Please stop making PVP main though in balance

[Jandi]

PvP is the only place where balance matter in any real way. You can easily complete any PvE content with any mix of classes so there is no problem in the PvE side at all. The only thing to change is stop implementing melee AoE abilities, those are the ONLY reason people prefer ranged, nothing to do with class balance.

 

Oh and before the personal insults start hurling at me, my highest valour rank is 4, that's how much I PvP. I speak from the perspective of the elusive "common sense".

[kaboro]

*sigh* When will the kids stop saying nonsense like "Aspect X is only a side note (and I think that's not exactly a correct term) of this game, developers should focus more on Aspect Y".

Like it or not, EVERYTHING is there as a main course. YOU may not like Aspect X, but plenty of others do! For EVERY aspect of this game, and the same goes for any other AAA MMO, there are MORE people who are desinterrested than there are people who are interrested.

 

You like OPS? Sorry, but there are more people interrested in doing solo content, flashpoints, PvP, Space Combat and rerolling.

You like solo content? Sorry, but there are more people interrested in doing flashpoints, PvP, Space Combat, rerolling and OPS.

You like flashpoints? Sorry, but there are more people interrested in doing PvP, Space Combat, rerolling, OPS and solo content.

You like PvP? Sorry, but there are more people interrested in doing Space Combat, rerolling, OPS, solo content and flashpoints.

You like Space Combat? Sorry, but there are more people interrested in doing rerolling, OPS, solo content, flashpoints and PvP.

You like rerolling? Sorry, but there are more people interrested in doing Space OPS, solo content, flashpoints, PvP and Space Combat.

 

What you're demanding is basically one of the things that made WoW such a lousy game since halfway TBC:

ALL developer resources being put into one or two aspects of the game, which the majority of players actually doesn't even CARE about.

ALL aspects of the game being funneled into content that the majority of players isn't interrested in.

 

Too maintain an AAA MMO means offering a variety of aspects to the game, and to support ALL these aspects. Each time a developer relegates any one of those aspects to a sidetrack, the MMO basically looses one of those A's.

 

Sure, the minority raiding community needs its support, ballancing and updates, but so do all the other minorities.

 

Very good points and excellent post but there is one problem: pvp and pve are mutually exclusive. You cannot balance a game for both pvp and pve so when they adjust classes for pvp, that will affect the pve players in a bad way.

[Thornes]

Well then I guess they need 3 types of servers?

 

1. Open world PVP from start to finish - dedicated DEV group

2. Hybrid world PVP/PVE like the PVP servers are now.

3. PVE world where the customers get to 50 and move along, or wait for expansions.

 

You just cannot please everyone all the time, it is the general rule. I love PVP, I love PVE, but a Hybrid environment is only to bring the role-players and genre lovers into the mix.

 

Just my Opinion.

[MightyHalo]

 

Almost every guy I know who is a hardcore carebear now is someone who got beat up bad in PVP and won't go back, and almost always that is a result of split gear trees.

 

it's more about them not knowing how to PVP tbh. They won't put the time in. For static encounters they are fine. It's just a different playstyle combating humans.

[Samborino]

no its not ur bad pvp is bigger than than pve now sorry

 

Classic pvp player reply. Ur bad. All its missing is L2P

 

Why would the op care about being bad in PVP if he doesnt even seem to play it. And if he did play it you have no idea how skilled or unskilled he is.

 

As for the topic at hand, its just not going to happen they arent going to leave PVP imbalanced for the sake of PVE or vice versa they have to find a middlepoint and so far i think they have been doing a decent job. Im honestly glad about the nerfs, it will make the encounters in PVE more challenging and a class like the sage was outperforming other healing classes to an extent, its a much smarter move to nerf classes then it is to start buffing all the classes and then have to rebalance encounters around that.

