When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow?

[Astarica]

Those screenshot people keep posting aren't pre-made vs pre-made, though. They're pre-made vs randoms. A couple of those pugs did pretty well, but a good pre-made should be able to deal with healers better than a pug will.

 

Even so, I wouldn't be surprised to see the trauma debuff end up being increased (which would be a nerf to Shadows, btw) once people realize that in the objective based WZ we have right now your best bet is to stack half your team with healers. I won't have an opinion on the matter myself until I actually see how the rateds shake out, but I'm saying it wouldn't surprise me if that ends up happening. Personally, I still think the problem with stacking heals in the WZs is because they made the objectives too close together in Void and Alderaan so it's too easy to shift your defenders back and forth to them, but that ship has sailed long ago.

 

Heavy healer isn't all its cracked up to be even on Voidstar. 0-0 pretty much indiciates futility on both side which is why I never understood people post screenshots from such a game. By the way, if Assassins are as strong as people say they are, you'd be able to break a 0-0 game every single time by attacking the less defended side by yourself, since by definition the less defended side can only have at most 3 guys which, according to people, is something they can defeat by themselves. Seriously though, an Assassin should not be participating in the big brawl in a stalemate in the offensive. While you cannot beat 3 guys on your own, you can definitely pin 3 guys from the weaker side by yourself between your survivality + fast respawn (you'll generally respawn and get back on time before the 3 guys you fought can even get back to full health from going out of combat), which implies you should have a 7 on 5 advantage and hopefully your team can capitalize a 2 man advantage and win.

[LordbishopX]

Seriously, you should just read 1 or 2 pages back and notice we already had this discussion. If you're too lazy, I'll provide it again. The Shadow on row two. 370k damage, 70k+ protection, 100+ healing.

 

http://i.imgur.com/PfrWV.jpg.

 

 

Was this this before or after the water of life nerf? Hmmm. things to think about about which makes healing numbers meaningless lol. Score.....

[Neamhan]

Heavy healer isn't all its cracked up to be even on Voidstar. 0-0 pretty much indiciates futility on both side which is why I never understood people post screenshots from such a game. By the way, if Assassins are as strong as people say they are, you'd be able to break a 0-0 game every single time by attacking the less defended side by yourself, since by definition the less defended side can only have at most 3 guys which, according to people, is something they can defeat by themselves. Seriously though, an Assassin should not be participating in the big brawl in a stalemate in the offensive. While you cannot beat 3 guys on your own, you can definitely pin 3 guys from the weaker side by yourself between your survivality + fast respawn (you'll generally respawn and get back on time before the 3 guys you fought can even get back to full health from going out of combat), which implies you should have a 7 on 5 advantage and hopefully your team can capitalize a 2 man advantage and win.

 

Unfortunately, a tank/healer combo (any tank) can hold a door against greater than their own number of attackers long enough for reinforcements to come help. And since the doors are destroyed by an interruptable channel rather than damage that can accrue over time, and the doors themselves and the respawn are so close together, it doesn't surprise me to see good teams fight to a 0-0 tie. It'll be interesting to see how they end up changing the Voidstar tiebreaker.

[Celebrus]

It'll be interesting to see how they end up changing the Voidstar tiebreaker.

 

IF.

 

IF they change it.

[Neamhan]

I thought I read a dev say a while back that they would be changing it. It was back when no one actually knew how the tiebraker worked until a dev finally came out and said a winner was just picked at random on a tie. They didn't have any eta on a change, though.

[AMKSED]

Hybrids are good for hit and run harrassment and ball running thats about it. In toe to toe fight they dont have the staying power.

 

Infact in a 1v1 fight on two equally geared and skilled players the Pure specced tank will win over the hybrid. The only advantage the hybrid has is the ability to instacast whirlwind and run like a $^

 

I don't have Whirlwind.

 

And you're 100% wrong on this.

 

I've fought plenty of Tanks and even Marauders and stayed above 90% health with this spec.

[AMKSED]

I have played Shadow Tank since day 1, with the goal of using the 31/0/10 build. I like tanking. Now that I pvp heavily, I have maintained that mentality. I like tanking in PvP even more than PvE. I have a smattering of Battle Master tank spec gear, with the full Champion gear tank set, as well as a full Champion DPS set.

 

My 2 cents:

 

Even in the full DPS set, my burst capability is nowhere near what pure DPS classes can generate. Yes, I can occasionally obtain some moderate flashy numbers when ALL my cooldowns are in available, but, short of those who recently hit 50, I'm not burning anyone down the way DPS specs can.

 

In my full tank set, my DPS is drastically lower, and my survivability is drastically higher. Shocking how that trade off works.

 

I think that there are a couple factors leading to this particular debate.

