MMO Design flaw

[DieAlteHexe]

The leveling process is there to teach you about your character and class...So you can perform in the end game.

 

It does that, yes but nothing says you can't have one helluva lot of fun on the way. This "grit yer teeth to get to level-cap" mentality baffles me especially since level-cap usually has relatively limited and repetitive content, especially on a new release.

[Jaymanus]

Odd, I have plenty to do. In fact, I'm sitting here this morning with a cup of coffee trying to decide what to do and not from a lack of things to do but rather from having lots of options.

 

Content only become "irrelevant" if you are constantly striving for "what comes next" instead of enjoying "what is now".

 

Yeah I find more often than not the people who complain about lack of content have one of three issues

 

1. They know the content is there but just don't like what is on offer. This does NOT mean there is no content just none that they want to do or like.

 

2. Don't know the content is there are are unwilling to look for it because if something isn't on a silver plaster it ant there.

 

3. A mix of the two.

 

What these people also fail to understand is that games are like movies or books or any other form of entertainment, they are completely subjective and what they don't like other may. Ones mans trash is another mas treasure applies to games as much as anything else.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Jaymanus

[Darnu]

Odd, I have plenty to do. In fact, I'm sitting here this morning with a cup of coffee trying to decide what to do and not from a lack of things to do but rather from having lots of options.

 

Content only become "irrelevant" if you are constantly striving for "what comes next" instead of enjoying "what is now".

 

well, that is how I play. But I'd like to spend time doing interesting things on my character I've already levelled on, done things on and obtained things like level 50 speeders and dare I say it gotten attached to etc instead of letting her be parked somewhere while I'm forced to have to play other characters simply because goals were accomplished so quickly no matter how much I took my time to explore and not skip over? I'm not the only one who feels this way. If you're going to make a new game, why force players to follow a narrow path you lay down instead of catering your game to players? Choice in what you do makes you feel good about what you're doing. Being forced/not-so-subtley channeled to do something doesn't.

[Moromillas]

I think the only problem with the missions 1 - 50 would have to be the motivation (or lack thereof). You see an npc go over and start talking, and it's a mission, but it feels like more of an erand, or galactic pest control, there's just no personal investment for my character to do a lot of those missions. Not all of them, but a decent amount of missions I think were like this, the story ones were quite awesome.

 

I think it's true that a good deal of the content players spend time with is end game, but the leveling missions are a big part too, it's what the player does first when they log in for the first time. Especially the starting area, if it's not interesting they may just log out and not bother to do the rest.

[DieAlteHexe]

well, that is how I play. But I'd like to spend time doing interesting things on my character I've already levelled on, done things on and obtained things like level 50 speeders and dare I say it gotten attached to etc instead of letting her be parked somewhere while I'm forced to have to play other characters simply because goals were accomplished so quickly no matter how much I took my time to explore and not skip over? I'm not the only one who feels this way. If you're going to make a new game, why force players to follow a narrow path you lay down instead of catering your game to players? Choice in what you do makes you feel good about what you're doing. Being forced/not-so-subtley channeled to do something doesn't.

 

See here's the thing...for once I DON'T feel forced in an MMO. Not a bit.

 

And I think they are catering to players, just not the sort of players that most others seem to cater to. There are plenty of MMOs...trick is to find one that suits "your" desires for playstyle. Another trick is not to try and change one that isn't into one that is. I could understand that approach if there weren't already a lot of MMOs, but there are. I've tried numerous MMOs only to find that they didn't suit me. I moved on. I didn't expect the creators to change their game to suit my needs.

 

The ones that do, get my money. The ones that don't, don't.

[Sithgrayjedi]

I love leveling. The purpose of an end-game character is for several reasons. 1: helping others with lower level content. 2: helping to fund and gear your own lower level characters. 3: A feeling of accomplishment that you have completed the game.

 

This being said, I also enjoy getting people together to do something that is both difficult and rewarding. This is impossible to do while leveling if you always obtain assistance from an endgame leveled character. This leads to the need for end-game content. You may no longer be gaining levels once you hit 50. You may not be receiving experience and new abilities, you no longer have to worry about having enough rested experience to help speed up tomorrow's leveling once you're there. What it means is that in order to progress you need to do things like raiding and PvP, to perfect your already top powered character. You're still leveling, but not in the same way. End game leveling is slower, and the rewards are much less rewarding. Often to obtain the best gear you will have to do things that require a group effort and aren't the most fun things in the world to do, but these things result in the most rewarding gear; so they are justified.

