So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

[Darth_Sookie]

When the competetive elements of this game wants gear progression and character advancement it's because "we want to be carried by gear".

Whereas causals feel they should have a clear progression path all the way up to the best gear for little to no effort.

 

 

Why can't us hardcore players have something to work for that actually takes effort and teamplay to get? I want to feel i earned the gear, not getting it handed to me by merely participating in PvP.

 

Sure competition is it's own reward, which btw is why i'm still racking up lots of games daily even though there is no tangible reward in it for me except more titles. But just as the causals want gear progressions, so do we. Even if the gap is a small one like champ to bm gear, it's still nice to have stuff to look forward too.

 

Ranked players will spend most of their time in ranked warzones so it's not like we will spend all out time ganking you in non ranked.

[Artthen]

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Thanks!

[Proppa]

I'm not into gear progression. I plan on competing in Ranked Warzones, because that in itself should be reward enough. I can't see how you can implement a ranking system, yet still have a gear discrepancy as the rankings are kind of null and void then. Some/I would argue your only that rank because you had/started with better gear or had more time to play.

 

DAOC had web-based "rankings", where the top 25 per class/per realm/per server were listed, who achieved the best total RP that month/entire game.

 

So, being that #1 spot felt like a reward in itself. Knowing you where the best of that class for that week. I never needed an advantage through gear to want to play and never played games with gear progression.

 

I know I may think completely different to lots of people, but we all have different gaming experience and goals. I like competative gaming, everything being equal mean's you can better yourself MUCH more, rather than kind of yawn whilst rolling that fresh 50.

 

I could have EASILY had full BM Gear on my Sorc by now, but because I wanted A:- To play more htan just huttball and B:- to play on the underdog faction I re-rolled republic with some friends. I hit 50 way before they did so I rolled another alt so I could continue to PvP with them. Then I hit 50 on that alt and saw patch 1.2 notes so I'm rolling yet another toon who is now 40+.

 

I could have stuck to 1 toon and grinded to Valor 60/Full BM gear but I don't play for shiny gear. I play because I like playing with friends/people, I like being competative, I thouroughly enjoy PvPing all things being equal and I like to know that my win, was because I played better, not just because I had better gear.

[RabidPopcorn]

I'm not into gear progression. I plan on competing in Ranked Warzones, because that in itself should be reward enough. I can't see how you can implement a ranking system, yet still have a gear discrepancy as the rankings are kind of null and void then. Some/I would argue your only that rank because you had/started with better gear or had more time to play.

 

DAOC had web-based "rankings", where the top 25 per class/per realm/per server were listed, who achieved the best total RP that month/entire game.

 

So, being that #1 spot felt like a reward in itself. Knowing you where the best of that class for that week. I never needed an advantage through gear to want to play and never played games with gear progression.

 

I know I may think completely different to lots of people, but we all have different gaming experience and goals. I like competative gaming, everything being equal mean's you can better yourself MUCH more, rather than kind of yawn whilst rolling that fresh 50.

 

I could have EASILY had full BM Gear on my Sorc by now, but because I wanted A:- To play more htan just huttball and B:- to play on the underdog faction I re-rolled republic with some friends. I hit 50 way before they did so I rolled another alt so I could continue to PvP with them. Then I hit 50 on that alt and saw patch 1.2 notes so I'm rolling yet another toon who is now 40+.

 

I could have stuck to 1 toon and grinded to Valor 60/Full BM gear but I don't play for shiny gear. I play because I like playing with friends/people, I like being competative, I thouroughly enjoy PvPing all things being equal and I like to know that my win, was because I played better, not just because I had better gear.

 

so.. how would SWTOR work without gear?

[Proppa]

Open World PVP Fails in this game so far, because there is nothing meaningful to work towards.

 

I'm not trying to force "DAOC's" system into this game, but for those who never played it, it may give you an idea what kept some of us playing for so long.

