Backstab nerf.... the upcoming death of DD Operatives/Scoundrels

[zizzefex]

DD Operatives/Scoundrels are going to be absolutely murdered this upcoming patch. Nerfing the least played class right into the ground is always such a great move.... yes... it sure is.

 

You want to know the worst nerf though...... it is the Backstab/Backblast nerf. Don't tell me increasing the damage by 5% means absolutely anything.... the CD is increased by 25% (from 9 to 12 seconds).... which is a massive nerf to both Backstab/Backblast (our best non-stealth attack) AND ACID BLADE/FLESCHETTE ROUND. The Backstab/Backblast increased CD nerf is a double duty nerf that also nerf's Acid Blade/Fleschette Round by about 25%ish because you will only be able to re-apply those abilities now every 3 seconds longer.

 

Then they went ahead and nerf'd our 2nd best ability out of stealth... Lacerate/Sucker Punch. Then they also removed our 3% damage talent (vs everything.... you usually had a dot up whenever you did any big damaging attack). Your first 2 hits as a DD Scoundrel/Operative will be just as strong..... and then you will hit like a pillow. Your lacerates will be weak and you will Backstab/Backblast once in a blue moon. I sure hope you kill someone your first 2 hits.... because if you don't... you won't.

 

Just delete the class please.

[Katharsis]

Lemme tell you something , yesterday i made 800 dmg with my shoot first to random mercernary dude.

He was not guarded , not shielded etc.

 

Im wearin best possible gear , full BM with 2 piece of rakata for %15 bonus crit. I feel lost as burst dps class , i feel lost as assasin class.

 

And instead of buffing us they nerfin us to down for third time.

 

Oh well im already unsubbed.

[Joms]

Lemme tell you something , yesterday i made 800 dmg with my shoot first to random mercernary dude.

He was not guarded , not shielded etc.

 

Im wearin best possible gear , full BM with 2 piece of rakata for %15 bonus crit. I feel lost as burst dps class , i feel lost as assasin class.

 

And instead of buffing us they nerfin us to down for third time.

 

Oh well im already unsubbed.

 

Hehe this happens alot;) if first shoot dosnt crit its 1k dmg and you can't recover from that, so DA and find another target... should increase the dmg from First shoot by 50% and make it a 100% crit chance:)

[wiazabi]

9 -> 12 sec

 

Thats 33,3% increase in cd not 25%

[QuiJonPed]

Soooo an extra three seconds equates to once in a blue moon.

 

 

TL : DR?

 

Op tears are the best tears, and that coming from a level 50 Op.

Edited March 22, 2012 by QuiJonPed

[AMKSED]

The class is already easy to play.

 

Knockdown, stab, stab, stab.

[AMKSED]

Lemme tell you something , yesterday i made 800 dmg with my shoot first to random mercernary dude.

He was not guarded , not shielded etc.

 

Im wearin best possible gear , full BM with 2 piece of rakata for %15 bonus crit. I feel lost as burst dps class , i feel lost as assasin class.

 

And instead of buffing us they nerfin us to down for third time.

 

Oh well im already unsubbed.

 

I call BS.

[Koppster]

Losing the best part of your hp to a stunlock/alpha strike from stealth is never fun. It got old fast in WoW and has no place in any other MMO either.

 

This sort of thing will inevitably give rise to legions of nerf criers and ragequitting players, who find their enjoyment of PvP curtailed by OP classes taking any element of player skill and reaction out of the fight equation due to lopsided class advantages.

 

It wouldn't matter if it was only 1 person playing the class/spec on each server. The problem isn't the player, it's about game balance.

 

It needs toning down, it's getting toned down. Other classes/specs are also getting hit with the nerf bat because they too need it. Hopefully the game will be better for it when the dust settles.

 

In the meantime, stop relying on your faceroll hotkey sequence>dead player>restealth>next victim and l2play.

[Bocherel]

Losing the best part of your hp to a stunlock/alpha strike from stealth is never fun. It got old fast in WoW and has no place in any other MMO either.

 

This sort of thing will inevitably give rise to legions of nerf criers and ragequitting players, who find their enjoyment of PvP curtailed by OP classes taking any element of player skill and reaction out of the fight equation due to lopsided class advantages.