 

Why did I post this huge wall of text? I did it because there are justifications for the endgame grind and there are justifications for just leveling. If you're not enjoying the game because you feel it has a focus on one or the other, then I'm sorry. Bioware is trying to please both sides of this argument by encouraging and rewarding both those who level by adding the legacy system and those who wish to just play their one level 50 character and not touch any other characters.

 

Its not bioware's fault if your guildmates or the majority of players on your server aren't playing regularly. Talk to your friends, talk to people, encourage people to play the game, and you will see more players on your server as your RL friends start to join. I like this game mostly because I know people I'm playing with, even one or two RL friends can make the game 1000% more enjoyable.

[Vindigore]

To that I say: Hurrah! We hard-core altoholics tend to stick with a game longer than the folk who hit level-cap and, understandably, get bored with doing the same thing again and again (raids, etc.). I've seen far, far more people complain about being bored at level-cap than I have being bored playing alts.

 

Exactly that. In a previous MMO I kept my subscription for 1,5 years without ever entering a raid the whole expansion. Was too busy leveling all classes to max level, perfecting their crafting and occasionally testing the PvP with each of them to see the game from their PoV. (During the next expansion I did raid because I didnt have to start from the beginning in each class and I knew what each class could do).

 

I dont get it why most MMO's force us to stick with a char from start to finish (because if we dont we lose playing time with him=>grind for xx item/rep/craft etc). How can I be sure which char I prefer the most, if I dont play all of them? Not for some 10-20 lvls, but all the way, since some classes start to shine later than others. Oddly enough, I tend to like almost all the classes this way - I find the fun in every aspect. Not to mention that by playing all the classes, you learn the game better, you know what you can do and what others can do around you - a great skill for a group guide/leader.

[_Metaform]

To that I say: Hurrah! We hard-core altoholics tend to stick with a game longer than the folk who hit level-cap and, understandably, get bored with doing the same thing again and again (raids, etc.). I've seen far, far more people complain about being bored at level-cap than I have being bored playing alts.

 

 

Well I hate to say it as there's quite a lot I enjoy in this game but I'm actually one of the few who are bored playing alts here.

 

I'm also a serious altoholic.

 

...Wait, what?

 

I'm not kidding. Having the same linear path through the planets on both factions really has gotten to me. Class stories are fantastic. PvP Warzones are fast paced and exciting (I actually do enjoy Huttball. No I will not seek help) but they do need to be taken in moderation as there's only 3 maps so far, planetary missions are good typically...but only the first two times. Mixing up replies and alignment only do so much when Republic Balmorra is the same war-torn crater that I helped save a few weeks ago the first trip though, and hardly different from Imperial Balmorra.

 

I don't have the option to go to another planet (or a races leveing zone as in WoW) and level with "fresh" scenery. Yes there is level overlap between planets, but only one for each level range. Bonus series are nice when they exist or are available at your level. Sure there's Warzones and instances but it takes a heap of them level off of. There aren't any quests in the planet quest line that send me to secure an objective in a 4man instance for bonus xp and loot. Space missions are there too, yet I don't really get into those which is no ones fault. I'm already getting burnt out of it but the class stories admittedly keep me sawing through the other stuff.

 

I understand how old this game is, I've been here since early access and the last few builds of the beta. I'm also a 12 year gaming vet...newby. In vanilla WoW, when I grew tired of the human/dwarf side of things I had the option to go over to the other continent and do the elven/future spacegoat areas. Instances had a lot of elites which gave decent experience, better if rested, so taking the time to do them helped; more so when you unlocked/discovered the quests for them.

 

A lite meal, someone said? Indeed.

 

I've always believed MMO's to be about variety and I happen to think that's why other games focusing on just one element such as PvP, as discussed earlier, failed to prosper.

 

Lets not even get into things like rare mounts, non-combat pets and other random "distraction" items or events that are in short supply here.

 

I've read peoples assumptions about EA rushing things, and simply given the massive Star Wars universe (which I grew up on) I think that may be the main reason things seem lacking to me.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a very fun game most of the time and has mountains of potential, especially considering the lack of grade A sci-fi MMO's and the endless canon to draw inspiration from. This certainly is not the first or last MMO to be launched lacking certain "replay-ability" or "distractions."

 

Apologies for the length and pointless ranting. The quote just sparked what I've been feeling lately. Maybe I'm growing impatient, or just spoiled from playing games with more options and distractions. Maybe I'm right again and need to let this one grow.

 

...Curse you Bioware for cooking a fantastic, addictive meal but forgetting the "filler" (I hate that word as it's always used negatively these days. Turkey stuffing is filler and mighty tasty too!).