 

I play both PVP and PVE i like them for different reasons, i was however surprised at how popular PVP was in this game. I expected that a bioware mmo that is based around story to attract a much bigger PVE crowd , although i do understand that part of the appeal of starwars is empire vs republic and i can see alot of people being drawn to that. I think part of it must have to do with how accesible PVP is compared to PVE though (especially for casual players which make up a majority of this game most likely) you can queue and get in a warzone with eaze, finding a group for a raid or a flashpoint is a different matter though.

[AsheraII]

Very good points and excellent post but there is one problem: pvp and pve are mutually exclusive. You cannot balance a game for both pvp and pve so when they adjust classes for pvp, that will affect the pve players in a bad way.

They're as mutually exclusive as sanbox vs themepark would be mutually exclusive: they are not. They can blend perfectly well, but the developer has to be careful when making adjustments. So far, I think Bioware is doing the surgical strikes pretty well, opposed to Actiblizzions "blunt axe approach".

[MightyHalo]

I want to be on record that I loved leveling in this game. I thoroughly enjoyed my class quests and many of teh side and especially bonus quest lines.

 

With that said, I also hit wz's as I leveled, and still do dailies, with 2 50's, but I have yet to run a group flashpoint or OP.

 

I did do the matrix cube on empire fleet.

 

That was a lot of fun too.

[Samborino]

*sigh* When will the kids stop saying nonsense like "Aspect X is only a side note (and I think that's not exactly a correct term) of this game, developers should focus more on Aspect Y".

Like it or not, EVERYTHING is there as a main course. YOU may not like Aspect X, but plenty of others do! For EVERY aspect of this game, and the same goes for any other AAA MMO, there are MORE people who are desinterrested than there are people who are interrested.

 

You like OPS? Sorry, but there are more people interrested in doing solo content, flashpoints, PvP, Space Combat and rerolling.

You like solo content? Sorry, but there are more people interrested in doing flashpoints, PvP, Space Combat, rerolling and OPS.

You like flashpoints? Sorry, but there are more people interrested in doing PvP, Space Combat, rerolling, OPS and solo content.

You like PvP? Sorry, but there are more people interrested in doing Space Combat, rerolling, OPS, solo content and flashpoints.

You like Space Combat? Sorry, but there are more people interrested in doing rerolling, OPS, solo content, flashpoints and PvP.

You like rerolling? Sorry, but there are more people interrested in doing Space OPS, solo content, flashpoints, PvP and Space Combat.

 

What you're demanding is basically one of the things that made WoW such a lousy game since halfway TBC:

ALL developer resources being put into one or two aspects of the game, which the majority of players actually doesn't even CARE about.

ALL aspects of the game being funneled into content that the majority of players isn't interrested in.

 

Too maintain an AAA MMO means offering a variety of aspects to the game, and to support ALL these aspects. Each time a developer relegates any one of those aspects to a sidetrack, the MMO basically looses one of those A's.

 

Sure, the minority raiding community needs its support, ballancing and updates, but so do all the other minorities.

 

Bioware basically came out and said that PVP received a drastically popular response far far more then they thought it would. And since a larger part of the community participates they are allocating more resources to it and developing more content for it. They didnt say word for word that it was a side note, but had they known it would be this popular they probably would have devoted more resources to it in the first place

 

Also its a bioware game, Story driven single player RPG's have been their forte for a very long time (aka PVE content) that is why people say that PVP is/should be a sidenote. Obviously though since the game was released and they saw a huge response to PVP they are bringing the content to the forefront and supporting it more than they orignally intended. Im sure regardless their would have been a steady stream of PVP content but now we will see even more. Also i think if raiding / flashpoints where as easily accesible as warzones the percentages would be much more even or possibly in favor of PVE, the average casual/ new to mmo player / instant gratification ADD kid isnt going to sit and type LFG for 20 minutes to find a group they are going do something that is fun to them but also easily accesible.

[Gnugthreeonefive]

"PvP is huge, 60% of players PvP daily"

 

Hahaha sure... thats why there are more PvE servers than PvP servers right?

 

FYI, PvP servers are for those that enjoy ganking.

