All this 1.2 QQin about NERFs...Wat about Ops/Scoundrel?

[Vaipyr]

There is no more definative sign that you are going to lose a random warzone than having more than 1 dps operative in your group. This myth of the well played operative is almost as big a fallacy as the wall of marauders stomping everyone 6-0 in hutball and confining entire teams of sorcerers to their spawn area.....

 

Everything an operative does to enjoy a warzone is counterproductive to winning it. Typically they stealth around on the fringes bursting down people who get knocked off the railings on low health (Its almost always advantages to leave people trying to get away on low health alone inevitably they will try and hide in a corner waiting to get out of combat so they can heal and the game will pass them by, operatives send them to the spawn room where they come back and kill your ball carrier just before the line).

 

I don't blame them for this they don't have the defensive cds to try and burst down a full health ball carrier and furthermore much like the tracer missile their shotgun blasts are like a red flag to a bull for every surrounding dps who immediately turns on them so attacking the ball carrier in the midst of a zerg is out of the question.

 

I would most certainly never include a dps operative in any premade team I put together.

 

Indeed. The scoundrels (and ops for our Imp sister group) in our team were told to reroll or be replaced. Both of them rerolled to classes that are actually useful.

[QuiJonPed]

2) Ability to stunlock a target down for a massive duration.

 

Where does this ******** keep coming from? What masive duration? A few seconds via Hidden Strike KD plus Debilitate or Debilitate and then FB?

[-Rinzler-]

sorrry, you people saying ops are fine are delusional. I have a valor 67 ops and a 65 powertech.

 

In huttball I am infinite more valueable. There is not one single thing my ops can do better.

 

"oh you can stun lock someone and kill them"

 

Guess what? that's gonna take all my cooldowns and relics/stims.

 

On my powertech....1 button. pull into fire, boom instant kill.

 

Yea I can score 400k+dmg games on my op. But I can also score 300k games on my tank specced powertech. Andthat doesn't including the 200k worth of instant deaths from grapple pulls.

 

and I guard ball carrier

and I can jump back to ball carrier the intant get knocked off platforms

I can make game changing saves with my grapple, defensively and offensivly

I can interrupt the crap out of healers every 6 seconds

I can critical for 3.5k all day tank specced

[Ssfbistimg]

buahah current operatives can still 100-0 people...

 

Only Pedia (a Scoundrel on Juyo) has ever been able to do that to me, since the Biochem/Buff stacking nerf.

[Nyaara]

Myth of well played operative ?

 

There are couple that come out of stealth and knock me down, i can stay there and be quite much dead, or i can use my trinket and be stunned right away and get dead.

 

Having 50% BM and 50% champ gear still doesn't leave me much options.

 

yep, is the other side. And you know is not fun. I know too. Is not fun getting destroyed by a guy getting zero chances. No matter how many expertise you got, you re killed. Taking down a player from 100 to 0% due high burst and being CC´ed all the time is not i call a balanced game. Every nerf is welcome.

 

Less burst and more steady dps/survivality?. Maybe but even with the nerf, the burst is still insane.

[Ich_Bin]

Myth of well played operative ?

 

There are couple that come out of stealth and knock me down, i can stay there and be quite much dead, or i can use my trinket and be stunned right away and get dead.

 

Having 50% BM and 50% champ gear still doesn't leave me much options.

 

Maybe it's just my class, gunslinger, but honestly i think operatives and scoundrels need some kind of nerf. In my perspective there is nothing i can do to counter a good one, can't even get ready for that when they come in stealth.

 

If you use your stunbreak on the opener it is a L2P issue.

 

The OP is right. Operatives provide average damage (tank Sins can do more) with 0 utility. They are decent 1v1 but they suck big time in organized PvP.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Bizatch]

Reading all this non sense about ops being useful, just wondering which of these 2 scenarios are worse.

 

A> Op uses all of his CDs, relic, stim, vanish for double hidden strike etc and kills you without you doing anything, because you werent prepared and had no trinket to break it

 

or

 

B> Someone uses 1 CD, not an important one, at any point they feel like, if you have the ball etc, to pull you into the fire, and guess what, stun lock you to death WITHOUT blowing all there important CDs

 

Go figure......