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[Korghal]

Hey i would like to get opinions, does anyone enjoy leveling? lets be honest its always the same 4-5 quests over and over, yes ill admit the story in this game is pretty cool, But why is a mmo designed for a grind to cap level where i would say a real mmo starts, they put so much into the leveling process end game fails for a long time. i mean there is currently 3 battlegrounds.

 

why not design mmo's around end game instead of the tedious leveling process?

 

Leveling is to have a sense of progression, and i completely agree its done totally wrong in most games. Asherons Call had the perfect blueprint for this. Max level was 126(at start), however at level 40-45 you could do anything while in a group. And if you ever hit 126 you could still gain XP which was put into your skills. If you wanted to max out a skill you need as much xp as you need for level 1-126. So it took a while.

 

If a new game comes out with this model, im dropping everything else to play that.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Korghal

[Darnu]

About specialization, I agree that it would be best if a company could cater to most players. I just haven’t seen it done. Between myself, my wife, and some of my friends, we can swap stories about = EverQuest, UO, City of Heroes, WoW, Eve, STO, DCUO and now TOR. And in all of those discussions / word of mouth / board posts…

 

…it’s one big Solo vs Group vs Raid vs PvP vs…. every…other…thread…. Granted, my sample size is small, and, friends being friends, I’m likely with like-minded people… but there’s a lot of upset people in most MMOs. Cater to all doesn’t seem to work. If you have an MMO (possibly including one I’ve listed) that you think balances things well, I’d love to hear your thoughts about it.

 

 

Too tired for a TL;DR, sorry for the ramble Darnu. Take care.

 

The single and absolute biggest concerns about PVP vs PVE debate stem from when they make character adjustments and balances to suit PVP and it affects PVE and vice-versa. The simplest solution is to make character abilities work differently in PVP and PVE, ie work differently on players to creatures/beasts/non-players etc. This gets brought up a LOT in World of Warcraft. I think it's something they've thought about doing, some abilities have always worked differently on players than PVE targets, but when it comes to expanding on that and actually creating separate systems the answer always remains the same: too much work, not enough time, too hard to create, too hard for new players to learn their character. And so each time changes come in (and in the last few years they have VERY heavily been PVP balances) which affect PVE watch the flames rise.

 

Gear is a bit of a debate, but SWTOR having expertise also increase damage as well as reducing incoming damage reduces this argument. BUT, a PVP player typically cannot perform in PVE while in PVP gear. Sometimes with some items the difference is none at all to neglible, but other times it's massive and makes PVP gear completely unviable. So there's always going to be a PVP gear in PVE debate. Those are the only 2 real issues. The rest is just who's more skilled etc and just players being players, kids being kids etc.

 

The setting in SWTOR could be just so massive beyond the scope of any game we've seen so far. And could therefore accommodate so much. The game itself and the potential hardware/dev teams etc is already larger than anything we've seen. I don't believe it's unrealistic or fantasy to say that SWTOR could be a huge game with so much making other games pale in comparison. The realities involved with SWTOR almost leave it open to be a "you've seen it or thought of it, you like it, we can add it" scale of game. And on top of that a Star Wars one. It's not a stretch of the imagination that even just tweaking the game within just the world already in-game, that with some love and care, this game could be mind-blowing.

 

The crux of the levelling/endgame/pvp issue for some truly IS "why spend money and resources on something that I don't like when you could spend more on what I like instead" and the point-scoring begins (and you'll see a fair bit of this in forums). And its a sad day when MMORPG players don't see that having all kinds of people playing the game is good for the game and for you and brings MORE players, and gives you things to do which are different for you. If there's any game in existence which could keep different players happy it's this one.

 

And no, not rude. It came as a surprise that you don't like MMO's in general. You're a good example of a reason why I don't want this game to fail, actually. But if it does go the direction of a niche only market then I've lost out but it's not a matter of winning or losing. It shouldn't be, anyway.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Darnu

[Darnu]

To that I say: Hurrah! We hard-core altoholics tend to stick with a game longer than the folk who hit level-cap and, understandably, get bored with doing the same thing again and again (raids, etc.). I've seen far, far more people complain about being bored at level-cap than I have being bored playing alts.

 

I see a lot of people who have raided/pvp'd/player-housing typed (I don't know what that's called, sorry) shouting out a giant "hello". Of course you stick with a game longer than players who get bored. But the ones who don't? Why must this be a competition to you? Stereotype anything and you've already lost.