 

I'm on an RP server and do nothing but PvP; the pvp action is huge here. And no, I don't RP at all, but I find RP servers to be more mature than the rest, which is nice for us adults.

[Samborino]

FYI, PvP servers are for those that enjoy ganking.

 

I'm on an RP server and do nothing but PvP; the pvp action is huge here. And no, I don't RP at all, but I find RP servers to be more mature than the rest, which is nice for us adults.

 

Agreed im not much of a PVP'er but i always roll on PVP servers because i like the realism involved with being able to attack the opposing faction when you run into them. I wish their was a PVE-PVP server lol, for PVE players who want to beable to attack the opposing faction in open world. It always seemed silly to me on PVE servers seeing 2 different factions farming mobs in harmony beside each other, not attacking each other or anything, they may as well be on the same faction.... ><

[Xyleya]

PvP is the only place where balance matter in any real way. You can easily complete any PvE content with any mix of classes so there is no problem in the PvE side at all. The only thing to change is stop implementing melee AoE abilities, those are the ONLY reason people prefer ranged, nothing to do with class balance.

 

Oh and before the personal insults start hurling at me, my highest valour rank is 4, that's how much I PvP. I speak from the perspective of the elusive "common sense".

 

You didn't do any of the hardmode/nightmare Operations, did you?

 

With the nerf incoming for healers you'll have a hard time to do them... just saying. The sorcs will run low on might (and yes this was actually somewhat needed) and the mercs will have big heat-issues. Mercs are not welcome in operations the way they're now allready, with even bigger heat-issues they can respec as a DD right away with 1.2.

2 sorcs with their AoE-heals is what you want i an operation anyways, and making the Kolto Missile affect 4 targets now doesn't compensate the lessened Kolto Residue and it sure doesn't help to make the Kolto Shell cost 16 heat, etc etc...

 

PvE-endcontent should be tricky and hard ofc, but making classes unviable in PvE-endcontent sure isn't the way to go just because the PvP-babies are crying that they can't kill a Merc etc.

 

If you can't kill a Merc-healer in PvP btw, then you're not very good at what you're doing.

[Hotbox]

it's more about them not knowing how to PVP tbh. They won't put the time in. For static encounters they are fine. It's just a different playstyle combating humans.

 

Yah but how are they bad players is my point-- and why aren't they putting in the effort, that's the more important question.

 

It's almsot always the same scenario-- they load into a BG with XYZ uber gear from raiding and get mauled by some guy in gear with eleventy billion expertise points or other PVP based stat.

 

As a result they say PVP sucks and never want to set foot in there again and actually learn the subtle skill set needed to compete at high levels.

 

Or worse, they load in and have trouble keeping up their DPS or die a lot and their own teeamates give them grief about learning to PVP thus making them feel like crap about it.

 

You see the same thing in raiding and PVE in reverse-- a PVP guy loads into a PUG raid and dies a lot or can't keep up DPS and his teammates savage him or punt the guy thus never picking up raiding skill sets.

 

...and ALL of it, is a direct result of split gear trees. Had both player been equipped similarly, the disparity would not have been as great and players would have a better time of it to stick around and learn the PVE/PVP aspect of the game.

[Samborino]

PvP is the only place where balance matter in any real way. You can easily complete any PvE content with any mix of classes so there is no problem in the PvE side at all. The only thing to change is stop implementing melee AoE abilities, those are the ONLY reason people prefer ranged, nothing to do with class balance.

 

Oh and before the personal insults start hurling at me, my highest valour rank is 4, that's how much I PvP. I speak from the perspective of the elusive "common sense".

 

I dont think balance matters as much between classes for PVE, but it matters how they work against the E (environment) and it matters how they compare to other classes damage healing or tanking wise. Their can still be problems when say ranged classes outperform Melee classes and suddenly raids refuse to take melee classes (as the raid content gets harder something like this example will become more prevalent) or refuse to take certain healing classes.