 

In DAOC you had 3 factions == 3 frontiers. In each frontier you had 2 relic keeps, 6 or 7 main keeps, then 4 towers surrounding each keep.

 

Whoever controlled the most towers, gained access to a dungeon called Darkness Falls, which provided a great place to XP, aswell as good "salvage" gear for crafters.

 

Each Tower provided small bonuses, aswell as defensive structures to retreat to if you wanted to capture more towers etc.

 

With Keeps, the outer-edged keeps with all towers would allow you to teleport to that keep from your home realm. Making invading and more RvR action. Each keep would offer small bonuses to xp/cash gain etc.

 

Then, you had the ability to capture enemy relics, each realm had 1 Strength Relic and 1 Power relic. So it was possible for 1 realm to hold all 6 relics, for 20% melee and/or 20% power maximum bonus.

 

This gave players an incredible incentive to defend their home realm, but strangely enough 20% in DAOC really didn't seem to be the be all-end all it is in SWTOR. I guess because of the class dynamics were considerably better than in SWTOR so far.

 

You also gained Realm Ranks (just like Valor), which had 10 realm levels inside. Each level would grant you a Realm Point which you could use to buy certain abilities both passive and active. Things like purge, the more you invested the more frequent you could use it. This would remove all negative effects. Also things like +4/8/12/16 or w/e to your stats.

 

You also had Master Levels, Champion Levels which helped to progress your toon. All of which are gainable through PvP.

 

But with SWTOR there is nothing to do, besides queue for warzones and especially on the lower pop servers, the strong get stronger and the weak get bored trying. I know in a night of PvP I would often get put up against the same group of players game after game. These would generally consist of full BM premade + 4 other random players. Whereas Republic are often varying in gear etc, just to not having the gear to start with really.

 

Also, Ilum was completely Empire controlled from the get-go. It wasn't too bad when you could trade the mech's, but as soon as that changed you either found people kill-trading, or on my server, Empire would just complete hose down the Republic due to having atleast 2x the numbers. Giving them a much better oppurtunity to complete their daily/weeklies. Then that progression became far more apparent in warzones.

 

Now, 1on1, it probably isn't a problem. But you get full teams who focus fire down 1 or 2 players and you get some serious challenges which from what I've seen is impossible to counter.

 

I play with some friends in Vent, I will call for assist on whichever target I see. Primarily Snipers/Gun Slingers then any Healer I see and call for CC's and cycle etc. So we are all hitting the same target which often encourages other people to him them with us. But there is such a difference when we aren't all in full champ gear, that in some of the cases even when we focus fire we aren't able to get through and drop them.

 

Long story short, the strong get stronger and the weak give up, atleast that's what I see on my server. Not feeling competative isn't fun.

 

PvP progression / incentives can come from so many different area's not something which provides such a huge advantage.

 

(From the other post)

[Tiresias]

True hardcore PvPers don't care one lick about gear progression -- they only care about improving their own skills so that they can win fights that are not slanted by artificial imbalances.

 

One of the worst concepts that World of Warcraft introduced to the MMO market is the idea of PvP gear progression. It put PvP players on a progression treadmill just to stay even with each other in terms of artificial improvements -- advantages gained not through skilled play or teamwork but through little more than time investment. Even the so-called "rated" arena gear was a time-based progression grind that simply took longer to complete the later that you joined in the system.

 

True hardcore PvP players want an even playing field. They want the characters themselves to be operating at the same statistical capacity so that their personal skill and teamwork capabilities can shine through. Whether they win or lose, they want it to be on the merit of their abilities, not because their character's gear gives them a 10% performance advantage over the other team.

 

There are other ways to reward success in PvP: mounts, non-combat pets, shiny gear, unique emotes, titles, etc. These needless but desirable things are called "trophies" and they exist in real life as well.

 

The people who truly care about PvP would be fine with everyone being handed a free set of PvP armor upon hitting level 50 so that when they beat someone that person knows that they were simply outplayed.