 

First. People are prone to deal in extremes, and ignoring the middle ground. Translated to SWTOR, one might be all about maximizing damage. Or, all about healing. Or, all about mitigation. What those who are using out of spec gear(regardless of class, shadows and assassins aren't unique in this) are doing is taking others outside the norm. They are masters of the middle ground. Players anticipate responding to class A with skill rotation B resulting in fight scenario C. The problem is that this formula can become static in peoples minds, where all these variable are just that(or should be), variable and always changing.

 

After so many fights its difficult not to have a conclusion already drawn at the start of a fight. Innovation on the part of a few has thrown people outside their comfort zone, and they are left thinking, "Wait, that wasn't supposed to go that way."

 

Second. Society has become accustomed to immediate gratification. Again, relating this to SWTOR, MMO battles tend to be quick and furious. Boom, boom, boom and the fight should be over and the winner and loser quickly defined. Many of the posts in this thread are even indicative of this trend. They are little more than outbursts providing the emotional release a frustrated person wanted and contain little to no actual thought.

 

A fight with someone using this build is anything but quick and the outcome will never be immediate. With middle of the road mitagation and middle of the road damage, their strength lies in drawing things out. Its not going to be over fast, and its going to require more strategy and less automated response on the part of their opponent. Bottom line, it will require a little more thinking; which is a requirement many players are not willing to meet.

 

As for the damage/protection/healing shown at the end of a match. What a misleading statistic to base any argument on. All that information is relative to the individual player, the scenarios the warzone presented, and whether they were able to capitalize on their strengths, or had their weaknesses exploited.

 

Sure, I can spam mediocre AOEs on groups all match, and throw my guard/taunt around when Im not being attacked, and my little 450ish heal is popping every once in a while I draw out any combat I'm in. That doesnt make me OP, it makes me a commendation whore. And my team should hate me for it.

 

The AOE spam was unfocused and with any competent healer amounts to little more than an annoyance. My protection was wasted because I had to avoid confrontation to keep from depleting my hit point pool too quickly and I really didnt care who I put it on. And my heals were nowhere near frequent or large enough to have kept me alive had I actually gone after objectives. But at the end of the match..... gosh darn if my numbers didnt look good.

 

Seriously, quit trying to downplay this build lol.

[Astarica]

Unfortunately, a tank/healer combo (any tank) can hold a door against greater than their own number of attackers long enough for reinforcements to come help. And since the doors are destroyed by an interruptable channel rather than damage that can accrue over time, and the doors themselves and the respawn are so close together, it doesn't surprise me to see good teams fight to a 0-0 tie. It'll be interesting to see how they end up changing the Voidstar tiebreaker.

 

It's seriously not that hard to break a 1 tank + 1 healer combo unless it's Darkness + Merc healer because both of these characters are borderline indestructible. By the same virtue of what makes Assassins overpowered is what will allow you to counter the same combo in a mirror match. If you have say Assassin + Sage versus Assassin + Marauder, the latter will easily defeat the former assuming the latter is the side on offense. Yes you might actually start out losing but the offense side gets instant respawns, so yeah one of the two dies but the second guy gets back on the fight almost immediately.

[Neamhan]

It's seriously not that hard to break a 1 tank + 1 healer combo unless it's Darkness + Merc healer because both of these characters are borderline indestructible. By the same virtue of what makes Assassins overpowered is what will allow you to counter the same combo in a mirror match. If you have say Assassin + Sage versus Assassin + Marauder, the latter will easily defeat the former assuming the latter is the side on offense. Yes you might actually start out losing but the offense side gets instant respawns, so yeah one of the two dies but the second guy gets back on the fight almost immediately.

 

The point isn't that it can't be broken, it's that it can't be broken fast enough. Sure, any healer/tank combo can be killed (even the Sin/Merc) but it can't be done so fast a well organized team can't respond.

[kyuyu]

The point isn't that it can't be broken, it's that it can't be broken fast enough. Sure, any healer/tank combo can be killed (even the Sin/Merc) but it can't be done so fast a well organized team can't respond.

 

All 3 warzons favor durable combos, which is why a tankassassin has such huge advantage. Stealth, defense, good dps. Burst damage isn't nearly needed unless a stealthy operative want to ninja a turret that is guarded by a dps sage.

[DarkSaberMaster]

People still crying about Shadows/Assassins. Why am I not surprised?

[AMKSED]

People still crying about Shadows/Assassins. Why am I not surprised?

 

Because it's OP?

[Astarica]

The point isn't that it can't be broken, it's that it can't be broken fast enough. Sure, any healer/tank combo can be killed (even the Sin/Merc) but it can't be done so fast a well organized team can't respond.

