Death of a Tanky-Tank

[Coramac]

All of this is extremely speculatory. The number of situations when you can catch both a tank AND his guarded targets in an AoE, both cc'd, both with cc breakers on cd, and with you completing a channeled attack, I doubt you've done this more than once. And I doubt your numbers are as high as you say they are.

 

It's actually not that uncommon. Although granted, I usually don't try. There's no need unless it's a tank and healer heavy group. Then, the real difficult part is not getting interupted which is actually rather difficult once people figure out what your doing.

 

I usually run with a Focus Guardian. We work together to herd people. I'm pretty sure I mentioned this.

 

Funny how that's such amazing damage but we've heard nothing about troopers being capable of this until now?

 

Hint: (because he's lying)

 

Hint: Everyone runs Assault and likes 1v1 oriented builds. Deep Tactics is terrible 1v1. It doesn't have the Super HIB everyone loves so much (I still like it- but it is getting nerfed into the ground in 1.2).

Edited March 29, 2012 by Coramac

[Varicite]

Mines over 2700. It's up at 2900 buffed. Pulse Generator puts it at 4350 non-crit. All I need is a single crit and I'm going to break 8k against a Tank if I catch his guarded target. With all consumables up my ticks usually break 3k crits and ~60% chance to crit.

 

Tanks usually have a bit more straight damage reduction, but 12k is pretty common on a full channel if I hit the guarded target with consumables.

 

And you can do this reliably what, maybe once every 45 seconds, and that doesn't even guarantee all of the ticks.

 

You're talking about a full channel here, using a melee range interruptable channel that anyone brighter than stick can simply walk out of unless stunned. You're talking about 2 people, so you're counting on both of them being braindead, CC breakers down, and not only stand there for the full duration of your AoE stun, but continue to stand there after it ends to eat the rest of your non-targeted channel.

 

Doesn't really sound like a sound strategy imo, coming from a PT. In 1.2 maybe, w/ the snare attached to the channel, and the DoT snare it will work out better. Right now, you can get lucky sometimes, but it's really more useful to get targets to move out of the way than for damage. I certainly wouldn't be wasting my cooldowns on it....

 

Edit: Seems you addressed this above, so disregard I suppose. : P

Edited March 29, 2012 by Varicite

[DarthxRage]

My tanky tank is not effective in pvp? I guess I've been doing it wrong despite leading the charge and in some cases, dragging, my team to victory. My job is not to kill. My job is to make my people live 2-3x longer while using my many stuns to help secure objectives. Oh yeah, I score more goals than Pele. This game is not balanced for 1v1 and last time I checked, the person who wins is the last man standing and tanks are hard as hell to kill even when you bypass their defenses. Edited March 29, 2012 by DarthxRage

[Coramac]

And you can do this reliably what, maybe once every 45 seconds, and that doesn't even guarantee all of the ticks.

 

You're talking about a full channel here, using a melee range interruptable channel that anyone brighter than stick can simply walk out of unless stunned. You're talking about 2 people, so you're counting on both of them being braindead, CC breakers down, and not only stand there for the full duration of your AoE stun, but continue to stand there after it ends to eat the rest of your non-targeted channel.

 

Doesn't really sound like a sound strategy imo, coming from a PT. In 1.2 maybe, w/ the snare attached to the channel, and the DoT snare it will work out better. Right now, you can get lucky sometimes, but it's really more useful to get targets to move out of the way than for damage. I certainly wouldn't be wasting my cooldowns on it....

 

Edit: Seems you addressed this above, so disregard I suppose. : P

 

No, your points are good. The build is not overpowered- post 1.2 maybe. Pulse Cannon is an awkward ability to use and the build is very dependent on it. It's terrible 1v1 against most classes and specs. It really doesn't come into it's own unless you are running with another class(s) that has strong AoE and displacement abilities. In this situation, not only is the AoE burst lethal to people at full health, but you also have a much stronger ability to force people into taking the full effect.

 

I started running it to get ready for 1.2. I've just been amazed at how effective it is on live servers.