[Proppa]

As for what I would suggest, well that's hard now. Valor has become so easy to obtain that we already have Valor 100 players, so making rewards based on Valor is impossible now.

 

But the biggest concern, is that casual gamers will simply find themselves unsubbing once they reach 50, if they aren't able to compete or don't have the best gear. The casual gamer's make up a considerable portion of the MMO and without them would make the game difficult to sustain. I would much rather cater to those as my skill level would still hopefully put me out on top.

 

But anything which creates a barrier to me isn't fun, as it means PvP isn't based on skill.

[cashogy]

True hardcore PvPers don't care one lick about gear progression -- they only care about improving their own skills so that they can win fights that are not slanted by artificial imbalances.

 

One of the worst concepts that World of Warcraft introduced to the MMO market is the idea of PvP gear progression. It put PvP players on a progression treadmill just to stay even with each other in terms of artificial improvements -- advantages gained not through skilled play or teamwork but through little more than time investment. Even the so-called "rated" arena gear was a time-based progression grind that simply took longer to complete the later that you joined in the system.

 

True hardcore PvP players want an even playing field. They want the characters themselves to be operating at the same statistical capacity so that their personal skill and teamwork capabilities can shine through. Whether they win or lose, they want it to be on the merit of their abilities, not because their character's gear gives them a 10% performance advantage over the other team.

 

There are other ways to reward success in PvP: mounts, non-combat pets, shiny gear, unique emotes, titles, etc. These needless but desirable things are called "trophies" and they exist in real life as well.

 

The people who truly care about PvP would be fine with everyone being handed a free set of PvP armor upon hitting level 50 so that when they beat someone that person knows that they were simply outplayed.

 

this post says it all. 100% spot on

[Vashforth]

When the competetive elements of this game wants gear progression and character advancement it's because "we want to be carried by gear".

Whereas causals feel they should have a clear progression path all the way up to the best gear for little to no effort.

 

 

Why can't us hardcore players have something to work for that actually takes effort and teamplay to get? I want to feel i earned the gear, not getting it handed to me by merely participating in PvP.

 

Sure competition is it's own reward, which btw is why i'm still racking up lots of games daily even though there is no tangible reward in it for me except more titles. But just as the causals want gear progressions, so do we. Even if the gap is a small one like champ to bm gear, it's still nice to have stuff to look forward too.

 

Ranked players will spend most of their time in ranked warzones so it's not like we will spend all out time ganking you in non ranked.

 

This is the exact reason why Blizzard made arenas... its the "raid" equivalent in pvp....

[Proppa]

I also forgot to add, that whilst 1 realm could have the full relic bonus, if that happened you had the 2 other factions that could work together to topple them. So that bonus soon went out the window with numbers.

 

In SWTOR the bonus is there regardless and is far more significant in 8v8 warzones.

 

And it had stat caps / braeking points, so you could get so far stat wise then that was it almost.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Proppa

[Adzzy]

gear creates artificial hurdles in a rating system, rating should be a somewhat linear growth model, not one that has spikes based on some arbitrary gear restriction point.

[Shlamorel]

I consider myself to be closer to "hardcore" than "casual", and I wish that the major distinguishing factor between "casual" (low rank) and "hardcore (high rank) gear be mostly aesthetics (in other words, giving the "hardcores" a more attractive PvP armor set).

 

I don't mind maybe slight stat bonuses going to "hardcore", but even then I enjoy an even playing field when I play someone. This helps me learn and see what I'm doing right/wrong. Because of this, I don't enjoy having PvP gear that is much better than others below me in rank - I just don't get as much fun out of it.

 

When my gear is much better than those below me, it's hard to distinguish between gear vs. skill.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Shlamorel

[Groncho]

even fields of stats makes the pvp better

theres no discussion in that

is how pvp must be

*coordination

*awareness

*tacticts

*timming

*speed

 

that makes a match funny

[Daxun]

I'd be happy with just the different colored rated gear to show our "progression" if it wasn't set up the way it is.