 

Also with a way to guage damage now with the combat log and parsers , the huge amount of testing of rotations , specs etc. will show which classes are truly the best at their role and other classes may possibly need to be rebalanced around that. Precise balance may not be as important between classes but general balance still is in PVE . Optimal PVE balance should mean that no one dedicated dps class should beable to out dps another with the only factor involved being gear , skill, rotation etc. Obviously though a class with maybe more utility or a class that can change roles may sacrifice dps for versatility etc but it should not be so much that if they choose to go dps their lack of it outweighs the extra utility ETC. Alot of these things also apply to PVP they are very similair with the only main and fairly significant (and more complex) difference being how these classes interact and perform against one another.

[Tic-]

This game is intended to be PvE mainly as pvp as a side note, just as space combat is a side note.

I feel like the devs are making decisions in regards to balancing pvp efforts and not really taking into account pve. Do people agree or disagree, please explain your reasonings.

 

At the :47 second mark, this guy seems to think differently...

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/coming-star-wars-old-republic?sourceid=eag3420

 

 

/shrug

Edited March 25, 2012 by Tic-

[Samborino]

You didn't do any of the hardmode/nightmare Operations, did you?

 

With the nerf incoming for healers you'll have a hard time to do them... just saying. The sorcs will run low on might (and yes this was actually somewhat needed) and the mercs will have big heat-issues. Mercs are not welcome in operations the way they're now allready, with even bigger heat-issues they can respec as a DD right away with 1.2.

2 sorcs with their AoE-heals is what you want i an operation anyways, and making the Kolto Missile affect 4 targets now doesn't compensate the lessened Kolto Residue and it sure doesn't help to make the Kolto Shell cost 16 heat, etc etc...

 

PvE-endcontent should be tricky and hard ofc, but making classes unviable in PvE-endcontent sure isn't the way to go just because the PvP-babies are crying that they can't kill a Merc etc.

 

If you can't kill a Merc-healer in PvP btw, then you're not very good at what you're doing.

 

BW says they test to make sure that any variation of healers etc. will be viable in the raiding environment. But i agree with you if one is still significantly better why make it harder on yourself right? Especially with how challenging the new content is going to be (no one on the PTS has even beat the first boss on hard mode yet, and only 1 group has done full clear on story mode, and these are mostly guilds with most or full rakata) I think bioware intended it so that you will have to farm nightmare KP for Blackhole comms to get a few pieces possibly before you head into the new operation.

 

I also think we wont know the true leaders of DPS, healers, tanks class wise until we see detailed parsers come out and people start comparing. We know that Sage/sorc are currently the best healers with Merc/commando also being very good (especially single target) but with the new patch its a whole new ball game and im betting the combat log parsers will show some very interesting results for healers and DPS after people get their specs , rotations and optimal stats for their class down.

[TwwIX]

As opposed to PvE?

 

Since we're now generalizing....

 

What exactly do i as a PvE player have to compete for?

[Tic-]

What exactly do i as a PvE player have to compete for?

 

First place at the bank stand-off, showing your new shinnies... its your measuring stick, thought you'd realize...

 

You began generalizing, so i did as well....

Edited March 25, 2012 by Tic-

[TwwIX]

First place at the bank stand-off, showing your new shinnies... its your measuring stick, thought you'd realize...

 

You began generalizing, so i did as well....

 

Oh, yah! I almost forgot to mention the lovely trash talk that accompanies a PvP match.

It wouldn't be a PvP match without a good ol inflammatory and derogatory filled chat session.

It's the MMO equivalent of a Call of Duty match on Xbox Live. Luckily, your ear drums will be spared the abuse in this case.

[Synphony]

Im an all rounder, ill pvp, pve and rp and I'll put this in the most simple way I can.

 

This game is a Star WARS game. WARS!! read that again and again WARS!!! How can there be a WAR in the stars if you arn't fighting each other?

This game NEEDS PvP without it then we would be playing "Star get teh epic lewts".

[iloveicarly]

Im an all rounder, ill pvp, pve and rp and I'll put this in the most simple way I can.

