thominoh Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I miss my sandbox elements.. The ability to have all my alts to grow up differently. (so to speak).. I'm not talking pure sandbox like Eve or SWG, but mini sandbox like original EQ1 (pre PoP).. Every single one of my 8+ toons had a different bio.. When I mean bio I mean career in leveling.. Different zones, different groups, different mobs.. I had more freedom (paths) to level.. What I find interesting is how much players LOVE to "mix and match" their skill points and/or talents, but when it comes to actual game play, they prefer 1 themepark ride.. I would gladly trade in less character development for more character content.. Meaning.. Instead of giving dozens of different ways to customize my character skills, give me dozens of ways to level my character.. EQ1 touched on this slightly, and for that game released in 1999, we didn't go very far since.. In my opinion.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I miss my sandbox elements.. The ability to have all my alts to grow up differently. (so to speak).. I'm not talking pure sandbox like Eve or SWG, but mini sandbox like original EQ1 (pre PoP).. Every single one of my 8+ toons had a different bio.. When I mean bio I mean career in leveling.. Different zones, different groups, different mobs.. I had more freedom (paths) to level.. What I find interesting is how much players LOVE to "mix and match" their skill points and/or talents, but when it comes to actual game play, they prefer 1 themepark ride.. I would gladly trade in less character development for more character content.. Meaning.. Instead of giving dozens of different ways to customize my character skills, give me dozens of ways to level my character.. EQ1 touched on this slightly, and for that game released in 1999, we didn't go very far since.. In my opinion.. This is why I wished they put in some optional zones without voice acting, just with text dialogue (making them quicker, easier and cheaper to develop). No main story quests in them, but if you wanted a different levelling path for your Nth alt you have one. Although I guess SWTOR is always going to feel a bit disjointed compared to say EQ1 as, of course, it uses planets rather than large landmasses broken into zones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattgyver Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 What might makes right argument? Why are you trying to insinuate something that isn't there? I'm just explaining that themepark = working formula. Rather than ask me to come up with yet more proof that it is true, sandbox people have to show me that sandbox is a guaranteed market. Eve Online doesn't even have one million subs, and this is a game that encourages people to have many accounts each, further reducing the number of real players. If the most successful MMO game in the world happens to be themepark, then themepark works. If WoW is slowly dying, it is less to do with the themepark formula being outdated and more to do with the fact that it is the same game for 8 years. For argument's sake, lets pretend that we are in an alternate universe that you are right, that themepark is a dying formula. You cannot change the fact that for 8 years, themepark works. You only look at the end stages of WoW, but you cannot deny themepark has never stopped WoW from entertaining people for 8 years. Do you tell companies to stop creating RPG games because no one plays the original Zelda game after 8 years? Do you tell companies to stop creating FPS games because no one plays the original Wolfenstein after 8 years? Do you tell companies to stop creating puzzle games because no one plays Tetris after 8 years? (trick question, people still play tetris) Yeah what a surprise, after 8 years people are bored of WoW. But that doesn't mean themepark is suddenly outdated, or sandbox, the unproven concept, is starting to thrive. Why do some RPG/FPS/puzzle games fail? Because they are terrible, not because the genre is outdated. Themepark is proven to be a guaranteed formula not just from WoW, but from the predecessor that it copied, Everquest. Your post was an argument for This formula is greater so all other formulas are weaker and not viable. That's an outcome that limits the variety for play. You say the theme park option is the biggest financially and therefore it wins. Thus Might makes Right. You are the one that used WoW as an example and for whatever reason, it is in decline, so the market is shifting a bit as developers try to find out what may differentiate their product from the industry standard. To oppose this shift is to embrace a homogenous design approach for MMOs. I don't think that even needs to be explained as to why it is bad for all games to be the same but with different skins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattgyver Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I’ll start right off by saying that my suggestion will never happen… but I wish it did. I’ll explain why it won’t happen later. However, I’m going to do a seemingly random tangent first. TL;DR = Putting Sandbox / Themepark / Single Player with Co-OP / etc… descriptors on the retail box / DL Website as mandatory would allow for different styles of online games that you’d know right out of the gate what you’re getting. Sad that I can’t see it happening. I likedthis post, and I agree. There was a lot of secrecy before the game came out, and I wasn't in beta til November. I knew the game was largely themepark but I still made the emotional decision to keep playing because it is Star Wars and I though it was a cool idea to use the ancient times. Now I still play because I'm hoping there will be more to the game later. The flavor of many of the posts suggests that I am a minority in this on the mass scale, but in a sizeable group amongst disgruntled forum users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thominoh Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) This is why I wished they put in some optional zones without voice acting, just with text dialogue (making them quicker, easier and cheaper to develop). No main story quests in them, but if you wanted a different levelling path for your Nth alt you have one. Although I guess SWTOR is always going to feel a bit disjointed compared to say EQ1 as, of course, it uses planets rather than large landmasses broken into zones. I agree completely.. In fact I wouldn't even bother with "quest" all that much.. Make the zones more like "camp" locations for singles and groups.. And use NPC's for item trade ins instead of quest rewards.. You get item turns in rewards instead.. Toss in some repeatable heroics and let the players choose their own paths.. Edited March 30, 2012 by thominoh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justduet Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Its a themepark alright, but not a bad foundation.. they just need to add in more random time sinks to keep people doing stuff. I hate to bring up "that other game" but they had stuff like minipets to farm, baseline profs like cooking and fishing to herp derp around with, etc. A lot of small "meaningless" activities like that can keep a lot of people occupied. Aside from that, the game is what I expected and it can only be improved (unless Bioware majorly messes up). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattgyver Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Its a themepark alright, but not a bad foundation.. they just need to add in more random time sinks to keep people doing stuff. I hate to bring up "that other game" but they had stuff like minipets to farm, baseline profs like cooking and fishing to herp derp around with, etc. A lot of small "meaningless" activities like that can keep a lot of people occupied. Aside from that, the game is what I expected and it can only be improved (unless Bioware majorly messes up). I could live with the improvements you suggest, and I don't think they would hurt anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DalrisThane Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenhurst Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Here is a POLL where you can vote on what you prefer: http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=4f789d84e4b05fc2576661ac Please leave a reply if you voted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattgyver Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Voted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisftw Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Here is a POLL where you can vote on what you prefer: http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=4f789d84e4b05fc2576661ac Please leave a reply if you voted. lol i read the choices you made up. very jaded responses its either option 1 - I'm a fanboy option 2 - i want a sandbox option 3 - i'm a fanboy option 4 - exact same as option 3 where's the unbiased polls? how about option 1 - i prefer theam park option 2 - i like sandbox Edited April 1, 2012 by chrisftw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattgyver Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) lol i read the choices you made up. very jaded responses its either option 1 - I'm a fanboy option 2 - i want a sandbox option 3 - i'm a fanboy option 4 - exact same as option 3 where's the unbiased polls? how about option 1 - i prefer theam park option 2 - i like sandbox So you didn't vote. Polls are just polls, you can't put up an assessment tool to answer this question. We all know how polls work. Option 1 was representative of many of the responses in this thread. Option 2 was a compromise position Option 3 was based on those who have unsubbed and are participating but really don't think this game can change to accommodate them. Option 4 is for SW fanboys, a category which I associate with, but doesn't drive my decisions all that much. hope that helps Edited April 1, 2012 by mattgyver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisftw Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) So you didn't vote. Polls are just polls, you can't put up an assessment tool to answer this question. We all know how polls work. Option 1 was representative of many of the responses in this thread. Option 2 was a compromise position Option 3 was based on those who have unsubbed and are participating but really don't think this game can change to accommodate them. Option 4 is for SW fanboys, a category which I associate with, but doesn't drive my decisions all that much. hope that helps /yawn troll on playa. i wont bother you and your amazing poll which indicates 100% accuracy what the community wants needs. gotta love the bitter spite in the first option though. Edited April 1, 2012 by chrisftw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I’ll agree that there is something wrong with suits, Hollywood and gaming both. Although Independent games and movies have much more quality, and can be successful in their own measured way, being a “nice little success” is no longer acceptable. It’s blockbuster or bust. Heck, if you look at the TV industry, creativity is no longer valued. You aren’t given a chance to grow. It’s “Great ratings right off the gate, or you’re cancelled”. I forget which TV exec said it, but, paraphrased = “We can cancel 100 sitcoms 2-4 episodes in, but if we get just one other ‘Friends’ we come up ahead. That’s why shows have to perform great, or we try another formula. It’s good business.” Apply that to gaming, which is already more niche of an entertainment than TV/Movies, then add the fact that MMO is far more niche within gaming (as opposed to sports game X) and I can’t see innovation being tried. Because, as much as I want to 100% blame the suits, in reality, the suits report to the shareholders, and shareholders don’t give a you know what about the products. Some probably haven’t gamed once (for MMO shareholders, say). It’s all about Return On Investment. It doesn’t matter to them that WoW happened once in the history of gaming… it’s “I want WoW level profits. Make it happen.” When money > quality, you’re going to get formula. is about storytelling, but apply the investor logic to innovative games (it’s past the half way mark ish) and you’ll see why investors want the formula. I’m not trying to be gloom and doom, but, these days, being right loses to being profitable. And being a quality independent game with a tidy profit… sadly… is not considered acceptable. As per movies, it’s… Blockbuster level profit… or bust and try the same formula with a different skin… again… A fella in italy mathmatically prove that within most corporate environments the business would do better promoting randomly than using their current system. This probably has a fair bit to do with it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattgyver Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 /yawn troll on playa. i wont bother you and your amazing poll which indicates 100% accuracy what the community wants needs. gotta love the bitter spite in the first option though. nice use of the "Nuh Uh" startegy. Not going to vote I guess? Any chance you will post your opinion or just want to sit in the gallery and make forum emotes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenhurst Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Well I really wanted to keep the questions objective, and I still think they are - option 1 - we all know that TOR is very close to WoW in it´s concept design, players who are fine with that just pick this option, why not? Nothing to do with "fanboy" or not, WoW was/is highly profitable. option 2 - is a hybrid solution which expands/alters the original WoW concept in another, less linear, less WoW direction option 3 - for everyone who loved SWG and wanted SWTOR to be SWG2 but got disappointed option 4 - for the Star