[Varicite]

No, your points are good. The build is not overpowered- post 1.2 maybe. Pulse Cannon is an awkward ability to use and the build is very dependent on it. It's terrible 1v1 against most classes and specs. It really doesn't come into it's own unless you are running with another class(s) that has strong AoE and displacement abilities. In this situation, not only is the AoE burst lethal to people at full health, but you also have a much stronger ability to force people into taking the full effect.

 

I started running it to get ready for 1.2. I've just been amazed at how effective it is on live servers.

 

I used to run the PT version of the spec (Advanced Prototype) a lot before settling into the TD-less Pyro build I use now; I had to keep the interrupt cd, it's too useful for healers. I know what a buffed Flamethrower can do to a group, but it's just too iffy to rely on right now. People don't realize it's actually our hardest hitting attack baseline, buffed by 50%, and we have an insane crit rate when we want.

 

I'm excited to try out the new changes myself, though. Should be much more usable. : )

Edited March 29, 2012 by Varicite

[Toonicker]

So I rolled a Mara.

 

Wow. I have been playing with a broken class for so long, I literally forgot what it is like to play with a class that works like it is supposed to. Marauder is so much more balanced, I truly can't believe they're going to buff it. The difference between Jugg and Mara functionality is absolutely stunning.

 

Main difference: Mara's offhand holds a saber - a saber that does something. Jugg's offhand holds a shield that does nothing.

 

But the subtle difference in class quality are what make Tank-Jugg and even Smash-Jugg look awful in comparison.

 

Survivability is easily higher. Mara DPS offsets tank defense; and I slice through them because tank defense has no quality to offset high DPS.

 

I can only assume other classes, particularly DPS and heals, don't want tank fixed because they like the easy advantages.

 

HAH, I agree, I did the exact same thing, rolled Mara and wow what a difference, I can actually controll the battlefield on my Mara, I just dont have the ability to do so on my Jug, sure I can stunlock a healer for a few seconds while the rest of the team hammers me down. But the difference between the two classes is incredible balance wise, My Jug feels half thought out and half finnished in comparison.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Toonicker

[Daxun]

Thanks for this post! I can only assume no one commented on it because they would rather pretend its not the truth. Also, I watched that video, it was awesome.

 

Thanks!

[TDRedmage]

It's actually not that uncommon. Although granted, I usually don't try. There's no need unless it's a tank and healer heavy group. Then, the real difficult part is not getting interupted which is actually rather difficult once people figure out what your doing.

 

I usually run with a Focus Guardian. We work together to herd people. I'm pretty sure I mentioned this..

 

And I love how you started off bragging about 20k burst, then it became 14k, then 12k, then 8k....

 

Even if it's true (still waiting for those SS)... Like someone above me said it relies more on your opponents being stupid. That and the fact that you require a specific set of circumstances (enemy cc breakers on cd, enemies standing on top of each other, not getting interrupted) means that I don't believe you can do this as reliably as you're boasting.

 

And that means it's NOT a very good argument against using guard.

Edited March 29, 2012 by TDRedmage

[maticlandarr]

Truth.

 

My fresh 50 Iron Fist with only cent gear, not even all cent, can still hit 100k damage and 40-60k prot. With proper gear I see no problem getting 300k.

 

My fresh 50 guardian with only cent ear/implants/belt can easily do the same. People whining about tanks and guardians specifically just dont get it.

 

I see a lot of pvp tanks geared wrong and specced wrong. Tanking in pvp is more about utility than being a wall of meat. Defense is not nearly as importnt as many think.

[Coramac]

And I love how you started off bragging about 20k burst, then it became 14k, then 12k, then 8k....

 

Even if it's true (still waiting for those SS)... Like someone above me said it relies more on your opponents being stupid. That and the fact that you require a specific set of circumstances (enemy cc breakers on cd, enemies standing on top of each other, not getting interrupted) means that I don't believe you can do this as reliably as you're boasting.

 

And that means it's NOT a very good argument against using guard.

 

No, it relies on CC and a group working together. It's only 20k when you include another player. I never said otherwise. It's a 10 meter cone that's pretty wide... people dont' have to stand on each other.

