Guard needs a counter

[Quor]

So the only viable counter strat is to stack rage marauders/juggernauts? Nearly all other AoE in this game is channeled or garbage tier. Is that really good for the game? Just shows how broken the combination of taunt/guard with a healer is.

 

DFA and Mortar hit plenty hard, as does Orbital Strike/XS Freighter Flyby (which is also elemental damage).

 

Yes, they're on cooldowns, but if a pair of BH's use DFA on a guard combo at the same time then they're going to screw that tank up hard. Proper CC on the healer at the right time will allow you to take the tank out easily.

 

Since all WZ's in this game are objective based, it's not hard to catch a healer/tank combo in some coordinated AoE. Most classes even have skills that ensure you can keep the combo in the AoE longer (via pulls, push or knockbacks).

 

And even the "channeled/garbage tier" AoE's have their use. Any guard combo dumb enough to stand in those AoE's will take significant damage, so they serve the role of forcing the guard combo out of the AoE. Chances are they will take the shortest possible route away from the center of the AoE, which usually means they go in different directions, making it easier to separate the two for a burst combo on the lower target.

 

Point being, AoE skills counter guard, and they counter it hard. It takes skill to understand when to utilize the AoE for best effect, but just because most people don't understand when and how to use AoE to counter guard doesn't mean guard is overpowered.

[dschlan]

Guard is easy to beat. Push/Pull the tank away and it's gg. Or, method 2, you can lock down the healer and all the DPS that gets transferred to the tank will wear him down. Just have 1 guy quick switch to finish him off, gg.

[TheNegotiator]

All that needs to happen is to fix the regen rate so healers will eventually run out of power if they spam heals non-stop. Right now that does not happen.

[Xsorus]

To counter guard, you only need 2 good DPS

 

1 DPS to focus hard on the guarded target, and 1 who can ignore Tank mitigation (Pyro Powertech or Annihilation Marauder for example) on the tank.

 

Most Healers simply won't be able to keep themselves up plus the tank.

 

Once the tank dies, the Healer does.

[Jarfunkz]

I haven't read the responses and I do not care to...

 

Countering guard...

 

1) aoe with both in vicinity- Tank will take 2x damage, interupt healer

2) separate the two- damage is not distributed between the two

3) focus fire healer, interupt- healer dies, tank dies

[Jarfunkz]

DFA and Mortar hit plenty hard, as does Orbital Strike/XS Freighter Flyby (which is also elemental damage).

 

Yes, they're on cooldowns, but if a pair of BH's use DFA on a guard combo at the same time then they're going to screw that tank up hard. Proper CC on the healer at the right time will allow you to take the tank out easily.

 

Since all WZ's in this game are objective based, it's not hard to catch a healer/tank combo in some coordinated AoE. Most classes even have skills that ensure you can keep the combo in the AoE longer (via pulls, push or knockbacks).

 

And even the "channeled/garbage tier" AoE's have their use. Any guard combo dumb enough to stand in those AoE's will take significant damage, so they serve the role of forcing the guard combo out of the AoE. Chances are they will take the shortest possible route away from the center of the AoE, which usually means they go in different directions, making it easier to separate the two for a burst combo on the lower target.

 

Point being, AoE skills counter guard, and they counter it hard. It takes skill to understand when to utilize the AoE for best effect, but just because most people don't understand when and how to use AoE to counter guard doesn't mean guard is overpowered.

 

uhhhh isn't mortar volley kinetic damage?

[Chaos_Distortion]

Yea, they'll nerf Guard, even though it's weaker then Warhammer Online, which had far better Healers and Tanks that were far harder to kill, and it was balanced there.

 

morons who don't know how to properly play want Guard nerfed.

Yep, I agree. Warhammer had far better pvp and guard never got nerfed. Warhammer also had tanks that could actually tank and healers that could actually heal.

[AstralProjection]

This dude is the thread winner.

 

 

They 100% had to adjust Op/Scounds before rated, or stunlocking premades would have been the norm.

 

 

But giving them the ability to get some stabs in that bypass guard in return, would be pro. It's a really good idea. I hope it carries.

 

I actually really like this idea too, and in the hands of one or two classes it's not game-breaking to tank functionality either.

[Darthshnooky]

This is a horrible idea.

 

The only things that tanks uniquely contribute to pvp is taunt and guard. They don't have incredibly higher hitpoints than dps in this game. Their defensive cooldowns can be amazing, but while they're recharging, the tank's defense is not much higher than other classes. Tanks in TOR do NOT really tank in pvp -- they can't take tremendous damage and survive like a tank in pve.