 

This game is a Star WARS game. WARS!! read that again and again WARS!!! How can there be a WAR in the stars if you arn't fighting each other?

This game NEEDS PvP without it then we would be playing "Star get teh epic lewts".

 

this made me lol

[Redat]

It puzzles me WHY the devs are making changes to classes based on the whinings of the PvP crowd, my wife plays Sorc but PvE only, any changes based on PvP data/observations will sureley have an adverse impact on PvE??

[DawnAskham]

Bioware basically came out and said that PVP received a drastically popular response far far more then they thought it would. And since a larger part of the community participates they are allocating more resources to it and developing more content for it. They didnt say word for word that it was a side note, but had they known it would be this popular they probably would have devoted more resources to it in the first place

 

Also its a bioware game, Story driven single player RPG's have been their forte for a very long time (aka PVE content) that is why people say that PVP is/should be a sidenote. Obviously though since the game was released and they saw a huge response to PVP they are bringing the content to the forefront and supporting it more than they orignally intended. Im sure regardless their would have been a steady stream of PVP content but now we will see even more. Also i think if raiding / flashpoints where as easily accesible as warzones the percentages would be much more even or possibly in favor of PVE, the average casual/ new to mmo player / instant gratification ADD kid isnt going to sit and type LFG for 20 minutes to find a group they are going do something that is fun to them but also easily accesible.

 

If my in-game play experiences are driving the statistics Bioware is using to state more people participate in PVP than PVE, and thus conclude more people enjoy PVP than PVE, they need to be very careful.

 

I like both aspects and enjoy varying my playstyle, but unfortunately this game forces me to PVP more than PVE.

 

Leveling an alt, tired of questing, can hit the WZ button and get a match in just a couple of minutes while still questing, or can go back to Fleet and spam for an hour hoping to find a group to run a flashpoint.

 

Hit 50 on a new character and want to get some gear, can hit the WZ button and get a match in minutes while running dailies for commendations and credits, or stand around Fleet and spam for an hour hoping to find a group to run a flashpoint.

 

Log on a non-raid night and want to do something, anything, can hit the WZ button and get a match in minutes while farming up some mats to make some gear for the alt, or can stand around Fleet and spam for an hour hoping to find a group to run a flashpoint.

 

Seriously, only a politician would try to use current game play statistics to determine which aspect players actually enjoy the most.

 

As I said, I do enjoy PVP but I also enjoy PVE. They should balance PVP but they should work a bit smarter to ensure that changes to keep PVP balanced don't adversely affect PVE play. But more importantly for me, they need to make PVE content as accessible as PVP.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't even seen anything stating they are willing to make PVE content as accessible as PVP.

Edited March 25, 2012 by DawnAskham

[iloveicarly]

This game is intended to be PvE mainly as pvp as a side note, just as space combat is a side note.

 

I feel like the devs are making decisions in regards to balancing pvp efforts and not really taking into account pve. Do people agree or disagree, please explain your reasonings.

 

pvp is more fun and it has skill involved pve is just CC that and it is easy pvp takes teamwork,skill,and tactics.It is most fun!

[Vlaxitov]

PvP is what's left at end game. It's a sad reality of MMOs, but they can't generate content fast enough. A new flashpoint or operation is completed in a few days. Then you need something new to do, PvP is that thing.

 

Its not a sad reality of MMOs. Its a sad reality of this MMO. Its not that they can't generate content fast enough, its that they haven't generated content that is meaningful enough. You say you need to do something, I don't need to play MMOs when they aren't fun.

[Itukaaj]

It puzzles me WHY the devs are making changes to classes based on the whinings of the PvP crowd, my wife plays Sorc but PvE only, any changes based on PvP data/observations will sureley have an adverse impact on PvE??

 

 

That's a false assumption Sorc healer changes were made because people were double dipping resurgence with an extra shortened cast which in the eyes of the devs was a unintended . Now, maybe PVPers discovered it but Zoeller said the change was meant fr PVE. I don't have the quote handy but look at his post yourself.