[Ich_Bin]

Reading all this non sense about ops being useful, just wondering which of these 2 scenarios are worse.

 

A> Op uses all of his CDs, relic, stim, vanish for double hidden strike etc and kills you without you doing anything, because you werent prepared and had no trinket to break it

 

or

 

B> Someone uses 1 CD, not an important one, at any point they feel like, if you have the ball etc, to pull you into the fire, and guess what, stun lock you to death WITHOUT blowing all there important CDs

 

Go figure......

 

Exactly.

Or they knock you off the ramps / off the bridge / into the fire and have essentially one-shotted you. Which Operative's can't do either.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Orangerascal]

I'll be playing in an 8men with my scoundrel.

 

If your team does not know how to use them and uses them as a striker in huttball, then it's their own fault.

 

If you think they're weak and don't use them, then be very surprised when you're 2 noded every time you start alderaan (and novare coast)

 

If you're not the mvp in voidstar, you're definitely doing something wrong, especially when you chain open doors because your snare is snaring them while your capping the opposite door.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Orangerascal

[MightyHalo]

If they take away vanish I could see a place for shadowstep. Otherwise it would be a stupid addition.

[Wren_Atticus]

Scoundrels could use some more utility, but as a PvP Hybrid, I do just fine in all WZ's, including Huttball.

 

Could I do better as a sage? Probably, but I prefer the Scoundrel playstyle.

 

So why do I get invites as a scoundrel to premades? Because I am being invited, not the class I play. I may not have knockbacks and pulls in Hutball, but I pass well, I know how to minimize knock backs, get across fire pits, get open for passes, keep the ball carrier healed, can time CCs to grab the ball at Mid and many other little things that help win a game.

 

I believe that most premades look for skilled players, not specific classes. All things being equal, yes, the Sage is a better pick in most cases. But IMO, the gap is not so wide as to pass over a good Scoundrel for an above average Sage.

 

Also, as a Scoundrel healer hybrid, there are very few players that I fear one on one. I may not be able to kill them, but I won't die either. One of the players I fear is an Op. I am not just running around stalling her like most Marauders I deal with, I am running for my freaking life.

 

This is why hybrid spec is not viable. If you can't kill, you might as well go full Sawbones.

 

I'm a DPS scrapper. I have no desire to heal, off or otherwise. I don't take any talents out of Sawbones except for the cunning increase.

 

I shouldn't have to pick up healing talents to be considered worthwhile in PvP. My DPS and utility should make me of worth as well.

[goz_-]

1) Better armor than a shadow specced as infiltration.

2) Ability to stunlock a target down for a massive duration.

3) Burst = better than a shadow.

4) Trinket CD is the same.

5) The burst is high enough to dominate any target you want in group combat.

 

Sir, please leave the room because your stupidity hurts my brain.

[-Esper-]

I think that with all the nerf system, degrading the use of scoundrel in the battle, to align its effectiveness, it is necessary to increase the speed of movement, even though.

[Ganksterz]

Best thread so far I love seeing all the replies. Alright my turn, I also play a valor level 83 concealment operative. I have pulled every accuracy enhancement and replaced with the champ enforcer glove enhancements. I have also ripped out all the BM mods and replaced with BM enforcer helm mods to stack the extra power.

 

I currently look something like this self buffed with stim.

7800-9400

503 expertise

34% crit

76.01 surge.

 

With all that said so many of these posts have been spot on. Yes I can easily kill a sorc/sage in one stunlock via the double HS. This isn't practical but nevertheless can be done. Weebs said it best in his post about the utility factor but left a few things out that I would like to preach on.

 

Defense.....Operatives are freaking beasts. Huttball chain CC for fire or simply HS, BS, CS, into another HS this will normally kill the ball carrier especially if he is getting wailed on by your team. Civil war/ Voidstar these are my personal favorites, stealth classes own these WZ's and yes better than assassins. 90% of your groups will leave 1 person guarding a turret or door. When you see this you should automatically smile. They can't call for help if they don't see you. Stealth in, blow them up, and cap/plant GG.

 

Sure operatives are getting the nerf hammer AGAIN I am also aggravated by this but what can ya do? Whining on here isn't going to help not like the devs read this anyway.

