Healer Testing and the Search for "Underlying Changes"

[RuQu]

Just a thought - and I have no evidence to support this other than the clear concept that they want slower and more sparse healing as opposed to spam healing (see medpack and healer changes).

 

 

Is it possible the changes are not to our characters but rather to the attack speed and damage output of mobs?

 

That's possible. Also nearly untestable since we don't have Live combat logs.

 

I suppose someone could fraps a Boss fight and manually time the interval between attacks, and then compare that to a combat log of the same boss on PTS. There'd be some error in there, though, and that would only be attack speed. Doing the attack damage would be much harder. Manually logging the numbers over the tanks head by hand from the video, and then you would need to adjust for any change in mitigation from the tank on Live to PTS...

 

There is so much room for error I would probably not trust any such report, and would not recommend anyone actually try it.

 

So if that is what was meant, the only way we will know is if we get told so by the Devs.

[Azaranth]

I want to specifically emphasize the point about Smart Targeting on the AoE HoTs. On paper, I think Kolto Bomb/Cloud looks pretty good. But without smart targeting, both spells are wildly inconsistent, and extremely hard to use efficiently.

 

I assume that these spells are not intended to be only usable when every single member of the operation is damaged. It seems to me that they're conceptually intended to be useful even if only half of the raid took damage. Unfortunately, without smart targeting, if half your raid takes some damage, using these AoE HoT spells are a huge gamble.

 

Let's use the Soa fight as an example. It's not uncommon that three or four raid members take simultaneous damage (2x Lightning Balls, tank getting hit, and some lift damage). Our raid clumps up after all of these events. There's a decent chance that Kolto Cloud randomly hits 3 targets that don't need healing, and instead lands on people with full HP.

 

I'm really excited about the usability changes to Kolto Cloud, but until they smartly target lower hp players, it's still a difficult spell to use.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Azaranth

[oredith]

i hope that's not the case. WoW went through this. they specifically didn't want healers sitting around not doing anything (stopcast Gheal?) and added in changes to "promote a more active rotation"..

 

i guess BW takes the opposite stance, and want healers to stand around stopcast-jumping.. >_>

[Azaranth]

Support your local healers. Boycott the Patch 1.2 Healing Nerfs. Make it clear to the Devs that their idea of "balance" is unacceptable. Unsubscribe Today

 

lol.

 

Now I regret bumping a RuQu thread.

[Seront]

lol.

 

Now I regret bumping a RuQu thread.

 

Heh. Yeah... The whole 'omg I'm unsubb WAAAHHH' is really sad and childish. Makes me weep for humanity a little.

[oredith]

Heh. Yeah... The whole 'omg I'm unsubb WAAAHHH' is really sad and childish. Makes me weep for humanity a little.

while you view it as sad and childish, I view it as "voting with your wallet".

 

if you do not un-sub, how are they to know that you're unhappy with the changes?

 

it's like the people who don't vote during elections, yet find it convenient to voice how much they dislike the system.

 

if you are still subbed, AND you are unhappy with changes, I would say that you're the childish one, expecting things to just happen your way magically.

[Azaranth]

if you do not un-sub, how are they to know that you're unhappy with the changes?

 

Sometimes, balancing a game requires unpopular changes.

 

Balancing the game is a long-term investment, and a balanced game will retain more players in the long haul. It's a short-sighted approach to listen to players who are angry because their class is being adjusted.

 

Feel free to unsub. If they didn't make changes, they'd lose even more players.

[Elfstrom]

Thank for the good work guys! And keep this up..

 

Seems like GZ not only is ruining our class.. hes telling us bare lies.

 

Feel free to unsub. If they didn't make changes, they'd lose even more players.

 

Please, dont call THIS balancing.. its a joke.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Elfstrom

[ikinai]

and so, the system is working, right? you feel that the "balance" is just, and called for, and that I feel they are not.

 

you voted by keeping your sub, and I voted by cancelling.

 

the difference is, somehow, my position is childish and crybaby, and your's is the adult one.

 

I would view the adult choice to simply keep quiet and do what ever it is you are going to do without announcing it either way.

[Caille]

That earlier posted was also me...the guy you quoted.