[DieAlteHexe]

I see a lot of people who have raided/pvp'd/player-housing typed (I don't know what that's called, sorry) shouting out a giant "hello". Of course you stick with a game longer than players who get bored. But the ones who don't? Why must this be a competition to you? Stereotype anything and you've already lost.

 

Erm.

 

Competition? What are you on about? Either you're swinging blindly or I'm losin' my mind. I never said anything about a "competition".

 

Eh, nevermind. I'm not in the mood for this today. You have a nice evening, 'k?

[Cadiva]

I do not play so-called "end game content". I loathe PVP and hate raids. Leveling and questing is why I play. In 5 years of WoW I never got a single character to top level.

 

Any questions?

 

tl;dr Your opinion is not absolute truth.

 

I agree, although I have got chars to max level in most other MMOs I've played, so that's the only bit where we're not the same.

[AirborneJedi]

SWTOR is pretty nice so far and like all new games it has much room for improvement. Personally I feel swtor needs to step back and think some things through before they add too much to this game that will take it in the wronge direction. They need to look at what made everquest and wow popular for so long (and what ended them) and design this game with those things in mind. Honestly, nobody wants to pay for and play a game in which all the gear, skills, and abilities are "cookie cutter". Who wants to grind to 50 and at the end and along the way, everyone is basically identical? People like to earn unique gear, abilities, mounts, skills, and so on...things that set them apart from the crowd for going above and beyond what others are willing to do. Basically, give people the options and abilitities to be as uber and unique as they can be.

I am a huge fan of pvp however, I really hope swtor doesn't turn this game into aion with it. Personally, I would like to see dedicated pvp and pve servers so that people can choose rather or not they want to play either. That will allow for more tailored gear and abilities that better fit the game style and fun. For example, it would be easier to find groups to pvp with if the server were a pvp server meaning people on it like to pvp whereas if it's all combined then you have to search among a pool of people who don't like to pvp at all and visa versa.

Lastly, take the companions out of this game and give players the ability to hold their own. I mean, it's an MMORPG and people are supposed to group and adventure together, right? If you can level all the way to 50 quickly solo then there is no incentive to be social and group ( which leads some people to kill steal and such because there is no need to worry about your reputation). Yeh, there's flash cantent and such that require a group but still campanions are replacing people and the need for different classes in a group or groups altogether. I'm just saying it gets boring soloing all the time because few people need/want to group up to quest and such.

Again, this is a great game with great potential and I'm in no way complaining. I'm just adding my 2 cents =)

Edited April 1, 2012 by AirborneJedi

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[JacenHallis]

So tell me the difference between WoW giving a text box about how Farmer Jones needs you to kill 10 ogres plaguing his fields and TOR giving a voiced cutscene about how Farmer Smith needs you to kill 10 pirates plaguing his moisture vaporators.

There is no difference. However, I've seen TOR do this only once: the very first Jedi Knight class quest. Even then, though, the NPC didn't say, "Go kill 10 flesh raiders." He said something like, "These flesh raiders are a threat. Go out and see if you can take care of them. We'll be in touch soon."

 

The rest of the time, TOR quests are very much what quests in real RPGs are like: Go find the artifact in the Czerka base. Board the Darth's ship and confront him. Retrieve our stolen supplies from the pirates.

 

The "Kill 10/40/whatever mobs" quests are bonus missions. They're there, sure. But they're completely optional. If you can sneak by them and not kill anything while completing a quest, then you still get the xp for completion. You just don't get the extra experience from the kills and the bonus quest. Sometimes you do have to kill mobs to get quest items. No big deal.

 

So, your comparison is hardly an apt one. WoW quests definitely were "Kill X mobs" quests for the most part. In TOR, the missions have a purpose besides genocide. The genocide is just a fun option.

Edited April 1, 2012 by JacenHallis

[Dekkau]

What is missing from all MMO style games these days is the ability to lose yourself in it. Although others may criticize WoW, in the early days I was playing my own game and it was all working at a different pace, speed, depth to everyone else. That is cus the variety of game options meant that you could start say in Teldrassil then move to Loch Modan or go to Westfall. I could take up the various craft chains or just level my class through a variety of paths. The quests took you often across various lands and continents. I recall spending a whole night trying to get across a Horde infested area and scared stupid of the ten level higher mobs. The game was as challenging as you wanted it to be. And sometimes when I finally braved the desert and crossed the mountains and avoided the elite in the water to find the wreckage on the coast just to die endlessly at the hands of the spawning pirates I still felt invigorated when I did it. And often I would get back to my capital and really feel I was the hero and wanted to share my experience with others. Your endeavours were reflected in what you wore and what you rode and being Ambassador felt good. But sadly after TBC the game went linear... And every game since has gone linear. And everyone just wants cap. And you get it drummed into you like every bloody day playing an MMO. Sad. And this game is linear to the extreme...