 

It wouldn't matter if it was only 1 person playing the class/spec on each server. The problem isn't the player, it's about game balance.

 

It needs toning down, it's getting toned down. Other classes/specs are also getting hit with the nerf bat because they too need it. Hopefully the game will be better for it when the dust settles.

 

In the meantime, stop relying on your faceroll hotkey sequence>dead player>restealth>next victim and l2play.

 

LOL, if op is faceroll then others classes are just as much if not more but thats beside the point, you have no clue what you are talking about.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Bocherel

[DariuszPol]

Losing the best part of your hp to a stunlock/alpha strike from stealth is never fun. It got old fast in WoW and has no place in any other MMO either.

 

This sort of thing will inevitably give rise to legions of nerf criers and ragequitting players, who find their enjoyment of PvP curtailed by OP classes taking any element of player skill and reaction out of the fight equation due to lopsided class advantages.

 

It wouldn't matter if it was only 1 person playing the class/spec on each server. The problem isn't the player, it's about game balance.

 

It needs toning down, it's getting toned down. Other classes/specs are also getting hit with the nerf bat because they too need it. Hopefully the game will be better for it when the dust settles.

 

In the meantime, stop relying on your faceroll hotkey sequence>dead player>restealth>next victim and l2play.

 

You relying on that because there is no other way. I played BH, Jugg, Sorc healer and ofcourse Operative

~ as BH I was spec for DPS. Operative on my back ? Simple. Push him back, stun, move away few meters and spam tracer + Unload + heat seeking etc. He was DEAD before he could send ANY DAMAGE on me.

~ as Jugg I was spec for tanking. I was literaly just helping carrier WHILE having Operative on my back and I didn't even care since I had 26k HP. I hit him 3x for around 3k and put him down AFTER I killed other player and had full rage. Some other time I just slow them down using my AOE snare and didn't care because he could not get close to me WHILE I was fighting with maruder.

~ as Sorc healer I just push them back, user force sprint to gain distance and ignore them (since it takes them forever to get close) or kill them spamming lightning. And bubble every 20s that last 30s make me immune. He CAN'T do a thing because even his first attack will just hit bubble and give me time to react

 

As Operative I had fun on lvl 10-49 for some time. After nerf - less fun but still managable. On lvl 50 it was just faceroll. Because of high HP your and low burst damage you are a joke. And because every class can counter you anyway - you are a bigger joke. And because you can't keep up sustained dps like mara or jugg you are biggest joke of all times.

 

This is what Operative is now. A joke. This is why my favorite class is least played class in game and it will soon be dead. Why ? not because Operative was OP. Because people complained as George said.

I stop playing it and unsubbed.

 

This nerf

~ give 5% damage BUT trade it for 33% cooldown so we will do much less damage (and backstab was working only from behind ANYWAY)

~ 10% nerf to laceration - one of our main attacks

~ hidden strike - that I understand. Hitting 2x with this thing could annoy people and 7.5 cooldown it's not a problem - but still HS was a trade. Give up your only way to escape for one additional hit.

Edited March 22, 2012 by DariuszPol

[TheGreatNeechi]

Soooo an extra three seconds equates to once in a blue moon.

 

 

TL : DR?

 

Op tears are the best tears, and that coming from a level 50 Op.

 

If you played a level 50 Operative you would know good and well how problematic a 12 second cool down back stab really is.

 

Maybe it hasn't occurred to you, but after 1.1.1 we already lost a really huge chunk of our burst and sustained DPS. Counting the 20% drop in armor penetration, and the 20% drop in Hidden Strike damage, that amounts to a 40% overall loss of our opening damage. There was nothing subtle about that nerf.

 

Of course, losing 20% of our armor penetration costs us on sustained DPS, and now they're reducing the number of melee attacks we can execute, which already have clunky cooldowns. Remember how clunky Operative felt at level 10 through about 30? Right, well now it's like that at 50.