 

You're not supposed to take a door down in 30 seconds in Voidstar either.

 

Let's say one door is defended by Sage + Darkness, you sent Darkness + Marauder against those 2.

 

After about a minute or so you're going to have a case that looks like the Sage dead, the lone Darkness fighting two characters that are basically his equals. The Sage might not be coming back up to another 30 seconds. Note that the assault team could've more total deaths at this point than the defense, but it's okay since their guys respawn instantly and Voidstar victor is not decided by having more kills.

 

Now assuming the opposing team has perfect communication. The lone defender is going to lose badly by the virtue he's fighting against basically a mirror match X 2. Factor in travel time (the 2 overpowered class can kill your one overpowered defender before reinforcement can arrive) you'll have to send 2 guys to reinforcement the position to be safe. With 1 guy locked behind a forcefield, this means you have a 6 on 4 advantage in the other door. Hopefully, the other 6 guys on your team can capitalize this opening to take down the door.

 

Of course, sometimes the force field drops the moment the Sage respawned and you're back to where you started. There's certainly a good deal of luck involved. But if you know where to hit, you can always get a very favorable matchup like 5 on 3 somewhere near a door. You might not always be able to convert that to successful bomb, but if you get enough 5 on 3s it's a matter of time.

 

Now there are people who just fight 8 on 7 in one door the whole time. That kind of assault has literally no chance of succeeding. Even 8 on 6 pretty much never works. You need a 2 man advantage to win a door, and you want to have as few people there as possible too. 3 on 1 advantage is pretty much instant win, while 8 on 6 is pretty much no disadvantage for the defender.

[sheerhatred]

Because it's OP?

 

Dude you really need to stop.

 

1. Hate to break it to you but you ain't that good.

 

2. This has to be your first mmo you ever played, because you just throwing out terms with real knowledge. You can call out any mmo but you played but going ofmyou thread here you have no real concept of mmo's, even more ones with PVP.

 

3. I'll do the rest of the community a favor and tell you please just **** already. You have NO clue what your talking about. Your thread is nothing more than a useless troll bait which has been very effective. Which is the only thing I'll give you credit on being good at.

 

 

This is what really kills mmo's people who don't understand the mechanics of the game and cry nerf.

[Sovereighn]

i can assure here in everyone.. tankassin will be nerfed ..only because of this thread.. srsly.. no joke.

 

i have never seen so much QQ in one thread since launch.. oh wait yea maybe in patch 1.1 failum maybe

 

 

well i play an tankassin.. i am getting ready to get buttnerfed because the BW guys always react to to the cry me a river agenda

[Neamhan]

You're not supposed to take a door down in 30 seconds in Voidstar either.

 

Let's say one door is defended by Sage + Darkness, you sent Darkness + Marauder against those 2.

 

After about a minute or so you're going to have a case that looks like the Sage dead, the lone Darkness fighting two characters that are basically his equals. The Sage might not be coming back up to another 30 seconds. Note that the assault team could've more total deaths at this point than the defense, but it's okay since their guys respawn instantly and Voidstar victor is not decided by having more kills.

 

Now assuming the opposing team has perfect communication. The lone defender is going to lose badly by the virtue he's fighting against basically a mirror match X 2. Factor in travel time (the 2 overpowered class can kill your one overpowered defender before reinforcement can arrive) you'll have to send 2 guys to reinforcement the position to be safe. With 1 guy locked behind a forcefield, this means you have a 6 on 4 advantage in the other door. Hopefully, the other 6 guys on your team can capitalize this opening to take down the door.

 

Of course, sometimes the force field drops the moment the Sage respawned and you're back to where you started. There's certainly a good deal of luck involved. But if you know where to hit, you can always get a very favorable matchup like 5 on 3 somewhere near a door. You might not always be able to convert that to successful bomb, but if you get enough 5 on 3s it's a matter of time.

 

Now there are people who just fight 8 on 7 in one door the whole time. That kind of assault has literally no chance of succeeding. Even 8 on 6 pretty much never works. You need a 2 man advantage to win a door, and you want to have as few people there as possible too. 3 on 1 advantage is pretty much instant win, while 8 on 6 is pretty much no disadvantage for the defender.

 

The only thing I disagree with is that the 6 on 4 can always plant a bomb in 30 or less seconds (depending on now long the healer is stuck behind the forcefield).

 

I'm not saying all Voidstar games with two good teams will always end 0-0. That would be silly. But I don't get the surprise expressed that it's unusual for a Voidstar game with two good teams to sometimes end 0-0 when both teams played well.

[Astarica]

The only thing I disagree with is that the 6 on 4 can always plant a bomb in 30 or less seconds (depending on now long the healer is stuck behind the forcefield).