 

And like you said, you stay near your healer. You're easy to tag.

[Zunayson]

I can't belive people didn't first get this into the heads of themselves when they first heard of tanks/heals/damage:

 

Damage are squishy, but good luck surviving long enough to kill him anyways.

Tanks don't kill fast, they just don't die, so they have ample time to kill YOU.

Healers shouldn't and won't die to any one single person. Period. Of course that other person shouldn't die, either. It should be a stalemate ending in the other person getting friends, or just forgetting about the healer

 

I agree that if a tank and a DPS stood off that they should be equally matched. That's the whole point.

[TDRedmage]

No, it relies on CC and a group working together. It's only 20k when you include another player. I never said otherwise. It's a 10 meter cone that's pretty wide... people dont' have to stand on each other.

 

And like you said, you stay near your healer. You're easy to tag.

 

.... I am the healer. And me and my tank don't stand in AoEs. I've stated all the arguments I possibly can. Your "counter" to guard is incredibly situational and in no way discounts the usefulness of guard. Period.

[Zunayson]

Also, shields and armor mitigate enough damage in the sense of... kenetic/energy and ranged/melee is weak against them. Ever played Marksman sniper against a sheild vanguard? Do it, then tell me they need to be buffed. They don't, they just need to be reworked to include Tech/Force and Internal/Elemental

 

The problem is that too much damage is internal/elemental, and WoW lore (lolore) includes armor doing nothing against magic. SWTOR (Whether you like it or not) bases many things off WoW (Not saying anything, just stating a point). One of those is how most "caster" (Force user) damage goes through armor. This means that there is no counter to the damage except through "effecient" tanks, which are tanks focusing on HP for those of you who know.

 

I think it would work better if there was armoring that was weak, but had lots of DPS stats, more "medium" armor rating with lots and lots of endurance, and then the highest armor rating with medium endurance.

 

That way, you could choose to stack either armor or HP. That would solve the problem. Of course then tanks would have like 30,000 hp, and people would cry OP especially the hybrid sin/shadow (Never played it, don't know any details, so I can't really have an intelligent conversation about them).

 

That would solve caster damage without making some people cry about magic (Even though it's the force, and it's been established for a while that lightning is stopped by lightsabers, armor, and other energy shields).

[Naselus]

I see a lot of pvp tanks geared wrong and specced wrong. Tanking in pvp is more about utility than being a wall of meat. Defense is not nearly as importnt as many think.

 

Then why the hell is all the tank PvP gear loaded with it? Why do tanks get PvP sets which have a bunch of mitigation stats that only work half the time? Why, precisely, are we supposed to PvP tank in non-tank PvP gear?

 

It's a bit like if all the Sorc PvP gear had a ton of Strength on it. It's useless for you, but that's OK because you're meant to use the Assassin set instead...

 

The reason tanks are inferior in PvP (unless you're in full BM, in which case you're getting plenty of damage reduction from elsewhere to compensate - and no, not all the other players in the world are in full BM, so they're not countering your expertise rating), is quite simple - all our PvP gear spends half to three quarters of it's item budget on stats which aren't used on half the attack types. We get a ton of shield, absorb and defence (plus huge armour levels which are ignored by Internal and Elemental damage types), and then get minced by a steady steam of force and tech attacks that ignore all our equipment.

 

 

It's like playing wearing level 30 gear. Defence is an expensive stat, so if it's not offering any survivability in PvP it's costing us optimization which other classes are able to maximize. If the item budget on all the PvP tank gear was spent purely on Endurance rather than wasting it on defense, shield and absorb, then tanks would be proper damage sinks with 30k health. Either Bioware needs to employ a budget discount on defence, absorb and shield in PvP, to counter it's massively reduced effect, or else they need to introduce some form of mitigation against tech and force-based attacks, and plaster it all over tank gear.

 

As for those saying this being fine because we have guard - get real, a 15 metre range makes it of questionable use in anything but the most static of fights.

[sonickat]

It's called paper, rock, sissors and it is balanced. You can kill some people and you should run from others. Other people can kill different people and should run from different people.