 

As it is, there's no point in even buying/wearing a rated piece until you're 2200 and have the entire set. I won't be running around with red boots and gloves while the rest of my armor is blue :/

 

How hard would it have been to create 3 different colored rated sets? Full set of each color at maybe 1600, 2000, 2200...

Edited March 28, 2012 by Daxun

[unclekaula]

Do you have any idea how much easier itd be for a true pvper, who has just hit 50, to rip faces if he's instantly on the same playing field as everyone else?

 

Wheres the challenge if everyone has the same gear as me? You guys sound like a bunch of pve casuals who are upset because they cant pvp.

[Shlamorel]

Do you have any idea how much easier itd be for a true pvper, who has just hit 50, to rip faces if he's instantly on the same playing field as everyone else?

 

Wheres the challenge if everyone has the same gear as me? You guys sound like a bunch of pve casuals who are upset because they cant pvp.

 

Well, everyone has a different opinion.

 

Have you tried level 1-49 PvP lately? Many people are doing that because it's so much fun. The playing field is generally even, so what it comes down to on 1v1 is, in general, related to skill. The biggest caveat I would have to this is if the person is too low level (below 15 for sure, perhaps below 20), they don't really have enough abilities yet.

 

Let's say everyone had the same exact stats and you fought someone 1v1 at level 50. What would determine who won?

 

My opinion (and it's fine if you disagree - many do) is that skill would be the determinant. To me, that is much more enjoyable and can give winners a much greater sense of pride. I'm a War Hero with full BM gear, and killing someone with fresh gear doesn't feel satisfying to me. What does feel satisfying is knowing that I used all of my class's tricks (ability interrupts, knockbacks, force slow, etc.) to win the match.

 

We'll see where 1.2 takes us with PvP stats - it's all in BW's hand.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Shlamorel

[Ghostmachine]

As for what I would suggest, well that's hard now. Valor has become so easy to obtain that we already have Valor 100 players, so making rewards based on Valor is impossible now.

 

But the biggest concern, is that casual gamers will simply find themselves unsubbing once they reach 50, if they aren't able to compete or don't have the best gear. The casual gamer's make up a considerable portion of the MMO and without them would make the game difficult to sustain. I would much rather cater to those as my skill level would still hopefully put me out on top.

 

But anything which creates a barrier to me isn't fun, as it means PvP isn't based on skill.

 

Quoted for truth.

 

As I've stated previously PvP gear progression is a bad idea. There have been good suggestions in this thread to create a middle ground but the fact of the matter is if we're talking substantial stat differences it imbalances so many aspects of game play that it simply seems like a waste of development resources.

 

I want as many players to have a chance at being competitive, whether that's in ranked Warzones, regular Warzones, or open world PvP. Experience becomes wisdom. Wisdom in this case means I don't need a statistical advantage if I have skill and practice.

 

Experience tells me that the people who are asking for tier progression will grind out their gear, stop participating in ranked PvP use that gear to face roll on Illum or non-ranked PvP. Later when everyone catches up with them, and they no longer have better gear, they will come to the forums and whine about having nothing to work for until Bioware releases a new set off gear.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

Why do I sound so certain that this is the case? Because I, and many others, have seen this cycle over and over again. And it's one of many good reasons why there shouldn't be a PvP gear grind. I'm sorry, I mean PvP gear progression.

[Sith_Cho]

I remember when true hardcore pvp players were actual pk players and we didn't care about the best gear, we always looked for the gear that didn't DROP ON DEATH.

Putting in pvp gear progression is just another timesink to make you play more that's all.

Even in sanctioned tournaments they force all players to wear the same level of gear and not use add-ons to ensure a level playing field.

That's what the idea of "rated" warzones really are for.