[Giladd]

real classes are getting nerfed

 

Best quote ever, especially since it's coming from a sorc. Tracer spammer may have made it even funnier if one of them made that comment.

[Ahhmyface]

Utility doesn't exist, but the damage is very high. Play a day as a mara getting your dots cleansed, and you will actually see how good Ops damage is. It's been the same thing since day 1, no matter how easy classes are in this game, the best player will dominate on any class. Wreck face on my op in live, and will do the same after the patch, while awaiting a buff. Because yes, our utility is so nonexistant that a buff is warranted; damage is not the problem at all.

 

Editing;

 

Saying the lack of utility makes Ops undesirable is totally false. Ops burst damage alone is enough to be a key part of any group. Ops are as good as anyone in non-huttball wz's, but still is a great mid-controller. Sages&Sorcs speccing shield mez will be nearly nonexistant with the hybrid nerf, so you can pick them off easily while they try to disrupt mid. Bad ops are more worthless than any other class with a bad player attached, but good ops are very useful, and simply won't be nerfed again, as nerf tears for them are completely nonexistant now.

 

Reeno for OPs teamlead

[hulkweazel]

There is no more definative sign that you are going to lose a random warzone than having more than 1 dps operative in your group. This myth of the well played operative is almost as big a fallacy as the wall of marauders stomping everyone 6-0 in hutball and confining entire teams of sorcerers to their spawn area.....

 

Everything an operative does to enjoy a warzone is counterproductive to winning it. Typically they stealth around on the fringes bursting down people who get knocked off the railings on low health (Its almost always advantages to leave people trying to get away on low health alone inevitably they will try and hide in a corner waiting to get out of combat so they can heal and the game will pass them by, operatives send them to the spawn room where they come back and kill your ball carrier just before the line).

 

I don't blame them for this they don't have the defensive cds to try and burst down a full health ball carrier and furthermore much like the tracer missile their shotgun blasts are like a red flag to a bull for every surrounding dps who immediately turns on them so attacking the ball carrier in the midst of a zerg is out of the question.

 

I would most certainly never include a dps operative in any premade team I put together.

This is what bad Concealment Operatives do. They do it because it's the easiest way to get kills. Good ones will play more defensively, hanging around the catwalks and middle and try to control it. Still not amazing, but not completely detrimental to the team.

 

That said, Ops being "amazing" defensive players is another myth. Yes, we can burst down the ball carrier. Yes, we can stun someone in the fire. But so can other classes, much more effectively too since we don't have a gap closer and we have no knockback abilities (Which is one of the easiest ways to defend). Nearly every class can stun someone over the fire, not much advantage there.

[Ganksterz]

Yeah it's true we lack any sort of pull, gap closer you name it, but do knock backs effect you that much? Maybe it's the 100's upon 100's of matches played but you can re-position yourself to advoid this. Sure they will push you off every once in awhile but just try it. Next time open on a sorc and as soon as debilitate is wearing off position yourself and jump when they go to knock you back. It works wonders :-p Edited March 26, 2012 by Ganksterz

[Izola]

All I am saying is OUTSIDE of flashbang the Op/Scoundrel class has ZERO utility outside of 4m. In Huttball this is a HUGE handicap. (1/3 of the current WZs)

 

No gap closer as a almost strickly melee class

 

And (as compared to other classes) ALMOST ZERO Utility

 

Yes we all get it, they can burst you down with the best of them...But I would bet any TOP LEVEL PLAYERS would take a lil nerf to the DPS out put for some kind of gap closer/utility ability.

 

Shadow Infil is a burst class...Although not as much as a scoundrel it's DPS in short 10 sec windows is about 90% of a scoundrels.

 

Shadow utility = Sprint, Knockback, 30m Stunlock, 1.5 Min trinket, 15m slow, 15m int & LOL 30m Force lift!

 

Scoundrel utility = Flashbang

 

Um...REALLY!

 

And Please don't say off heals is utility or I will just have to bring up the fact that AT ANY TIME I can AOE taunt 30% reduce dam AT ZERO Force/Energy cost Focus taunt 30% reduce dam AT ZERO Force/Energy cost AND O YA stance dance and throw a gaurd on BC and reduce his dam by 50% in about 2 secs. A full .5 sec faster then your 2K Castable heal...lol

 

Give Ops/Scoundrels SHADOW STEP!