 

PvP tanks in TOR are there to help others. They are basically passive healers who prevent damage through taunt and guard. The only reason they are at all a threat in pvp (ignoring Assassin/Shadow tanks with more damage than they should arguably have) is because they reduce damage to other targets. Eliminate or nerf either guard or taunt and tanks in pvp become absolutely useless. Their damage does not begin to compare to a straight dps (nor should it) -- all they have is the ability to help protect others (NOT themselves) and some control abilities (especially Jugg/Guardians).

 

Just a truly horrible idea by someone who clearly has never played a tank in TOR pvp.

[SWImara]

Seriously the constant demands for DPS to be king vs. all gets pretty tiresome after a while. Playing a healer in PvP already looks a great deal less enjoyable with 1.2, why should tanks get tweaked as well just to make things easier for DPS to focus whoever they want. I don't necessarily despise the idea of an AC or two having a Guard breaker (all DPS specs are certainly not made equal at the moment) but the idea that healer-tank combos ruin PvP just needs to end. Why have anything besides DPS if the other roles are only intended to serve as speed bumps for DPS players. Edited April 3, 2012 by LexiCazam
Rude - quote/reply

[PhilCanuck]

There are plenty of ways to stop a tank. People need to stop asking to have the enemy's head presented to them on a platter.

[goulet]

It has counters, granted it requires team work and things people dont commonly do but the mechanic exists within the game to deal with it. who would have thought an ability that affects other people might take other people to counter it?

 

1. its proximity dependent, when the tank goes one way and the guarded person goes the other it will no longer work. That means cc them away. Knowing which tank class helps too, as if with juggs specifically they can leap to a friendly target and further reduce damage by 20% for a brief time.

 

2. The tank is susceptible to taking 150% of their normal damage. Split dps make sure you have more then one interrupt on the healer. employ cc's on the tank to avoid taunts further reducing damage, but be aware if your taunted and jump on the tank. i've played against teams that will drop off the healer the minute their taunted, and switch to the tank, and send in another guy to the healer.

 

3: everyone always wants to go with the aoe route for addressing the issue, its affective, problem is most aoes have cooldowns, and are best used when stacked with other peoples aoes.

now on the other hand while they can be purged, most people undervalue dot stacking in this situation. A: most of them are internal damage, and compromise the tanks defense. B: most dots have no cd and can be applied to multiple characters (ie the tank and the guarded). C: Several classes have dots regardless of spec, and additional ones from spec.

-Marauders/juggs: Bs dots but their dots nonetheless, and i guess force choke counts even if its channeled, for tanks its instant.

-Inquisitors: sorc specific ones, shared tree dots, crushing darkness

-Powertech: 2 dots if in the shared tree.

-Operatives: as long as their not heals 2 dots. one tree for snipers gives 2 dots, unsure about the others as i dont play them.

 

When you stack that stuff you create a base damage that the healer constantly has to address and manage, which helps you when you throw burst on top of it.

 

4: passive burst management. IE delayed damage. A lot of people dont think to stack attacks that have a delayed reaction time before inflicting damage, which is hugely beneficial for dealing with well healed targets.

-Every operative and sniper has "explosive probe" which deals about 3k damage to the target the next time they take damage and can be stacked. or even applied in succession.

-Every BH/trooper has their delayed damage aoe dart, and if their pyrotech(dont know repub name) they have a single target one that replaces it and does more damage. They can be stacked.

 

 

5: attack the targets based on the attacking classes armor penetration/damage type. Know who to put on the healer, and who to put on the tank

Tank

-Operatives 30% armor pen

-Juggs 20 % from sunder armor, additional 20 percent if their in the shared tree.

-BH can have their rail shot ignore 90 percent of their armor.

-Internal damage hoses defense.

*the armor pen approach is good for bh/trooper heals as well, as going the interrupt route with them runs into that dreadful shield that prevents interrupts.

 

Healer

-dot classes (the more damage taken at any time the more likely it is to pushback casting)

-Interrupts: some classes dont have them, some classes can spec to reduce them to severely efficient levels (BH advance prototype for one)

-Marauders/dps juggs wont have the energy issues that other classes have in long fights since their just rage based (do damage to do bigger damage), both have interrupts and gap closers that aren't affected by resolve of their target.

 

 

With all that being said, i would say you could make a rather reasonable argument for taunts to also incur a damage buff for damage done to the taunting tank. that way you are actually "taunting" someone to fight you as opposed to just reducing their damage and blowing defensive cd's.