Besides if you get a thrill killing someone who can't even dent your hps then pvp isn't what your looking for, perhaps just epeen kills.

killing someone who has the same level of gear than you or your team beating another team in a close match is what gets the blood pumping, no excuses just a good skills match.

[Kaarsa]

Do you have any idea how much easier itd be for a true pvper, who has just hit 50, to rip faces if he's instantly on the same playing field as everyone else?

 

Wheres the challenge if everyone has the same gear as me? You guys sound like a bunch of pve casuals who are upset because they cant pvp.

 

LOL? And where is problem with fact that a true skilled player will be able to win fights against bad players who happen to be lev 50 longer than him? This is how it should be. Time played for pvp should matter only if your playing skills improved by practice, not because you have uber pwn gear.

 

You sound like pve casual or really bad pvper if you think that fact you played 200h more than other players gives you right to start fight with gear advantage.

[Proppa]

I agree with the guy above, who said about the 10/49 bracket. I'm having a huge ammount of fun in there and generally matches are much closer. I had a match about 10 minutes ago, where it was in Huttball and neither team managed to score, the enemy had the ball within the last minute, we killed them and passed it away.... they got to us and eventually took out oru ball healer, with honestly 2 seconds remaining.

 

That was an exciting and fun game, with my friend screaming in vent just as he died.

 

You call us PvE casuals because we want equal gear and things to be based on skill. So what on earth does that make you, if you feel you need to have a significant gear advantage over players to win?

[TUXs]

LOL? And where is problem with fact that a true skilled player will be able to win fights against bad players who happen to be lev 50 longer than him? This is how it should be. Time played for pvp should matter only if your playing skills improved by practice, not because you have uber pwn gear.

 

You sound like pve casual or really bad pvper if you think that fact you played 200h more than other players gives you right to start fight with gear advantage.

 

Agreed! Only players who LACK skill want/demand better gear.

 

People who spend more time PvPing will naturally be better because they are more experienced. They've seen what works and what doesn't. They've lost Alderaan enough times going for the 3rd turret that they learn to stick with 2. They've learned not to stand on the edge of the goal in Huttball. They've learned that leaving the door and chasing that lone Sith, even for a sure kill in Voidstar, can cost you the entire match. Good/true PvPers don't need or want gear to be the deciding factor.

[Achyllis]

This game MUST allow casual players to enjoy PvP if PvP is to remain of interest to the dev team. I see a simple solution to the stat imbalance. You're already using it in the sub 50 bracket.

 

Let players have access to improved stat gear as their valor increases - no problem. The carrot is there for those who need it. In ranked warzones, full gear bonuses count. Folks playing ranked shouldn't be crying about anything but outright hacks.

 

In unranked warzones, limit the expertise stat so that the ranked award gear defaults to the same expertise bonus available to new/casual PvPers. Casuals can enjoy competitive PvP and better geared players have a more challenging (aka fun) experience in unranked matches.

 

In open world situations I say full stat bonuses apply. If you get your butt kicked and you feel it's gear related then stay out of the open world PvP areas.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Achyllis

[Ashraman]

I'm not into gear progression. I plan on competing in Ranked Warzones, because that in itself should be reward enough. I can't see how you can implement a ranking system, yet still have a gear discrepancy as the rankings are kind of null and void then. Some/I would argue your only that rank because you had/started with better gear or had more time to play.

 

DAOC had web-based "rankings", where the top 25 per class/per realm/per server were listed, who achieved the best total RP that month/entire game.

 

So, being that #1 spot felt like a reward in itself. Knowing you where the best of that class for that week. I never needed an advantage through gear to want to play and never played games with gear progression.

 

I know I may think completely different to lots of people, but we all have different gaming experience and goals. I like competative gaming, everything being equal mean's you can better yourself MUCH more, rather than kind of yawn whilst rolling that fresh 50.