 

We know what GZ said. We are looking for evidence of it so we can account for it in assessments of post-patch performance. Currently the testing and evidence all says that there were no changes, despite his Guild Summit comment, which is why another poster said he was lying.

 

I said feel like lies were told to us, but that testing and what we found on the PTR by the time it went live would be the ultimate judge.

 

I did not say he lied. I said it feels like we were told lies.

 

Small yet important distinction. I cede there is a chance he was completely honest and always have.

 

 

Alexis

*smiles*

[Nazguapo]

Thank for the good work guys! And keep this up..

 

Seems like GZ not only is ruining our class.. hes telling us bare lies.

 

 

Please, in the final stages of Beta, everyone was freaking out about how Assassin/Shadows got nerfed. They haven't gotten a substantial buff since, yet people are still crying that they're OP.

 

Also, it's entirely possible that the point of the PTS release is to determine what stealth changes will be made to the overall stats.

 

To the OP, you should include in your data figures from 1.1.5 in order to guarantee accuracy.

[Nazguapo]

on the contrary, i associate a child as someone who can not view something, and realistically assess the dangers without experiencing the danger first hand.

 

as an adult, I can look at the fire on the stove, notice that the pan has been sitting on it for a while, and make the reasonable assumption that the pan will be hot.

 

now, maybe it's some super-unobtainium pan that does not transmit heat, and is in fact, NOT hot, but my reasoning for assuming it will be hot, is based upon experience, and caution.

 

a child, will not have processed that, and will know for sure, if it is hot or not, by simply touching it. so in a sense, a child is much more vulnerable, but will also ultimately know the truth.

 

that's what's been going on with the healing theory-crafting.

 

the "adult" in this situation, are taking their experience, and making realistic projections on what they assume will be the outcome.

 

maybe the "under the hood" changes ARE magical, and the pan won't be hot.

 

but the "children" in this situation, would rather just touch the pan, and hope that it's not hot.

 

But you won't call your mother up and tell her that you didn't touch the stove because you thought it was hot.

[Marverick_]

healing nerf needs answers...

[Lucyfer_Infinity]

You should really give up the analogies. They're just not working.

 

 

 

Not to further your awful comparison, but wouldn't most people simply hover their hand a few inches above the pan to see if it's hot?

 

Seriously, lets actually gather some data about the changes before we throw our tantrums. I wouldn't be surprised to see that all three healers have very comparable output after this patch. Until we have actual data, all this outrage is totally unjustified.

 

If output of light armored healer will be similar to output of heavy armored healer i believe outrage will be justified anyway.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Lucyfer_Infinity

[Lileth]

Logs sent to RuQu. I'll let him work his magic =P

[RuQu]

I wouldn't be surprised to see that all three healers have very comparable output after this patch. Until we have actual data, all this outrage is totally unjustified.

 

Since Scoundrels and Commandos were widely "felt" (and my sims agreed) to be very close to equal in sustained output, and Scoundrel Energy management got a buff (both UH stack increase and faster DS improve their Energy management) and Commando Ammo management got nerfed, I would be VERY surprised if they are comparable. Very. Any under the hood changes like we are looking for would benefit both equally, so would not offset that balance change.

 

As for this fun discussion you guys have been having while I was out, all I can really say is this:

 

Aren't generalizations fun? They let us group everyone we disagree with together, and then attack them equally by equating them with the lowest common denominator of their group.

 

Some people are throwing tantrums, screaming, swearing, name-calling. Others are behaving just as badly in defense of these changes...calling anyone opposed to them names, screaming, mocking. None of that behavior is mature.

 

There are arguments to be made for "wait and see." Most of these are only concerned about the exact changes themselves.

 

Personally, I am more concerned by the nature of the changes, the lack of communication, the lack of vision, the choice to ignore many Scoundrel problems and balance by removing advantages of other classes instead of correcting the lack of some things for Scoundrels, and parallels with similar actions in the past for games that have sense fallen into the Great MMO Graveyard in The Cloud.

 

Unsubscribing is the strongest message I can personally send. Encouraging others to do so as well is no different than starting a petition, except it doesn't leave a thread they can close or move to the Suggestion Forum to die. No one is obligated to unsubscribe if they disagree, and it isn't a selfish "Im taking my ball and going home" action because everyone has their own ball. You are free to not unsubscribe.