 

I'm not saying all Voidstar games with two good teams will always end 0-0. That would be silly. But I don't get the surprise expressed that it's unusual for a Voidstar game with two good teams to sometimes end 0-0 when both teams played well.

 

Oh I'm not saying 6-4 will always get you a bomb planted, but that's about as favorable a matchup as you can get if you assume both teams are good and have all the right pieces. You're not going to get an opportunity beter than this against a good team, and it's reasonable to expect some (not all) of these opportunities get converted to bombs. I just don't agree with the '0-0 is the norm between two good teams'. I fact I think a score like 6-4 or 4-4 is the norm between 2 truly good teams, since Voidstar is quite advantageous for the attacker. The respawn mechanism alone generally gives you between 1-2 man advantage permanently. It's just too many teams convert this advantage into a 8 on 6, wihch pretty much never works.

[Neamhan]

Oh I'm not saying 6-4 will always get you a bomb planted, but that's about as favorable a matchup as you can get if you assume both teams are good and have all the right pieces. You're not going to get an opportunity beter than this against a good team, and it's reasonable to expect some (not all) of these opportunities get converted to bombs. I just don't agree with the '0-0 is the norm between two good teams'. I fact I think a score like 6-4 or 4-4 is the norm between 2 truly good teams, since Voidstar is quite advantageous for the attacker. The respawn mechanism alone generally gives you between 1-2 man advantage permanently. It's just too many teams convert this advantage into a 8 on 6, wihch pretty much never works.

 

Heh, I don't think 0-0 is the norm either. I just don't think it's indicative that the teams played badly.

 

The attackers have the advantage at times, but it shifts. The defenders start with the advantage based on how close together the initial doors are, so they can leverage their defenders back and forth as needed. However, once the first doors go down the attackers have a big advantage. The key here is to use CC to stop or delay the defenders, while trying not to kill them. This keeps the attackers ahead of the defenders and prevents them from respawning back closer to the next attack point.

 

If the defenders stop the initial push to the next set of doors and get their people back in place on defense, then the advantage goes back to them. Same principle applies when the second set of doors go down. The hardest thing to try to get a pug to do is to CC and delay the defenders while charging the next set of doors. Killing the defenders at that point just resets them closer to the doors.

[Cyannez]

What I see is another tank with a pocket healer doing over 600k healing. I'm just stunned that a tank that never dies due to healing is able to put up steady damage numbers over an entire WZ. Then I used my stun breaker but was immediately stunned again, since this is Stun Wars.

 

Ok 1st of all i'm not a tank. As you can see in the ss i got a bit over 16k hp. I'm using survivor gear with full dps mod/enh. Which is the same as stalker gear since the armoring are identical and only the set bonuses differ. I even got the 5k / hit medal that game, if that's a tank then who are the real dpsers?

 

2nd he wasn't a pocket healer, he was a healer that healed everyone and especially himself. And he wouldn't have been able to put out that healing without serious protection (170k) from guard and taunt spamming which was, again, provided by me. That's why i was able to get that much effective healing that registered on the scoreboard, because he couldn't top me.

 

I'm playing as a dpser who has guard and is 100% tank specced. You can't really do that as any other class. Juggs staying in soresu have ****** rage generation, while pt's using iron cell cylinder aren't able to put out that kind of dmg.

 

I'm not saying darkness sin's are necessarily op, i just find the current situation kinda stupid. When my best dps spec for wzs is my tanking tree, for reasons going from survivability to utility to sustained dmg, something is really fishy.

 

They should just tweak darkness by increasing threat, reducing dmg, and give a serious utility and/or survivability buff to deception or madness. Move disjunction lower in the tree, increase the armor on insulation or drastically reduce the cost on charge dancing. They could even reduce the burst from deception (which is silly on light / medium armor classes anyway) if they thing further buffs would make that spec OP. Just shift the things around a bit, the current situation is far from "normal".

Edited April 2, 2012 by LexiCazam
Inappropriate content

[Asphen]

Please refocus this thread on Nerfing Shadows and Assassins.

 

 

+1 for the Shadow Nerf.

[Haiyabusa]

...... Edited March 29, 2012 by Haiyabusa
iono

[EduardoJN]

I kill tanksins with my sorcerer.

 

Am i good?

[cycao]

I kill tanksins with my sorcerer.

 

Am i good?

 

Chances are the ones you killed are all bad if that helps out at all.

[EduardoJN]

Chances are the ones you killed are all bad if that helps out at all.

 

Cmon, gimme some credit here, will ya?

[JorrdKarrd]

I feel that shadow KC/assassin darkness needs a nerf, their survivability is far too big to allow such damage output. I hope bioware does something about this soon.