Edited March 26, 2012 by Izola

[hulkweazel]

Yeah it's true we lack any sort of pull, gap closer you name it, but do knock backs effect you that much? Maybe it's the 100's upon 100's of matches played but you can re-position yourself to advoid this. Sure they will push you off every once in awhile but just try it. Next time open on a sorc and as soon as debilitate is wearing off position yourself and jump when they go to knock you back. It works wonders :-p

I can position myself to not really get hurt from Sorc or Sniper knockbacks, but have you SEEN the Merc knockback? Seems to knock me back half the room. There is NO way to position yourself to not get owned by that. Also, good Sorcs will use their knockback when you're least suspecting it, not giving you time to reposition yourself properly.

 

In any case, knockbacks don't bother me that much, Op's lack of utility does though.

[Ganksterz]

You guys are going about this wrong. So your right operatives are at a huge disadvantage in Huttball point taken and noted. What about the other two WZs where as an operative you can literally swing the game in your favor all by yourself. Assassins have stealth and all this awesome utility so what if they can't kill the target before they scream for help.

 

So ok I'll give ya Huttball is that all you want?

[Izola]

You guys are going about this wrong. So your right operatives are at a huge disadvantage in Huttball point taken and noted. What about the other two WZs where as an operative you can literally swing the game in your favor all by yourself. Assassins have stealth and all this awesome utility so what if they can't kill the target before they scream for help.

 

So ok I'll give ya Huttball is that all you want?

 

Huttball is 1/3 of the WZs ATM....

 

Shadow Infil is a burst class...Although not as much as a scoundrel it's DPS in short 10 sec windows is about 90% of a scoundrels.

 

Shadow utility = Sprint, Knockback, 30m Stunlock, 1.5 Min trinket, 15m slow, 15m int & LOL 30m Force lift!

 

Scoundrel utility = Flashbang

 

Um...REALLY!

[Ozzone]

You guys are going about this wrong. So your right operatives are at a huge disadvantage in Huttball point taken and noted. What about the other two WZs where as an operative you can literally swing the game in your favor all by yourself. Assassins have stealth and all this awesome utility so what if they can't kill the target before they scream for help.

 

So ok I'll give ya Huttball is that all you want?

 

The elephant in the room here is that we have no choice on what warzone to queue. Ranked teams are going to be reluctant putting in an ops because of the strong chance of huttball being the warzone. That's the problem. If huttball wasn't a concern, then ops would be on the list (for the other 3 warzones). This is even more prevalent with guilds that have enough players to pick from for their ranked team(s).

 

The point is that a good ops doesn't suck and does offer a good contribution to the team except in huttball vs. other classes that were almost tailor-made for huttball.

 

Now if BW changes their mind and offers selective queuing that might change but as it stands right now, there's no mention of that coming in 1.2

[Ich_Bin]

Assassins have stealth and all this awesome utility so what if they can't kill the target before they scream for help.

 

Why wouldn't they be able to do that? Deception Assassin's have better burst than Operatives on top of all the other useful tools that they have and Operative's don't.

It is nothing but a myth that Operatives have great burst damage. Yes, burst is their only strenght but other classes (DPS Vanguard, DPS Assassin, Sniper, DPS Merc) have better burst.

The only thing is that you don't see DPS Assassins too often because tank Assassins are even stronger. So when people say that Operatives have "better burst" than Assassins they are usually comparing DPS Operatives to Tank Assassins.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Ganksterz]

Man I still don't see it, even with assassins and the utility you can counter it all. If you open on a sin which is quite easy since stealth really is quite broken in this game you should win every time. What do most sins do when they start to lose? Stun and force speed away right? Save CC breaker and have server tendon on keybind. Yeah it is 10 meters but we are a melee class right you should be that close anyway. They do have a nice 3 second immune they like to pop near death......rifle shot/overload shot goes right through it.

 

It's about knowing your class and knowing your opponents class. If you feel like you need all this extra utility to be on par with an assassin then your playing your class wrong. If you want to really complain about a class then complain about Juggs/Maras because a 7k smash on 700 expertise is ok, not to mention undying rage.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ganksterz