 

I consider proactive action to prevent a problem better than reactive action to try and reverse it. As such, protesting now IS the proper time. That's part of why test servers exist. You may disagree, but that is your prerogative and you are free to wait until things go Live. I fail to see how that gives you the right to insult everyone who is trying to make things better now.

 

Even if our testing uncovers under the hood changes that add up to no net nerf, I would still be protesting BW's complete lack of customer interaction and communication. Why should Lileth, his guildies, and I need to spend hours running tests and looking at data to tease out these changes?

 

I have a WoW annual pass, though I havent logged in in almost 4 months, and a friend told me to go read the info on Mists on MMO-Champ last night. I was shocked by the difference in the Blue (Blizzard) posts about the changes compared to the Dev interaction here. They listed the changes coming, explicitly mentioned some player concerns related to them, and either addressed them or stated that they were taken into consideration in the process. I can't imagine getting a post like that to our Healer concerns, and that's a shame.

 

And finally, I am quite clearly not throwing a tantrum. I am vocally and monetarily expressing my disapproval with changes that I think will decrease my enjoyment and with their process. I am also contributing constructively to testing of those changes, and my testing is remaining objective and is not being reported as arguments to support my case, but is reported as "the data is what the data is."

 

In the end, some people like the changes, some people just don't care, some people don't know enough to make a decision one way or the other, some will defend BW no matter what, some don't like the way the changes were made regardless of what they are, etc. All of these are valid points of view (some more informed than others).

 

Everyone, regardless of their opinion on the matter, would benefit from less name-calling, and fewer assumptions about motivations, intentions, knowledge level, and the quickness / level of thought put into the decision of whether or not to keep subscribing.

 

And with that, hopefully we can get back on topic.

[Azaranth]

Stuff.

 

Then I recommend you change your sig from "Make it clear to the devs that their idea of Balance is unacceptable!" to "We don't fully understand the impact of the balance changes, but we're displeased by the way Bioware hasn't been communicative".

 

At that point, I'd feel like you were being intellectually consistent.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Azaranth

[RuQu]

Then I recommend you change your sig from "Make it clear to the devs that their idea of Balance is unacceptable!" to "We don't fully understand the impact of the balance changes, but we're displeased by the way Bioware hasn't been communicative".

 

At that point, I'd feel like you were being intellectually honest.

 

I consider their idea of balance (instead of fixing Scoundrels, nerf the others) unacceptable.

 

Their lack of communication and vision compounds the problem.

 

Our lack of understanding only exists because of their lack of communication. The conclusions we have reached are based on the information at our disposal. What that information is is under their control.

 

*edit* and this petty vendetta of yours in support of BW / in opposition to people expressing their displeasure is completely off-topic. Please take it elsewhere.

Edited March 23, 2012 by RuQu

[Azaranth]

Our lack of understanding only exists because of their lack of communication. The conclusions we have reached are based on the information at our disposal. What that information is is under their control.

 

Is that true? I mean, logs exist now. Go run a few raids to get a decent sample size, and take some comparably geared healers along with you. Parse them, and see how the healing totals compare.

 

I don't disagree that the Devs could be more communicative. My objection is just the over-reaction by people when we don't have enough data.

 

As to your overall point, I don't agree at all. If the choices are either (1) Nerf Commando and Sorc heals, or (2) buff Scoundrels to their level, and then retune every encounter in the game to be a the intended level of difficulty, I think that #1 is the pretty obvious choice.

 

Edit: I'm not surprised that your natural response is to categorize me as a Bioware fanboi, and try to dismiss me. You misunderstand me entirely. I'm merely pleading for a more adult conversation than the one which says "THIS IS TOTALLY UNFAIR!!!!" when we don't even have a decent sample size of data yet.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Azaranth

[RuQu]

Lileth was kind enough to give me a log of 15 minutes of nothing but Hammer Shot healing on his companion Yuun while Yuun smacked a target dummy.

