragraph from the "PvP in Game Update 1.2" community news update on 3/30/2012:

 

 

 

This paragraph cements the Ranked WZ system as a failure even before its implementation. If your design relies on pooling players from the non-rated WZ queue to participate in a Rated WZ match, we're not talking about a Rated WZ environment anymore. Instead, and using your owns words, it becomes a "mixed-cluster****" that is not adequately prepared to mitigate the consequences of pitting players who are actively trying to PvP seriously with those who are there to PvP casually. This will create a divide of lopsided matches as we are currently experiencing in almost every WZ -- the 5-minute penalty of leaving a Rated WZ will be considered negligible by people who are accustomed to leaving games at the first sign of non-guaranteed victory compared to a 15 to 30-minute penalty which would have been much more stringent and effective in curbing the "Quitting-WZ" epidemic.

 

Call your "Pre-Season" what it truly is: a stress test of your Rated WZ to check that the mathematical equations utilized to calculate player rankings will function correctly before the implementation of the cross-server Ranked WZs. Until we get what was promised to us, this is nothing but a diversion from the failure of the current PvP framework and system we are subjected to grind (and almost forced to, in a certain extent) obsessively.

 

 

Whats wrong with the current system? you have to work for gear? oh noes.

[kercchaos]

All day long QQ... Haven't experienced new content already calling it a failure.

 

The failure here is the inability to be patient.

[Daxun]

So what is your suggestion for a solution to the real problem of server population, then?

 

 

 

Destroyed what little sense of community was left in that game, imo. Running dungeons became either silent snoozefests or melodrama w/ strangers. If they weren't and you actually liked the people in your group, WHO CARES, you'd never see them again in your life. I don't like this solution for PvE either.

 

I don't mind it for PvP, as WZs are decidedly less social affairs than most PvE content.

 

I'd merge. Of course I don't have to worry about how that looks, but I do think its the obvious answer. Or at least worth a shot.

 

I agree tho, xserver for pvp isn't near as bad as if they try to pass the pve equivalent. Still id rather have a full, active server that didn't need xserver to make rated WZs viable.

 

Meh, pipe dreams Truth is I'll prob play w/e

[hargrave]

I still find it funny that people arent realizing the affect of having a new warzone that you cant choose lol. Your gonna see some real qq when everyones dropping warzones to que for the new one......

[Varicite]

I'd merge. Of course I don't have to worry about how that looks, but I do think its the obvious answer. Or at least worth a shot.

 

I agree tho, xserver for pvp isn't near as bad as if they try to pass the pve equivalent. Still id rather have a full, active server that didn't need xserver to make rated WZs viable.

 

Meh, pipe dreams Truth is I'll prob play w/e

 

Probably the best solution at the moment. It was a terrible decision opening the extra servers to begin w/. They should have waited until they were actually necessary, and then opened new servers to accommodate the traffic. Raising the pop caps would have been enough, imo.

 

I always feel sorry for those who got stuck on now-dwindling servers due to sheer dumb luck. My sheer dumb luck landed me on a pretty active server w/ a great faction balance, where Republic actually stomps Imperials quite often. Heh, I play Empire.

 

You should check out Ajunta Pall if you find yourself getting antsy. I can't recommend it enough. : )

[SpaceGaunt]

This is a fact. WZ population on my server has dropped dramatically. During weekend prime time (last weekend) que times were long (10-15 minutes) and the groups weren't even full. That was just pre-50 WZ's.

 

Level 50 WZ's the same 8 players always faced the same 4 sages and 2 troopers, who by the way had the most healing and damage and we lost almost every game.

 

Either PvP is dead in SWTOR (I think it is) or everyone was playing alts or doing operations. PvP is a joke and with broken resolve and imbalance its no fun.

 

But then again this game was never meant to have a focus on PvP.

 

Oh really? a fact?

 

Gravity is a fact, people inevitably dying is a fact, clicking on funky links and getting a virus is a fact.

 

This most certainly is NOT a FACT.

[wolverstreets]

There is like one kickass pvp guild on my server. I'm going to see if I can get in before 1.2.

[ChairForceOne]

Then how would you like it to be launched? Some severs have such low pops that this is the only they'll ever group.

 

 

seriously, PvP'ers are the rotten apples of every MMO community. They all think they are gods gift to the game, they think they are entitled to everything, and all they do is complain about content.

 

i swear to god, if rock paper scissors was an MMO. you'd find a way to complain about it being unbalanced.

[Varicite]

Then how would you like it to be launched? Some severs have such low pops that this is the only they'll ever group.

 

 

seriously, PvP'ers are the rotten apples of every MMO community. They all think they are gods gift to the game, they think they are entitled to everything, and all they do is complain about content.

 

i swear to god, if rock paper scissors was an MMO. you'd find a way to complain about it being unbalanced.

 

Just out of curiosity, how would you like it if you went to do your NM Ops and instead of bosses that night, you got to fight a bunch of grey-level mobs? The Rated WZs are PvP's "Hard mode", so I can understand being upset at the prospect of fighting a bunch of puggers from non-rated queues. I think someone said that cross-server queues would be implemented before the season goes live anyway.

 

Not that I think this issue is a big deal or anything, but at least try to look at someone else's point of view from time to time.

 

Seriously, do you think that rated premades fighting non-rated pugs is going to be an enjoyable experience for anyone involved? <.<

Edited April 4, 2012 by Varicite

[VainEldritch]

Oh really? a fact?

 

 

Of course it's not. These forums are largely craptastic and anyone who wades through it needs to to take a mental shower after, or go in wearing a full bio-hazard suit.

[LenrocNewDawn]

@OP

 

It's going to be a pre-season. Ranks will be rolled back when the first season starts and when that will happen we will have cross servers queues and all premades will be pitted against premades.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Meluna
rude