 

You will never find a game that balances where everyone has an equal chance to kill every other class. It simply isnt possible. What makes class A able to kill class B makes class A unbeatable by Class C what makes Class C able to beat class A makes Class C unbeatable by class B.

[Varicite]

Then why the hell is all the tank PvP gear loaded with it? Why do tanks get PvP sets which have a bunch of mitigation stats that only work half the time? Why, precisely, are we supposed to PvP tank in non-tank PvP gear?

 

In general, most of the PvP sets are terribly itemized. My PvP set came loaded down w/ accuracy, even though all but 1 of my attacks have a 100% base accuracy rate.

 

Yay?

[Carcarah]

Now that I understand better the mechanics of a Guardian and the game, it is clear that we Guardians (as any other class) have PvE and PvP spec trees.

 

Defence/Immortal is our PvE spec exclusively and it will not change. For those that think that group utility is more important, here are a few facts that you need to know before trash talking:

 

As full Defence spec I've done easily more than 150-200K protection but could rarely do more than 100K dmg.

 

In hybrid Vig/Defence generally about 80-100K protection and do about 200-300K dmg.

 

But as Focus spec, my prefered spec btw, I can still do 80-100K protection but easily overpass the 400K dmg barrier.

 

The biggest difference IMHO between Vig/Def spec and Focus spec is the first one you can kill healers while in the Focus spec you can't.

 

So, what is a better group utility? If you answered Defence you should go back to school because your math is really rubish.

 

BTW regardless of which spec your are going Soresu is the only viable PvP form, at least that is how I see it.

 

(english is my 2nd language)

[Missandei]

The most ridiculous thing about PvP tanks that tank gear have emphasis on Shield/Absorbtion/Defense stats while in PvP this stats means near NOTHING.

 

C`mon Bioware, bring some meaning to shields in PvP... At least for Shadows with squishy Light Armor..

Edited March 30, 2012 by Missandei

[UncleJimbo]

... You SHOULD be supporting your team. Which is something tank spec juggernaughts/guardians and assassin/shadow excel at. In fact, it's almost as if it's what they were made to do ....

 

Finally, some people get the meaning of tanks in PvP

Tank specs in PvP should be about control, mitigation through guarding and harassing the enemy healer; all these can be accomplished by tanks in this game.

 

However, hybrid specs of tanks into dps, should allow them to be viable in 1v1, which they actually are

 

I did not pick my tank to be good on defense and awesome on offence; I want to be a good support, finish people off so dps can burn down others and harass the healers. If I want dps, I'll spec into a dps tree and melt face, but I enjoy more the utility the tank stances bring then high crits.

[Comfterbilly]

Tank specs in PvP should be about control, mitigation through guarding and harassing the enemy healer; all these can be accomplished by tanks in this game.

 

2/3rds of these things can be accomplished by any class in this game. Guard itself does not a tank make.

[Coramac]

.... I am the healer. And me and my tank don't stand in AoEs. I've stated all the arguments I possibly can. Your "counter" to guard is incredibly situational and in no way discounts the usefulness of guard. Period.

 

I know you have. That's the problem- it is hard to counter with the consistency and frequency with which it can be pulled off.

 

The problem I am finding you having is that you are making a little bit of a hypocritical argument. The purpose of tanks is to work with and support the team. However, you refuse to accept that the same can be said with a damage spec.

 

It is the coordinated use of Pulse Cannon with other AoE specs / classes that makes it extremely effective. It is only slightly above average without this support. As is frequently the case, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Coordinated AoE burst is devestating in two of the three maps. Due to map design, Voidstar and Civil War very frequently force people into clusters due to map bottle necks and LOS issues. Huttball doesn't, but in Huttball, Hold the Line is a fantastic ability and as I've said, I run with a Guardian which is arguably the best overall ball carrier between Guardian Leap, Force Leap, and the ability to reset Force Leap and displace others through Force Push.

[TDRedmage]

I know you have. That's the problem- it is hard to counter with the consistency and frequency with which it can be pulled off.

 

The problem I am finding you having is that you are making a little bit of a hypocritical argument. The purpose of tanks is to work with and support the team. However, you refuse to accept that the same can be said with a damage spec.