 

Hammer Shot is ideal, as there is no variability in what it heals for. Hammer Shot hits 3 times for one-third of your bonus healing per hit, and each hit has an independent chance to crit. The log records each hit independently, for 3 hits per cast. Every hit will be for the same value, and every crit will hit for the same, so no averaging is necessary to identify the critical multiplier from Surge. The 15% Surge bonus from Potent Medicine was accounted and corrected for.

 

Lileth logged 1858 hits. The number is odd, since it is 619.333333 casts, but I presume that is a timing issue of when the log started/stopped clipping part of a cast.

 

The good news is, we have 1858 casts to examine, which is a nice large sample for averaging out the RNG of critical chance.

 

On the PTS, Lileth's stat sheet lists the following values:

Bonus Healing: 472.6

Critical Chance: 36.83%

Critical Multiplier: 77.62%.

 

When we process the data from his log, we calculate these instead:

Bonus Healing: 501

Critical Chance: 37.14%

Critical Multiplier: 77.81%

 

Lileth is currently raiding, so additional work will have to wait until he has some time again. I will be getting two more logs from him to calculate the change in bonus healing with power and aim. Two data points are not sufficient for defining the log curve of Surge and Crit, but it does certainly appear that they are different server-side than they are on the client, and the PTS character sheet is not displaying the actual values.

[RuQu]

Is that true? I mean, logs exist now. Go run a few raids to get a decent sample size, and take some comparably geared healers along with you. Parse them, and see how the healing totals compare.

 

I don't disagree that the Devs could be more communicative. My objection is just the over-reaction by people when we don't have enough data.

 

As to your overall point, I don't agree at all. If the choices are either (1) Nerf Commando and Sorc heals, or (2) buff Scoundrels to their level, and then retune every encounter in the game to be a the intended level of difficulty, I think that #1 is the pretty obvious choice.

 

Edit: I'm not surprised that your natural response is to categorize me as a Bioware fanboi, and try to dismiss me. You misunderstand me entirely. I'm merely pleading for a more adult conversation than the one which says "THIS IS TOTALLY UNFAIR!!!!" when we don't even have a decent sample size of data yet.

 

My overall point of this thread is an attempt to discuss the stealth changes and how to isolate them.

 

You know, an adult conversation. If you want to complain about people voicing their displeasure when there is still time to do something about it instead of staying silent and complaining after the fact, please do so elsewhere. You can even PM the link if you really want to have that argument with me. Just take it out of this thread.

Edited March 23, 2012 by RuQu

[alderdale]

Just a thought - and I have no evidence to support this other than the clear concept that they want slower and more sparse healing as opposed to spam healing (see medpack and healer changes).

 

 

Is it possible the changes are not to our characters but rather to the attack speed and damage output of mobs?

 

Slow long battles dont happend in PvP and never one v one. And you and I both know that in PvP fully commited to the healing tree (which means we have literally no DPS) against an equal geared DPS class we are now going to lose that battle 90% of the time.

 

We will never have enough energy or heat to both heal through the insane burst damage in this game and somehow also kill the other player, it will never happen. Heat management is designed to work decently for one or the other. At least with some sort of burst healing we could create a small window of opportunity to begin whitling down the other player. Without it we will spend all of our time and resources simply trying to stay alive.

[Valfodr]

Slow long battles dont happend in PvP and never one v one. And you and I both know that in PvP fully commited to the healing tree (which means we have literally no DPS) against an equal geared DPS class we are now going to lose that battle 90% of the time.

 

We will never have enough energy or heat to both heal through the insane burst damage in this game and somehow also kill the other player, it will never happen. Heat management is designed to work decently for one or the other. At least with some sort of burst healing we could create a small window of opportunity to begin whitling down the other player. Without it we will spend all of our time and resources simply trying to stay alive.

 

 

Hey, 1v1 we can still use rapid shots to whittle them down while we wait for heat to vent. After all, we can't target ourselves with rapid shots.

[chaoticzero]

After raiding in the PTS the nerfs to healers are far too harsh especially when inc dmg is high you cannot justify nerfing healers to this much. Sorc/Sage and Comm/Merc are struggling more than ever before. Don't implement this in 1.2 bioware people will not play your endgame

[Caille]

Amazing data RuQu, watching with interest still.

 

Alexis

*smiles*