 

That 3 seconds is a 33% increase in cooldown... please read that carefuly: 33%. That is not a subtle tweek, that is a huge f*cking axe ruining our already non-existent sustained DPS. Back Stab is one of our bread-and-butter attacks, since half-way up the Concealment tree it becomes free of energy cost. Of course, mind you, that is a SPEC requirement not a class feature.

[kweassa]

Frankly, I don't feel the Ops/Scundies are weak at all.

 

I don't know if it's because people got so used to the "ROFLstab, stab, stab = enemy dead under 10 seconds" crap before the initial nerf, but one thing for certain is most Ops/Scundy I see in the field (...or in the forums for that matter...), have totally lost the "Rogue-instinct" playing tactics which is so important for all stealth classes.

 

As it is I actually see Sentinel/Marauders with just 4 seconds of stealth using it more tactically, than the Ops/Scundies who are like;; attack from stealth -> fall into insane target fixation -> PHAIL -> get ganked and die.

 

 

Basically, Ops/Scundy players expect to be able to kill anything at any given situation, as long as they get the first jump on the target from stealth. They fail to realize that there's a difference between having been given a "great tactical advantage" and "being able to ROFLstomp any opposition".

 

It don't matter if the target is a high defense/armor class, full health, buffed and bursting out the wazoo - if an Ops/Scundy stealthily approaches and fires off the first attack, they expect they should win. They fail at that, and then they come here and cry their class sucks.

 

...

 

I don't care if a certain Ops/Scundy can't even kill a fly 1vs1. All I care is that even under current conditions, I know quite a few Ops players in the Imp faction that have left their mark deeply to my memory... and everytime, it is their uncanny, opportunistic, superbly tactical timing and playing style that makes me remember them as such fearful opponents.

 

 

One thing's for certain - the Ops/Scundies I fear, sure don't need their specs reverted to pre-nerf, nor do they need any gap-closer. It's their playstyle that scares me the most.

 

Judging by the amount of ridiculous whines and exaggerations I've been monitoring in these forums for the past months, I don't trust any of the whiney posters - whichever class they use - and I have serious doubts if they really understand their own class, or how PvP works in SWTOR.

 

...

 

That being said;

 

The only thing I can vouch for the Ops/Scundies, is that they need some sort of talent to allow faster and definate combat closure, so they can re-enter stealth within about 5 seconds of last used hostile/combat action. They don't need a gap closer or revert back to old damaging capacity.

 

5 seconds is just enough time for a stun to last, so with this made possible, combined with the use of a stun/sleep power the Ops/Scundy has about 2~3 chances to re-enter stealth mode without using the 3minute forced stealth. It adds more consideration to the tactical value of the use of stuns/sleeps, as well as opens up chances for the Ops/Scundy to manage the combat better, giving extra chances to use high-damage attacks from stealth.

 

 

This, should be the main difference between an Assasin/Shadow and Ops/Scoundy, whereas the tactical use of stealth is much limited to the first initial advantage for Assasin/Shadows, Ops/Scundies should be given an option to utilize that advantage even during combat, so they can find/implement their own unique playstyles to manage the fight to their own terms, so they can find chances to re-stealth.

 

Capable Rogue players do this all the time in WoW... and how they pop out of stealth to attack, place stuns cleverly, go back into stealth, reposition.. etc etc.. is what defines their style. The better the player, the more easily he does this. It should be the same with Ops/Scundies.

 

If they ask that, then I vouch for it.

 

Frankly, the requests for damage/penetration values to be reverted, or to be given ranged CCs, or gap closing skills, is just out of whack and stupid, IMO. Ops/Scoundies should not be given just straight-forward, damaging capacity as compensation.

 

What they should be given, is a means for each player to capitalize their unique class strength during combat more often, so people who practice it and perfect it, can implement it to their own combat style more easily.

Edited March 22, 2012 by kweassa

[xxIncubixx]

yes because losing tons of hp before u can do something is really funny right?

[DariuszPol]

So in your one sided opinion

~ Operative should not by able to kil anyone

~ Operative should not be in ANY USE except stunning

~ He should not be able to kill anyone 1vs1

~ All he should do is to annoy people ?

 

Don't know if you trolling or you just ...

