lexiekaboom Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 You people have no clue, "hybrid" needs a nerf, infiltration needs a big buff. Don't post if you don't know what you are talking about, fools. There is no hybrid. It was nerfed out already. There are two builds; madness (balance) and tank. Both are pretty much in line with other classes, although tank is a little buff PVE. Let me help to understand what's really going on, so you can ignore it and go back to QQing because they killed your sorc. Madness is burst damage. The damage the do is in line with other burst dmg dps classes, and they should be compared closest to OPs (as they are a stealth class). They trade the lack of any real opener or finisher for much more utility and survivability. You can really argue either way who gets the better deal. Most will say madness because not dying is always good, but people very much overstate the importance of staying alive in PVP. Given you respawn with full mana and often right in the action, dying is sometimes the better option to barely surviving and healing up, as long as you are alive long enough to pad you dmg and kill numbers. Tank is powerful PVP, but nothing out of line with the other tanks. Burst damage is non-existent and a heavy reliance of defence means they don't block a lot of the attacks you get hit with in PVP. They also ware light armour. A powertech is going to out damage and out tank them, as will a jugg post 1.2. In returns, shadows have mobility and stealth, two of the tools most lacking from tanks, which makes the trade off more then worth it. In PVE, where defence works and the powertech advantage of elemental dmg goes away as the armour debuffs stack up, shadows are the most damaging tanks by a long shot, and I could see them called "op". So why do people call them OP in warzones? Diversity. Tank and madness are both awesome PVP builds, and people use BOTH of them. So you get killed by a madness ***. (who you could easily kill in a stand up fight) and go looking for revenge, finding a tank ***. who just stands there not taking any damage for a bit before getting board and running off. A few second later, a madness ***. comes out of stealth and kills you. So you start thinking OMG this class has insane damage and can't be hurt. OP! OP! OP! And to everyone saying "no they need a buff" it's because you noticed I only mentioned two builds. It's because the 3rd build, the stealth one (which a lot of people wanted to be) simply isn't viable. You do more damage in tank spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksidechemist Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I do agree with this but at the same time a Battlemaster sin in tank spec with dps BM gear played well is a god lol... bolded for emphasis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zintair Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Stop trying to defend your obviously OP class, you sound like a sorc or an operative. The assassin/shadow nerfs are coming, your easymode is going to be taken away. They aren't coming noob. They just buffed us the past two patches. They aren't going to re-nerf us. They are happy where we are and we are in a good place. Slightly on the favorable side after they butchered us in BETA. We are balanced. Get over it. DPS KC tanks are gonna get rolled come Rated. Only the VERY BEST will make their mark, this is NOT an OP spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyndeta Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 bolded for emphasis... Which is only 5% of the Shadow/Sin Population. So we are safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 So outplaying others is not allowed? I beat shadows/assassins just fine 1v1 on my operative. Thing is in group pvp operative brings 0 utility, while shadows/assassins bring the most utility crammed on 1 class bar none. And while operative defense is based around not getting hit, (hello tinfoil armor, my favorite prey on WZ, are OTHER operatives... just because they die so quick)... ... shadow/assassin (tank spec) has much stronger dmg mitigation and defensive cooldowns... while the dmg loss due to tree choice is not that big. TLDR : are shadows strong 1v1 ? yes, but operative is better (top level play) are shadows strong in group fights? yes, but if you prefer raw damage(with pocket healer) marauder/rage juggs are better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaar Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 What a surprise, yet another nerf Sins/Shadow's thread. The truth is there are a LOT of bad players in this game A LOT and unfortunately it's these players who tend to be the most vocal, especially when they get beat by a GOOD player, they call it OP and head to the forums. Firstly the spec you are complaining about is NOT a hybrid, it's full 31point Tank Spec in DPS gear, it is NOT a hybrid, Bioware already nerfed hybrid specs for this class. It performs that badly as a tank that people prefer to play it in DPS gear, blame bioware for not thinking through tanking properly. Bad players make this class look OP, I come across so many player who are seemingly clueless with how to handle the way this class plays. Mercs who spam tracer missile, Sorc's who spam Force Lighting. Snipers who don't attempt to kite and think they can face tank you while trying to cast their big hits. I have beaten players 2v1, not because the class is OP, it's because the people I am fighting are terrible. I beat 2 Juggs in a voidstar by kiting their melee attacks and strafing in and out for mine, they were horrible, horrible players who had no clue how to fight me. I use line of site, I kite, I know what abilities other classes use and how they use them, I know how to play my class, a lot of people don't and this is the end result, baddies crying on forums. The good players, who know how to play their class can counter me and can kill me, there are operatives that can burst me to almost dead from the initial stun, Marauders and well played juggs , well played PT's, even Lethality/Engi's (that can kite) can give me trouble IF THEY ARE PLAYED WELL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmasterr Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Which is only 5% of the Shadow/Sin Population. So we are safe try 0.1% of players are actually pro ... and i am