 

It is the coordinated use of Pulse Cannon with other AoE specs / classes that makes it extremely effective. It is only slightly above average without this support. As is frequently the case, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Coordinated AoE burst is devestating in two of the three maps. Due to map design, Voidstar and Civil War very frequently force people into clusters due to map bottle necks and LOS issues. Huttball doesn't, but in Huttball, Hold the Line is a fantastic ability and as I've said, I run with a Guardian which is arguably the best overall ball carrier between Guardian Leap, Force Leap, and the ability to reset Force Leap and displace others through Force Push.

 

I never said dps can't work with the team. I said your "counter" involves very specific criteria that you won't be able to set up reliably enough for it to render guard useless.

 

AGAIN (ffs): If your channel gets interrupted your counter won't work. If your target uses cc breakers your counter won't work. If your targets don't step RIGHT on top of each other your counter won't work. If I heal through it your counter won't work. If your targets have half a brain your counter won't work.

 

^none of that is hypocritical

 

Your argument is like saying you shouldn't go outside because you could get struck by lightning. Lightning does strike people but the frequency is far too low for it to be sound reasoning.

 

Please stop using "once in a million wz" situations to justify a very effective ability.

Edited March 30, 2012 by TDRedmage

[Coramac]

I never said dps can't work with the team. I said your "counter" involves very specific criteria that you won't be able to set up reliably enough for it to render guard useless.

 

The solution to most of the problems you bring up is a having another competent player.

 

AGAIN (ffs): If your channel gets interrupted your counter won't work.

 

Proper positioning mitigates this tremendously. Next patch reduces interupt options. Hold the Line offers good but not complete protection. This is significantly less of a problem than you imply. Additionally, the CD on Pulse Cannon is 12 seconds.

 

If your target uses cc breakers your counter won't work.

 

False. If the target uses CC breakers, he can move. I can turn. He has a limited window of escape. Additionally, the frequency with which the combo can be set up is significantly faster than the CD of CC breakers.

 

If your targets don't step RIGHT on top of each other your counter won't work.

 

False. 10m cone AoE does not require targets to stand on top of each other.

 

If I heal through it your counter won't work. If your targets have half a brain your counter won't work.

 

The damage is back loaded into the final 1.5 seconds. It's possible. It's extremely unlikely. It's more likely that the tank is just going to take a lot of damage, then you'll get interupted and the tank will get tagged with Ion Pulse and Dispactch and die.

 

Your argument is like saying you shouldn't go outside because you could get struck by lightning. Lightning does strike people but the frequency is far too low for it to be sound reasoning.

 

We do it with consistency. Our ability to do it with consistency is probably one of the reasons our group hasn't lost a WZ in around 2 weeks. AoE bombs are powerful.

 

Please stop using "once in a million wz" situations to justify a very effective ability.

 

It's actually like 3-5 times a WZ excluding Huttball. As I've said, most of the time, this is irrelevant. The only time we actively try to Guard burst someone is if we have to. Then we do it and it is effective.

[Varicite]

Proper positioning mitigates this tremendously. Next patch reduces interupt options. Hold the Line offers good but not complete protection. This is significantly less of a problem than you imply. Additionally, the CD on Pulse Cannon is 12 seconds.

 

15 seconds, talented. : )

 

False. If the target uses CC breakers, he can move. I can turn. He has a limited window of escape. Additionally, the frequency with which the combo can be set up is significantly faster than the CD of CC breakers.

 

10m range, how far can you run in 3 seconds? More than 10m.

 

I wouldn't say "significantly faster", since you are still depending on your own CC to ensure the damage. So it's tied to the timers of your own CC, which is 45 seconds for AoE, and 1 min for the 4 sec stun. Otherwise, they can simply walk right out of it, just like I do whenever anyone tries this tactic on my Sin tank.

 

You are also not taking into account the time it takes to build 5 stacks of the buff, which is 6-7.5 seconds of setup by itself.

 

False. 10m cone AoE does not require targets to stand on top of each other.