Edited March 22, 2012 by DariuszPol

[AMKSED]

If you played a level 50 Operative you would know good and well how problematic a 12 second cool down back stab really is.

 

Maybe it hasn't occurred to you, but after 1.1.1 we already lost a really huge chunk of our burst and sustained DPS. Counting the 20% drop in armor penetration, and the 20% drop in Hidden Strike damage, that amounts to a 40% overall loss of our opening damage. There was nothing subtle about that nerf.

 

Of course, losing 20% of our armor penetration costs us on sustained DPS, and now they're reducing the number of melee attacks we can execute, which already have clunky cooldowns. Remember how clunky Operative felt at level 10 through about 30? Right, well now it's like that at 50.

 

That 3 seconds is a 33% increase in cooldown... please read that carefuly: 33%. That is not a subtle tweek, that is a huge f*cking axe ruining our already non-existent sustained DPS. Back Stab is one of our bread-and-butter attacks, since half-way up the Concealment tree it becomes free of energy cost. Of course, mind you, that is a SPEC requirement not a class feature.

 

Fail math tbh.

 

20% armor pen removed =/= 20% less damage done.

[Lord_Karsk]

I want scoundrels and operatives to have just a good time playing like everyone else..

 

But the truth is most of these players are just bad players who fails to understand they have other skills then the 1 button they spam, while trying to get behind the other player. Most times i dual these players they spam that one skill 90% of the time because they know it's a winn skill. That with more stuns then others.So l2p stop whining and use

your other skills like everyone else to winn.

[Polimeris]

Sigh...

Most of you don't get it.

 

On one side, you have ops/scoundrels whining because they lose an enormous amount of sustained damage (irreversabily damaging an already weak spec in PvE).

On the other side, you have other classes whining because ops/scoundrels have burst when stealthed.

 

One side whines because outside stealth ops/scoundrels will be even more subpar.

One side whines because inside stealth ops/scoundrels are currently performing well.

 

The patch will confirm the ganking role of ops and scoundrels by decreasing effectiveness outside of ganking gameplay.

 

That's what everyone doesn't want to happen.

[DariuszPol]

I want scoundrels and operatives to have just a good time playing like everyone else..

 

But the truth is most of these players are just bad players who fails to understand they have other skills then the 1 button they spam, while trying to get behind the other player. Most times i dual these players they spam that one skill 90% of the time because they know it's a winn skill. That with more stuns then others.So l2p stop whining and use

your other skills like everyone else to winn.

 

Do you have lvl 50 Operative ? When I switched class because as Operative I was tired of

~ only be able to attack half dead targets

~ only be able to kill unprotected by bubble Sorc

I just noticed how bid difference is between Operative and any other class after surge and ap nerf.

 

When you know how to play Operative you know how to counter them and for the love of god - i counter them nice.

 

Right now as Powertech I can have Operative on my back and give a ****. Same with Jugg. Jug on top of that have +26 HP and with their damage it would take them forever to kill me. As Sorc healer I don't give a f*** because their initial burst is just faceroll that don't even break my bubble (20s cooldown) and I still have force speed, push back on low cooldown, stuns etc to keep him away from me. And with no gap closer they are not a threat. And as healer I can just IGNORE them because they have NO WAY to put me down 1vs1.

 

When I notice Operative or Scoundrel on the map I just keep my bubble and when my buble is down I turn camera around and reposition myself. That's it (sorc healer). When they are close I just kill them. How ? Simple.

~ first push back, that rotfl class have no way to get close after that.

~ Then I spam all kind of lightning to slow them down and kill them

~ if they get close I use force speed, take distance and repeat

~ even if they can get close after that I can use push back again

~ EVEN if by some ungodly power they will be able to attack me - I still have bubble and I can spam that thing on my because it last LONGER than cooldown I have on it that prevent me from using it

 

It's so simple and stupid to kill Operatives that I have no idea how I was able to play it before. Probably because 99% folks on WZ have tunnel vision and sometimes they even ignore ball carrier passing by.

 

l2p ? extremly bad ? I can kill you any time you want if you are Operative and you have no ways to do any damage. Only way for you to attack with some success is to catch me IN COMBAT with another player with my bubble down. That's the only way.