 

I guess I was never happier than when I had grinded Raven Hill Cemetary to the extreme and could finally take on Mor'ladim... And actually when I placed his ring on his tomb and listened to the tale I was truly touched and it did make sense... Sad really. But then I was totally absorbed by the thing... and that vault, before all the dumbing down was bloody difficult to get into with all the plague eaters... The amount of times I died. Happy days.... Grinding. All gone now.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Dekkau

[boxfetish]

I do not play so-called "end game content". I loathe PVP and hate raids. Leveling and questing is why I play. In 5 years of WoW I never got a single character to top level.

 

Any questions?

 

tl;dr Your opinion is not absolute truth.

 

This. ^

 

 

I tried a bit of raiding with my guild in Everquest and WoW. I did RvR with my guild in Warhammer. I will play for a while after capping, but I will rarely raid and never do ridiculous side B.S. like warzones or arenas. Those retarded things don't belong in MMORPGs.

 

I will not be doing any pointless warzones or operations in this game. I fully plan on quitting once I have played through the story on around 3 different classes.

[K_Schrimer]

pshh

 

I just enter: up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, a, b, select, start, and go straight to the end game anyways.

[Darnu]

What is missing from all MMO style games these days is the ability to lose yourself in it. Although others may criticize WoW, in the early days I was playing my own game and it was all working at a different pace, speed, depth to everyone else. That is cus the variety of game options meant that you could start say in Teldrassil then move to Loch Modan or go to Westfall. I could take up the various craft chains or just level my class through a variety of paths. The quests took you often across various lands and continents. I recall spending a whole night trying to get across a Horde infested area and scared stupid of the ten level higher mobs. The game was as challenging as you wanted it to be. And sometimes when I finally braved the desert and crossed the mountains and avoided the elite in the water to find the wreckage on the coast just to die endlessly at the hands of the spawning pirates I still felt invigorated when I did it. And often I would get back to my capital and really feel I was the hero and wanted to share my experience with others. Your endeavours were reflected in what you wore and what you rode and being Ambassador felt good. But sadly after TBC the game went linear... And every game since has gone linear. And everyone just wants cap. And you get it drummed into you like every bloody day playing an MMO. Sad. And this game is linear to the extreme...

 

I guess I was never happier than when I had grinded Raven Hill Cemetary to the extreme and could finally take on Mor'ladim... And actually when I placed his ring on his tomb and listened to the tale I was truly touched and it did make sense... Sad really. But then I was totally absorbed by the thing... and that vault, before all the dumbing down was bloody difficult to get into with all the plague eaters... The amount of times I died. Happy days.... Grinding. All gone now.

 

Yep, that's about how I played wow when I first started. Took me forever to get anything done. So many places to see and do and interesting things. Duskwood? Used to be epic. It brought low-levels, high levels, hoardies. The STORIES in Duskwood. Dark to say the least.

 

Do what you want when you want pretty much. Duel with anyone anywhere. Show off your latest talent/ability and get to find out about other classes and what they've got. Getting taken to places you didn't even know existed by people who had played the game before and you didn't have quests in your log telling you to go there. No need for anything like quest-helper. Grab enough quests be on your way and no doubt somehow you'd find something for a quest. There was no need to do them all. Stay as long as you want in a zone or as little as you want before you move on, be it sideways to identical level or on to the next one. Got a quest that isn't fun? Don't do it, and just do the ones that were.

 

There was a difference between levelling as quickly as you could to reach max-level. Once it becomes linear there isn't any difference. The only difference is this: Did you enjoy what you were doing while you were doing it? Because everyone's doing/done the SAME thing. People who became engrossed in the story and felt immersed in the world still did the exact same things as people who "powered" through the content.

 

There is very little choice to be had in the current model. Particular planets are in specific level brackets and are pretty much inaccessible before you get to that level and redundant afterwards. Leaving 2 quest hubs for relevant content.

 

Hitting max-level should not mean character progression stops and a gear grind begins. If you liked a particular planet you shouldn't have to roll an alt to experience the planet in a meaningful way.

 

The current system in SWTOR makes it so that to experience story and content that's out in the world you need to be levelling. Once you've hit 50 you're pretty much relegated to Fleet. That is a major problem which shouldn't exist. Splitting up the population by levels is going to split up the population and that's not conducive to creating a community.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Darnu