being generous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Against sin tanks, you want to use your Force Camo vs their 3-stacked FLs. Good sins will pop Force Shroud before hitting you with their FL to prevent stuns/KBs. The only way to counter this ability (which hits like a truck and heals 12% of their health) is to Force Camo as soon as you see it. If you don't neuter their FL, you will lose the fight. Marauder's ability to force camo out of FLs remains unchanged in 1.2 That's why you should use FL as soon as possible instead of building 3 stacks. Trading a 2 stack FL for your Force Choke/Force Camo is not a bad deal. There's no reason for me to assume I'm going to get a better deal than this and you have to use your Force Choke/Camo at some point. Marauders have no KB to worry about. If I didn't screw up I can assume I get to trade my Electrocute for your Undying Rage, so the fact that I traded a 2 stack FL for your Force Choke earlier is something I can live with. The problem with Force Camo is that you're taking 4 seconds of dots while the Marauder is healing from the dots, and he obviously gets the final hit in after it wears off since you can't see him. After 1.2 there's no more damage invulnerability so an Overload should pop the stealth (at least all other form of stealth gets popped by damage) which prevents you from having an extra 4 seconds of breathing room to mount a comeback. Edited March 28, 2012 by Astarica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 try 0.1% of players are actually pro ... and i am being generous. You're going to see a massive improvement in Assassin gameplay in 1.2 once parsers are available the same way Replays made everyone suddenly a lot better in Starcraft. There's never anything hard about playing Darkness but a lot of people insist on playing it the wrong way because it feels *right*. You can't argue with them because there are no parsers so all you have at best is WZ charts which people will argue about 'intangible benefits from my non DPS'. When you see that this rotation does 20% more DPS on a training dummy than some other rotation even the most ignorant of people will have to accept they're doing it the wrong way, and the optimal Darkness rotation is mindbogglingly simple (only 3 buttons and can be done with 1 macro if macro existed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alric_Annondu Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Shadows are the most OP class in game, without a doubt. But your post is a massive hyperbole. The FOTM effect is actually much, much smaller than people make it out to be. Very few people ever re-roll a class just because it's overpowered. That's what you said about Assassins too. Stop QQing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celebrus Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Everyone is going to make one with Legacy, because of how OP the class is.... Then they'll have to turn around and nerf them in 1.3 Warzones will be over 50% Shadows/Assassins. Masses of SWTOR Nerds will rage because they leveled a Shadow and then it gets nerfed. I would be vastly better to bring their nerfs now, with all the other class changes. So, I don't know if anyone caught this, but when they *first* nerfed the op/scoundrel they started the cycle of nerfs/buffs that most MMOs constantly struggle with from day one. Too many people playing ops/scoundrels? Nerf. Now the sorcs/sages are happy. Too many people rerolled sorcs/sages? Nerf. Now the shadows/sins are happy. By 1.3 shadows/sins will be overpopulated and will be nerfed. Making ops/scoundrels happy again, and the cycle will begin anew. As I've said before, they're simply walking in big brother wow's footsteps. Where it leads ToR shall follow, and class balance will be no acception. Edited March 28, 2012 by Celebrus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathelia Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I've said the entire time it was the Shadows / Assassins that need rebalancing. Everyone seemed to keep quiet and keep it under the radar, but the good players knew this for a long time. +1 for a Shadow / Assassin rebalance. you seem like noskilled pvper that cries on the forum if he gets beaten.. go get some skills etc. don't come here and whine cause you suck in pvp , okey?! assassins wont get nerfed more so stop trolling the forums. democracy ftw . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) What a surprise, yet another nerf Sins/Shadow's thread. The truth is there are a LOT of bad players in this game A LOT and unfortunately it's these players who tend to be the most vocal, especially when they get beat by a GOOD player, they call it OP and head to the forums. That's rich coming from someone who spent the last couple months on the forums saying sorcs need nerfing. Edited March 28, 2012 by Caelrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celebrus Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Snipers who don't attempt to kite and think they can face tank you while trying to cast their big hits. You should try kiting a tank shadow/sin on a sniper before making a ridiculous comment like this. Unless you're at the top of the HUTT BALL arena, you're not kiting a sin/shadow that actually wants to kill you. Snipers have one single speed increase built into a stun (with talents), they have one knockback, they have one single target snare, and if spec'd right, one slow. The one class that we're halfway decent at kiting is Maras, for the most part, a sin/shadow or op/scoundrel with a functional brain will eat us alive. A tank shadow has force speed with a built in snare break, a pull, force slow, a stun, a knockdown, and a slow built into force lightning. If you're being kited by a sniper that isn't at the top of the hutt ball arena knocking you down, you suck, period. Edited March 28, 2012 by Celebrus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vimm Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Shadows are the most OP class in game, without a doubt. But your post is a massive hyperbole. The FOTM effect is actually much, much smaller than people make it out to be. Very few people ever re-roll a class just because it's overpowered. I'm pretty sure powertech is the most overpowered class in the game at the moment. Edited March 28, 2012 by