 

I could have EASILY had full BM Gear on my Sorc by now, but because I wanted A:- To play more htan just huttball and B:- to play on the underdog faction I re-rolled republic with some friends. I hit 50 way before they did so I rolled another alt so I could continue to PvP with them. Then I hit 50 on that alt and saw patch 1.2 notes so I'm rolling yet another toon who is now 40+.

 

I could have stuck to 1 toon and grinded to Valor 60/Full BM gear but I don't play for shiny gear. I play because I like playing with friends/people, I like being competative, I thouroughly enjoy PvPing all things being equal and I like to know that my win, was because I played better, not just because I had better gear.

 

I believe this viewpoint is better suited to a non-subscriber based FPS MMO such as BF3 than SWTOR, a subscriber-based MMO. Character progression is a defining feature of MMORPG's. I loved games like Guild Wars and the Battlefield series, but stopped playing each of them after a few months as without character progression, games become stagnant to me and I'd rather play something new.

 

I look forward to playing BF3, and expect it to be a fantastic game, but there will be other fantastic games a few months after that that will pull me away from it, forever. By way of contrast, I remained a subscriber to WoW for most of the time period from its launch to the launch of SWTOR, with a few short interruptions. To me personally, PvP and PvE are both important, but PvP takes priority. One reason (although not the only only reason!) WoW kept me onboard as long as it did was that it featured gear progression in PvP.

 

Query: Is Bioware making an error by catering to the preferences of casual players who by and large are not active in PvP currently, if in so doing they alienate a sizeable portion of the SWTOR playerbase that currently regularly participates in PvP? Many of these people based on their comments seem to have already decided to move on to other upcoming MMO's such as the next Guild Wars title that are not subscriber based. If they discover that gear equality does not resolve their perception of personal poor performance in SWTOR's PvP, are these the type of people who will stick it out, or jump ship?

 

I hope everyone contributing to this thread keeps in mind that different people like different things, and there is nothing wrong with that. This also means that Bioware will not be able to make everyone happy with the choices it has and will make regarding updates to SWTOR. The consequence is that some people will leave, and others stay. I'm not pleased with Bioware's decision not to have tiers with stat upgrades of ranked war gear. I'm not going to quit over this issue, but it will be a factor I consider when trying out The Secret World and ultimately deciding between the two.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Ashraman

[Ashraman]

Agreed! Only players who LACK skill want/demand better gear.

 

 

You are not the appointed representative of all PvPer's "with skill"; you should only state your personal preferences and refrain from making absolute statements that cannot be proven.

 

The stat differences make no difference in WoW's rated PvP because all players at a certain ranking will have similar gear. The same would be true in SWTOR's ELO-based matching system, to the extent there is ever any PvP gear progression. However, I have personally not met a skilled WoW Arena contender who didn't enjoy getting upgraded gear as a reward for time invested and performance, and I have spoken to more than a few over the years.

[TwitchWINs]

True hardcore PvPers don't care one lick about gear progression -- they only care about improving their own skills so that they can win fights that are not slanted by artificial imbalances.

 

One of the worst concepts that World of Warcraft introduced to the MMO market is the idea of PvP gear progression. It put PvP players on a progression treadmill just to stay even with each other in terms of artificial improvements -- advantages gained not through skilled play or teamwork but through little more than time investment. Even the so-called "rated" arena gear was a time-based progression grind that simply took longer to complete the later that you joined in the system.

 

True hardcore PvP players want an even playing field. They want the characters themselves to be operating at the same statistical capacity so that their personal skill and teamwork capabilities can shine through. Whether they win or lose, they want it to be on the merit of their abilities, not because their character's gear gives them a 10% performance advantage over the other team.

 

There are other ways to reward success in PvP: mounts, non-combat pets, shiny gear, unique emotes, titles, etc. These needless but desirable things are called "trophies" and they exist in real life as well.

 

The people who truly care about PvP would be fine with everyone being handed a free set of PvP armor upon hitting level 50 so that when they beat someone that person knows that they were simply outplayed.

 

Spot on! wtb arena