 

From opportunistic bastards Operatives became just vultures that try to kill only things that are almost dead or already in combat with another player.

[me_unknown]

Counting the 20% drop in armor penetration, and the 20% drop in Hidden Strike damage, that amounts to a 40% overall loss of our opening damage. There was nothing subtle about that nerf.

 

Oo

 

a drop of 20% armor penetration is not a 20% damage reduction !!!

[Chasidim]

I want scoundrels and operatives to have just a good time playing like everyone else..

 

But the truth is most of these players are just bad players who fails to understand they have other skills then the 1 button they spam, while trying to get behind the other player. Most times i dual these players they spam that one skill 90% of the time because they know it's a winn skill. That with more stuns then others.So l2p stop whining and use

your other skills like everyone else to winn.

 

we have no skill that we can "spam"

 

shiv: 6 sec cd

backstab: 9 sec cd

hidden strike: requires stealth

lacerate: requires tactical advantage.

debilitate: 30 sek cd

sever tendon: i mean really?

 

so we can spam rifle shot. yay!

[Chasidim]

edit: that's the main problem here. the game is almost 4 month old and it's strange how little most of the people know about the operative. there are a lot of fairy tales of operatives one-shotting tanks, spamming abilitys they don't have, killing everything in one stun and so on.

at least try and understand, how our class works, bevor complaining that it's doing stuff that it can't do!

[DariuszPol]

we have no skill that we can "spam"

 

shiv: 6 sec cd

backstab: 9 sec cd

hidden strike: requires stealth

lacerate: requires tactical advantage.

debilitate: 30 sek cd

sever tendon: i mean really?

 

so we can spam rifle shot. yay!

 

He is just a troll that know nothing about Operatives, everything look the same for him but he wanted to write a comment. Small correction. On 1.2:

 

we have no skill that we can "spam"

 

shiv: 6 sec cd

backstab: 12 sec cd, usable ONLY from behind (33% time nerf, 5% to damage)

hidden strike: requires stealth and usable ONLY from behind, 7.5s cooldown

lacerate: requires tactical advantage (that can be gained by killing someone or using shiv on 6s cooldown, -10% damage nerf).

debilitate: 30 sek cd (ONLY with right spec, 60s standard)

sever tendon: i mean really? (almost no damage, also on cooldown, can stop player for 2s if upgraded - our snare)

 

so we can spam rifle shot. yay! (that have high power cost and cannot be spammed because we run out of resources)

 

But that guy know better... because people like him, clueless that just whine because "we spam 1 button all the time" we got nerfed. Bioware said it. We are not nerfed because we are OP. They nerf because people complain that 4 Operatives kill them. MORE to that - one buy on this forum was raging about how he lost fight against... 4 operatives. HE WHINED that 4 Operatives killed him...

 

It's like Bioware don't want people roll Operatives at all.

Edited March 22, 2012 by DariuszPol

[TheGreatNeechi]

Fail math tbh.

 

20% armor pen removed =/= 20% less damage done.

 

Really?

 

20% less armor penetration means... wait a minute... 20% less damage gets through.

 

That is effectively an additional 20% loss of damage output.

[VertisReaper]

Really?

 

20% less armor penetration means... wait a minute... 20% less damage gets through.

 

That is effectively an additional 20% loss of damage output.

 

no...that is not what it means, hahaha. Flechette round used to cut my 5k armor (30% dmg reduction) as a guardian down to 2.5k armor @ 50% penetration (19% dmg reduction). Now it cuts it down to 3.5k armor @ 30% penetration (24% dmg red).

 

Thats a 5% dmg loss, not 20% hahahaha. And that is on a guardian with HEAVY armor, the effects are greatly diminished on light/med armor.

 

Math just evades people

Edited March 22, 2012 by VertisReaper

[TheGreatNeechi]

no...that is not what it means, hahaha

 

Interesting, so I guess armor penetration is a vapor variable that doesn't really exist.

 

I mean, you can balance it either side of the equation. You can take 40% right off the top, or you do what Bioware did and take 20% off the top, and then 20% off the receiving end.

 

Oh well... what can I say... logic just evades people.