vimm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 You should try kiting a tank shadow/sin on a sniper before making a ridiculous comment like this. Unless you're at the top of the HUTT BALL arena, you're not kiting a sin/shadow that actually wants to kill you. Snipers have one single speed increase built into a stun (with talents), they have one knockback, they have one single target snare, and if spec'd right, one slow. A tank shadow has force speed with a built in snare break, a pull, force slow, a stun, a knockdown, and a slow built into force lightning. If you're being kited by a sniper that isn't at the top of the hutt ball arena knocking you down, you suck, period. This is exactly right. Being unable to kite a shadow isn't a L2P issue. We simply can't be kited for more than a second or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmarx Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) The truth is there are a LOT of bad players in this game A LOT and unfortunately it's these players who tend to be the most vocal, especially when they get beat by a GOOD player, they call it OP and head to the forums. Weren't you the one calling for sorc nerfs, in multiple posts, for the last few months? Allow me to refer you to your own quote above. Oh yeah. Edited March 28, 2012 by Redmarx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaar Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 That's rich coming from someone who spent the last couple months on the forums saying sorcs need nerfing. Sorc UTILITY from the hybrid spec needs tweaking, sorcs themselves don't need a nerf, it's the utility just from that spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celebrus Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Sorc UTILITY from the hybrid spec needs tweaking, sorcs themselves don't need a nerf, it's the utility just from that spec. Yikes. Personally I think it would have been better if you were asking for sorc damage nerfs or something. Calling for utility tweaks for other classes when you're playing the only class in the game that has access to every damn tool in the book is ironic. Edited March 28, 2012 by Celebrus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphashado Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 31/0/10 is the standard cookie cutter tank spec. People are using said spec in pvp using dps gear. There is no viable hybrid spec anymore. Many people are seeing deception, darkness, and madness assassins in pvp and assuming they all have access to all the same abilities. Please do not scream "nerf the class" w/o fully understanding which particular tree offers particular abilities. The Darkness tree has defensive abilities because it is a TANK BUILD. It will not be getting nerfed because by doing so you would be gimping PVE assassin tanks. solo killing a tank SHOULD BE hard. Solo killing a healer SHOULD BE hard. This has been the case in all mmos for a decade. Is it unfair in pvp? Maybe. But over nerfing tanks and healers just to satisfy pvpers would break the game. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmarx Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Sorc UTILITY from the hybrid spec needs tweaking, sorcs themselves don't need a nerf, it's the utility just from that spec. So you were nerf-calling on sorcs because of their "utility", but you think shadow/assassin with: - force pull - force speed - aoe snare - taunt/guard - multiple stuns/disorients for CC - stealth - tank survivability and immunities doesn't need a nerf? I refer you to your own quote below: The truth is there are a LOT of bad players in this game A LOT and unfortunately it's these players who tend to be the most vocal, especially when they get beat by a GOOD player, they call it OP and head to the forums. Edited March 28, 2012 by Redmarx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaar Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Weren't you the one calling for sorc nerfs, in multiple posts, for the last few months? Allow me to refer you to your own quote above. Oh yeah. Look through my history find ONE post that I started, calling for a sorc nerf...oh that's correct there aren't any. The UTILITY needs tweaking, not the class itself, I replied to a couple of posts explaining why people call for nerfs on sorcs, purely based on their utility. That is hardly me calling for nerfs in multiple posts over the last few months. Your just another one of these internet crusaders who seem hell bent on getting shadows nerfed. Once they nerf shadows, you'll move onto crying about another class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) Sorc UTILITY from the hybrid spec needs tweaking, sorcs themselves don't need a nerf, it's the utility just from that spec. Riiiiiight. So nerfs are ok when it's you asking for them... Look through my history find ONE post that I started, calling for a sorc nerf...oh that's correct there aren't any. The UTILITY needs tweaking, not the class itself, I replied to a couple of posts explaining why people call for nerfs on sorcs, purely based on their utility. That is hardly me calling for nerfs in multiple posts over the last few months. . Clue us in on the difference between the utility of a class and the class itself. It's a meaningless distinction. Nerfing a class' utility is nerfing the class. Calling it a "tweak" and pretending it's to the utility and not to the class (which makes no sense whatsoever) doesn't change the fact that YOU are a nerf-caller. Edited March 28, 2012 by Caelrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaar Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Yikes. Personally I think it would have been better if you were asking for sorc damage nerfs or something. Calling for utility tweaks for other classes when you're playing the only class in the game that has access to every damn tool in the book is ironic. Are you honestly saying that Shadows have more utility than sorcs /sages in their hybrid spec? HONESTLY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaar Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Riiiiiight. So nerfs are ok when it's you asking for them... Pointless trying to have any kind of discussion, with someone who is so blinkered in his/her opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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