Wars brand fans who just play everything as long as it is called Star Wars I really don´t see what should be wrong with these questions. Edited April 1, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanguardXL Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Here is a POLL where you can vote on what you prefer: http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=4f789d84e4b05fc2576661ac Please leave a reply if you voted. Read your "poll." The options are three choices of "fanboi" and one choice of "SWG was the pinnacle of MMO development." Perhaps that isn't what you intended, but what you wrote came off as snarky and condescending to anyone who disagreed about SWG. SWG died. Rest n peace. BW has made it abundantly clear they have zero intention of adding in sandbox features, or anything that the disenfranchised SWG players have been used to. Not going to happen. No flight sim. No space mining. No space PvP. No sandbox. Which utterly baffles me why in thread after thread the old SWG diehards try to craft this game into SWG 2. There are emulators and servers out there for SWG! You CAN go home again! Yet instead you stay here, obviously miserable because TOR is pointedly NOT SWG, and never will be. Edited April 1, 2012 by VanguardXL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenhurst Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Read your "poll." The options are three choices of "fanboi" and one choice of "SWG was the pinnacle of MMO development." . Perhaps you read a different poll, but this one is about the choices: 1. I like the TOR concept exactly the way it is (WoW style) 2. I want a slightly different concept (something in between of sandbox/themepark) 3. I want a completely different concept (full sandbox, SWG style) 4. I don´t care about the concept as long as it´s Star Wars I hope this was helpful for you to read between the lines. Edited April 1, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattgyver Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Perhaps you read a different poll, but this one is about the choices: 1. I like the TOR concept exactly the way it is (WoW style) 2. I want a slightly different concept (something in between of sandbox/themepark) 3. I want a completely different concept (full sandbox, SWG style) 4. I don´t care about the concept as long as it´s Star Wars I hope this was helpful for you to read between the lines. Pretty ridiculous. The interpretation of the intent of the choices on the poll makes me think that posters just dont want to see a poll that doesn't go their way, so they trash the poll. It's a freaking forum poll, it's not scientific, it's not an accurate measure because the sample is so tiny. Gimme a break Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rzacron Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I picked 2, although I have considered 3 at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erstok Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 ToR will never be SWG. Deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt_Latency Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 It's fine as theme park. I just needs more rides fast. Once you finish your story it's just another game with less content. I enjoy this game and more rides or even just more maps would help alot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyreal Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 SwTor is basically a single player game masking as an MMO. This game lacks any type of true social aspect that would bind a community together. There are no reasons to form hunting parties or just gather at the local cantina and shoot the bull. That is a major reason why this game will not hold a lot of people. MMO's need options to come together to accomplish things. Sure, you can go into FP but they don't last long and the repetitiveness quickly bores you to tears. Ops are far too easy to hold any guild's attention for very long either. People want to do different things, not the same ole crap over and over again. Variety is an undervalued commodity these days and game producers have completely forgotten it due to the success of a certain game that we will not utter the name of. In the end, the game has its good parts (story) and its terrible parts (end game content and lack of social aspects) so its truly up to the person's playstyle and preferences. For me, my account is now cancelled, bored to death with the repetitiveness and after playing aforementioned game for years, the similarities here to that are too much for me to bear again. GL with the game, enjoy what you enjoy to play but I truly hope that the devs incorporate some sandbox type activities that can be used to enhance the players experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenhurst Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 SwTor is basically a single player game masking as an MMO. This game lacks any type of true social aspect that would bind a community together. There are no reasons to form hunting parties or just gather at the local cantina and shoot the bull. That is a major reason why this game will not hold a lot of people. MMO's need options to come together to accomplish things. Sure, you can go into FP but they don't last long and the repetitiveness quickly bores you to tears. Ops are far too easy to hold any guild's attention for very long either. People want to do different things, not the same ole crap over and over again. Variety is an undervalued commodity these days and game producers have completely forgotten it due to the success of a certain game that we will not utter the name of. In the end, the game has its good parts (story) and its terrible parts (end game content and lack of social aspects) so its truly up to the person's playstyle and preferences. For me, my account is now cancelled, bored to death with the repetitiveness and after playing aforementioned game for years, the similarities here to that are too much for me to bear again. GL with the game, enjoy what you enjoy to play but I truly hope that the devs incorporate some sandbox type activities that can be used to enhance the players experience. quite true, agree on your post. It is always funny how many people here see the blatant game design errors and gaps of the concept, although Bioware does not realize how far off this game is from the expectations of the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teenki Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Originally Posted by Darth_Gao_Gao how can you say it has "too much" themepark when the entire game is a themepark? that's like saying a glass of water is "too full" when the glass is completely full of water. ...... Originally Posted by halueryphi Im not even going to dignify the stupidity with a response. LOL. Holy crap the irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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