[Veeius]

You have GOT to be joking. Guard is horrible. All it means is the healer now has to spam heals into TWO people. Complain about taunts, you'd make more sense.

 

Let me tell you what guard means to me - it means first off, I can kill that tank because instead of banging on his heavy armor, I'm banging on the healer's armor which generally is no where near as good.

 

Also, I'm rage spec, which means those high powered smashes? Probably hitting both the tank and the healer, which means the tank is eating 150% of those smashes.

 

I LOVE guard, it makes me giggle like a giddy schoolgirl to see tanks just fall over dead.

 

Also, another reason I like tanks in general - they do like 6dps compared to someone who is actually damage spec'd. Oooooh, crushing blow, scary. Ok, except that it hits about 1/2 as hard as a smash, and smash has a shorter cd, and crushing blow is unlikely to crit, but smash is guaranteed. And the plethora of stuns - thanks for filling up my resolve so someone who ACTUALLY can do damage can't stun me.

 

But yeah, sure, go ahead and nerf guard - then you can deal with the frustrated tanks who swapped to damage spec and gnaw your face off (which is what they should do anyways).

Edited April 3, 2012 by Veeius

[lijahrobinson]

Guard has a counter; Killing the person guarding.

[Ahhmyface]

It's true. Guarded healers are crazy invincible.

 

Deception Assassin and Concealment ops! gogogo!

 

Also, give me a break about tanking being the hardest to play. I DPS, taunt, and interrupt multiple targets at the same time as standard play.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[Coramac]

I don't care what class gets it, but Guard needs some sort of counter ability. Give the two most underperforming dps specs (I'd say 1.2 operatives and mercs--gives them something unique where some classes have trauma and some have a guard counter leading to a healthy combination of classes for ranked teams) a "guard break" that shatters guard for 5 seconds or something of the sort.

 

Right now, 2 healers + 2 tanks is literally unkillable. Two taunts being spammed massively reduces damage dealt and two guards on top of that allow healers to keep each other up while the tanks mitigate enough damage to stay above 50%. Before you come in and say "bu bu bu just separate the tank from the healer," it's almost impossible to keep a tank away from his healer unless you're a juggernaut (aka a gimped dps or another tank).

 

With guard and taunt, tanks have an enormous impact on a warzone by simply existing. A DPS or even a healer has to actively target switch, bait abilities, and focus on survivability at the same time. Address this imbalance by giving certain tank abilities reactive counters that force tanks to react, bait, and think.

 

I feel like healers in SWTOR are fine but a lot of the whining comes from tanks combined with healers. It's almost hell to solo queue as a healer when you have no active guard or tank helping you out. This leads to a balance nightmare where solo queue healers are in hell and are underpowered and where healers with multiple tanks are overpowered. It's nigh impossible to hit an in between for these two extremes.

 

Healers have to deal with interrupts/trauma and dps have to deal with taunts, guards, and the tremendous amount of CC in this game. Give guard some sort of counter.

 

The Counter to Guard is AoE. If you are running AoE burst builds, you can literally take down a 20k tank in the blink of an eye if you execute it on both the tank and the Guarded target. Guard damage bypasses pretty much all of a tank's mitigation. Straight damage reduction is the only thing that works. As the Guarded target is pretty much always going to be a softer target, you're looking at at least a 60% increase in damage on the tank.

[Sporticus]

Once again I will explain.

 

Attack the tank and healer at he same time,.

 

Keep interupting the healer's heals and keep attacking him.

 

The tank is now taking 150% damage whilst the healer is taking 50%

 

The healer can't heal both so has to make a choice and it's usually him first other second.

 

Tank goes down really quickly and now you have an unguarded healer.

 

Or if you don't have any friends then find someone else to attack.

 

/end thread.

 

With all the tools in this game, it takes just a miniscule amount of thought to find skills that are applicable to the problem. Nothing is going to make killing the tank/healer 'easy' but it's not nearly as impossible as you may think, barring the commando/merc uninteruptable bubble.

 

Well placed AOE, interupts, and stuns will negate alot of the outgoing heals, and sometimes (gasp) you actually are going to lose.

[Phaedrynn]

There are already a number of perfectly viable means of dealing with Guard. There is no need to add more.