 

The cone length is 10m, not the radius. The radius is closer to 6-8m, as I have tested this ability quite a bit in situations like you are describing in this thread. They have to be very close to catch both of them.

 

The damage is back loaded into the final 1.5 seconds. It's possible. It's extremely unlikely. It's more likely that the tank is just going to take a lot of damage, then you'll get interupted and the tank will get tagged with Ion Pulse and Dispactch and die.

 

In reality, the final 1.5 seconds of the channel is generally wasted, because people have moved out of the way. Maybe in 1.2, but right now, this happens almost every time w/out blowing a stun first.

 

We do it with consistency. Our ability to do it with consistency is probably one of the reasons our group hasn't lost a WZ in around 2 weeks. AoE bombs are powerful.

 

Your Juggy partner is pretty much the only reason I conceded that this might be a viable ploy, because a Smash bomb going off right as you start the channel might disorient people enough to take full damage, and if it's well-coordinated I can see how it can drop an unprepared guard combo.

 

I do still see it as more of a gimmick than anything, though.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Varicite

[Coramac]

15 seconds, talented. : )

 

15 from the initiation of the ability, 12 from the end :-p

 

10m range, how far can you run in 3 seconds? More than 10m.

 

It depends Guardians have AoE snare. Are you CC'd? Are you tunneling on another target? If you are doing absolutely nothing but trying to avoid an AoE the whole game, sure it's easy, but you've also lost the game if you are doing that.

 

I wouldn't say "significantly faster", since you are still depending on your own CC to ensure the damage. So it's tied to the timers of your own CC, which is 45 seconds for AoE, and 1 min for the 4 sec stun. Otherwise, they can simply walk right out of it, just like I do whenever anyone tries this tactic on my Sin tank.

 

Those are mine. Guardian has root, channeled stun, and AoE disorient which is very effective with the delay on Pulse Cannon. Again, without another person, it's much weaker. Damage that doesn't result in kills or progression in WZ objectives is meaningless. Without someone who can take advantage of or complement the AoE, it's pretty meaningless. Additionally, like above, if everyone is saving their CC and CC breakers to stop an AoE like that... the game is over, they've lost.

 

You are also not taking into account the time it takes to build 5 stacks of the buff, which is 6-7.5 seconds of setup by itself.

 

The cone length is 10m, not the radius. The radius is closer to 6-8m, as I have tested this ability quite a bit in situations like you are describing in this thread. They have to be very close to catch both of them.

 

Actually, I am. I've been playing the spec for a while now. It's very awkward at first. It's a completely different playstyle approach than Assault. Assault, I played more like a predator. Someone gets in kill range and they're dead. Awareness is a big part of PvP and it changes significantly depending on what you're doing. With Assault, the awareness was knowing when and who to target swap for me. With Tactics, it's much more about knowing when and how to use Pulse Cannon. Did I just see an Inquistor use an AoE knockback? Well, I don't want to use Hold the Line. Did a Warrior just use Awe? I have a short window where he's less likely to counter. Am I being targeted by one of the Marauders who will 100% of the time interupt my channel? He has to be addressed first. I have a 3x stack. I need to know where I'm going to be using Pulse Cannon which probably isn't where I currently am standing. I've become MUCH better with more experience in the spec at consistently landing Pulse Generator on multiple targets for the full channel. Try running it for a while, you'll start landing it consistently.

 

Your Juggy partner is pretty much the only reason I conceded that this might be a viable ploy, because a Smash bomb going off right as you start the channel might disorient people enough to take full damage, and if it's well-coordinated I can see how it can drop an unprepared guard combo.

 

I do still see it as more of a gimmick than anything, though.

 

Honestly, it's niche. It's a very powerful niche. I've never said otherwise. It doesn't work nearly as well pugging. For one, targets are going to get Resolved with meaningless CC and knockbacks all the time. You want to know what messes up my Pulse Cannons more than anything? Consulars and Commandos going bowling. And also, let's be honest- no one plays Tactics. Almost no one has any experience in this game dealing with AoE oriented groups. Melee is very popular. Melee makes this much easier to pull off. In the current state of WZs, it's extremely powerful.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Coramac