[Jiminison]

The problem with this issue is synergy and certain classes have it . So when the group is majority healers BH and sorc just throwing heals all over the place with force lighting taking up the whole screen you don't see that as the problem . There is always going to be problems when certain classes or and abundance of one spec is present. Besides in my hutt ball games it's always maruders or sentinels scoring through force leap after bubbling half way down the field so what now. Use good strategy I usually just yank a healer off the top of the scaffolding because he will usually hang around ahead of of the pack. Part of your group needs to be picking off scragglers who post up or go ahead of the group it's just good strategy. Edited April 3, 2012 by Jiminison

[Solonius]

Guard only works when the players are near each other. (15m)

 

Seperate and Destroy. Pretty simple concept to combat.

[CaptainInsano]

AoEs are too weak to do enough threatening damage and most have cooldowns+require channeling so that's a very weak argument. The only legitimate AoE is Warrior/Knight Smash which has a lot of conditions attached to it. I predict stacking Smashes will be the only way to burn through tank+healer clusters which is going to lead to more complaints. Also, this isn't very compelling gameplay and encourages people to zerg up and spam AoE.

 

Separating the healer and tank isn't a very legitimate counter. Only two non-tank classes (Powertech and Juggernaut) can accomplish this on long cooldowns and 2/3 tanks can simply leap back to the healer's side and the other one has Force Speed to run back.

 

Plus all of this is assuming 1 healer and 1 tank. Add another healer healing the focused target and a tank on top of that switching his guard to whoever is taking damage, and you'll be hard pressed to take anyone below 50% health. The problem is tanking is too easy and too effective compared to the tactics required to 'defeat' it. A tank who knows to put guard on a healer, stand near him, and spam taunts is already contributing an insane amount of protection to a group. However, a team can overcome this with pinpoint target switching and coordinated burst. But when a tank is competent enough to switch Guard to the focused target, you have no chance of scoring a kill. All it takes is targeting a character portrait and pressing 1 button.

 

Guard needs to have a cooldown at the very least to prevent shuffling it around a group. I also agree with the need for a "guard break" ability on a decent cooldown. Tanks would still have taunt to mitigate damage along with their many CCs. It just wouldn't be so easy mode all the time and they would have to actually think about Guard.

[VoidJustice]

But when a tank is competent enough to switch Guard to the focused target, you have no chance of scoring a kill. All it takes is targeting a character portrait and pressing 1 button.

 

Umnn yea accept that you have to be in range to guard your target, you have to sacrifice most of your dps by being in soresu stance, both our taunts have significant cooldowns and can't be spamed and at least as a Guardian tank, I have the least hp of all classes, no mitigation against force or internal damage and must take the 50% of the damage Im guading against. Unlike most of you boso's believe Guard isn't free it's just a damage share.

 

Also if the dps is smart enough to simply scare the healer then turn and kill the tank the healer will heal themself as priority and the tank that just took AS MUCH IF NOT MORE DAMAGE THAN THE HEALER WILL EVAPORATE UNDER FOCUS FIRE OR RUN leaving the healer to die.

 

If the healer is smart enough to heal the tank... and the guard has some machismo to not run... simply stun the healer kill the tank... it'll take about 2 GCD's to evaporate the 5 to 6k hp that uber Guardian is still rocking after eatting 50% of the alpha the 2 dps dished out... unless your complaining you cant 1 v 2 a guard and healer at which point your worse than I thought you all were.

 

But yea there's no way to beat a Guard we solo Wz's.

 

Rawrrrr...

 

you guys are horrible.

 

really, horrible.

Edited April 3, 2012 by VoidJustice

[KalTorrak]

I love people that are defending this SOOO badly against the OP, Guard doesn't take skill? You hit 1 button and its PASSIVE for the rest of the game, all you need to do is stay SEMI close to the person.

 

And the other people are saying kill the tank then who is guarding the healer? ***, have you even TRIED this logic or are you just sprouting crap? Leaving a healer to free cast, yeahhhh right cause that's how your ganna take someone down with a healer just free casting on him lololol

 

4 Team players, 2 tanks 2 healers, good luck with that logic. Guard does need some kind of anti.

[Radared]

The dude is right...I haven't even read the pages upon pages in this thread, the bottom line is guard is ridiculous.

 

Playing a DPS and hitting a Hutball flag carrier for 200 and less when he has 21k HP just makes me want to not play this game. As pointed out, it gives healers tank type mitigation pretty much and there is no way for DPS to really "burn em down."

 

My solution is to give guard a CD and put a duration on it. Right now, its simply absurd in its current form. I am not saying DPS should just have free reign to blow people up, but give me a break here. We're seeing folks that can potentially be difficult to kill going to virtually impossible to kill.

[VoidJustice]

My solution is to give guard a CD and put a duration on it.

 

btw Guard has a duration... L2P!!!