No nerf to tank Shadows?

[TheGreatFrosty]

Tech Damage is the counter to all the things a Tank Shadow can do. Yes we can survive like a Tank should, but Mercs, Agent Concealment/Sniper, Gunslingers and Scoundrel Scrapper can pack punch to a Tank Shadow and gives huge problems.

 

There is a counter to every class, there is not 1 class that is god mode vs all classes.

 

Good players focus on the classes they can burn down, good premades talk about it during each fight, and good players learn what their strengths and weakness are in PvP.

 

Bad players cry in general chats, go to forums and cry for nerfs, and threaten that they will unsub if something won't be done for their L2P issues.

 

All of it is darn right amusing to me, and I continue to laugh daily to threads like these.

 

FIN

 

I feel, again, I'm having to rationalise slowly with the feeble minded. I'm not threatening to unsub, tried not to make my post "QQ" sounding but just looking for some discussion about this.

 

Are shadow tanks currently the strongest tanks in PVP? Yes. Comparatively, are they then overpowered when set on a scale of PVP tanks? Yes. All of this means that with the upcoming patch, shadow tanks not getting touched seems arbitrary.

 

Within your line of thought, no class should ever get nerfed. Take a 1.0 Operative/scoundrel, for example, they have a counter too - just nuke them at the start, as you say. That's really not the point though - I know enough shadow tanks who realise their spec is overpowered, and whilst I know there aren't a lot of people who'd accept that, I'd at least like those people to be able to defend their points.

 

To reiterate, I'm simply trying to discover the reasoning behind why shadow tanks were untouched, given their current tanking advantage in PVP.

[Aethyrprime]

They are the one class to not get touched. It shouldn't be about what one individual can or can't do, it's about comparative power in the tank classes. I'm not a bad PVPer, I can beat an assassin tank. My point is that it takes a fair amount to do so - they are easily the most powerful tanks currently in PVP.

 

They have the highest health pool, 3-4 stuns (if you count the stealth one), they do have the highest DPS out of the tank classes...

 

I mean, where's the balance? It feels for me that juggernaut/guardians right now do exactly what a tank should be doing in PVP. In their tank spec, their DPS is heavily compromised and function mainly as carriers, objective handlers, guards, interrupters, healer getters etc.

 

Shadows can offer a lot more, particularly when it comes to sustained DPS.

 

A previous poster mentioned that if shadow tanks get nerfed in PVP then their PVE will be in trouble. Whilst I can appreciate the argument, I don't see why that means a shadow tank should have so many abilities, in a tank tree, which compliment his/her DPS. This includes auto critis, 75% tk throw... etc.

 

Interjection : To counter the "ZOMG Vanguard and Guardian can do X damage"

I'm talking about their tank trees ONLY.

 

Everything you just said is totally false. My DPS geared Jugg-Tank totally *** pwnstomps the dps of my dps geared Assassin-Tank. Juggs have far superior survivability to an assassin when being focused by more than one target plus the ability to suddenly get 30m away from where they were with 1 button push. Juggs have more useful utility albeit less options at a shorter range. A well placed force push will totally remove the player from combat for many many many seconds compared to the 9ish that can be done by an Assassin.

 

Furthermore, my DPS Geared Tank Specc'd Jugg NEVER runs out of high impact attacks.. because of how fundamentally different Rage is compared to Force. If I push a high yield button on my assassin I have no energy left unless a proc is up. A Jugg doesn't have that issue.. An assassin has NO "GIMME MORE FORCE NAO" button.. My Jugg does.

 

Don't even get my started about PT-Tanks, or did you not notice the umpteen thousand posts regarding pyro/tank hybrids and the fact they are nerfing it a bit? The ability to do all damage at range, force pull and force leap equivellents a better knock back.. bleh

 

You are just upset that what we said is correct.. Tankasins are fine. L2P and realize how easy they are to beat if you don't waste abilities at bad times.

 

{EDIT} I didn't even comment on this part of your post:

 

I'm not a bad PVPer, I can beat an assassin tank.

 

So you blatantly admit you can beat an assassin tank.. so the problem is they take time or effort to kill instead of just facerolling? I mean what is the issue here.. either they are OP and you can't kill them or they are fine because you can? Which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

And the final line:

 

Interjection : To counter the "ZOMG Vanguard and Guardian can do X damage"

I'm talking about their tank trees ONLY.

 

This is just pure comedy gold here... You also acknowledge that both of the other tanks can do MORE DPS than an assassin... yet you come here to complain about assassins? What I want to discuss is what you are really after? Did one pop out of stealth in world pvp and gank you? Or rather, did you try to gank one in pvp and it failed? I really can't fathom your rationalization of this situation.. Either they are the most powerful tank or not? Either you can kill them or not? Good grief Charlie Brown.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Aethyrprime

[Antipathize]

The only reason you see assassin tanks outperforming other tank specs is because we learned to ditch the useless absorb/shielding mods and wear dps gear. Other tanks are likely running around in tank gear and thus are subpar for pvp. The smart ones do what the assassins are doing and suddenly they are OP too.

[LoKiei]

I have no doubt that they will be corrected in the future, sage/sorc were not nearly as OP and they got corrected, the shadow/sin correction will come.

 

I think the main reason they were ignored for this patch is that most players who play shadow/sin don't play well enough to be worth mentioning but as ranked pvp comes out the ones who properly use their class will be used as a metric instead of the average player.

[Aethyrprime]

I have no doubt that they will be corrected in the future, sage/sorc were not nearly as OP and they got corrected, the shadow/sin correction will come.

 

I think the main reason they were ignored for this patch is that most players who play shadow/sin don't play well enough to be worth mentioning but as ranked pvp comes out the ones who properly use their class will be used as a metric instead of the average player.

 

I was wondering when you would show up and add your tears to this thread.

[TheGreatFrosty]

 

This is just pure comedy gold here... You also acknowledge that both of the other tanks can do MORE DPS than an assassin... yet you come here to complain about assassins? What I want to discuss is what you are really after? Did one pop out of stealth in world pvp and gank you? Or rather, did you try to gank one in pvp and it failed? I really can't fathom your rationalization of this situation.. Either they are the most powerful tank or not? Either you can kill them or not? Good grief Charlie Brown.

 

You entirely missed my point. Was making the obvious difference between those that fight in a tank spec and those that don't. I was attempt to pre-empt the argument that talks about vanguard/guardian OUTSIDE their tank spec. Stop getting excited and trying to insult wherever you can. Roll that saliva back and take a few moments to read.

[Jurugar]

I kept trying to bring this up in the PTS but they kept closing my threads.

[Rasheth]

Tank shadows are middle of the road. They dont have the best damage and dont have the best mitigation.

 

So nerf them so they have the worst mitigation? Oh wait they already do. Which is compensated by the fact they have more utility. Sooo whats the problem here again?

[Aethyrprime]

You entirely missed my point. Was making the obvious difference between those that fight in a tank spec and those that don't. I was attempt to pre-empt the argument that talks about vanguard/guardian OUTSIDE their tank spec. Stop getting excited and trying to insult wherever you can. Roll that saliva back and take a few moments to read.

 

No you entirely skipped my post. Try looking at the rest of it.. A PT has better damage than an assassin, equal surivability and probably better utility since it can both leap & pull and has stun/interrupts. What is the issue? Again, way to try to dodge the question.. Here let me help you I'll quote myself so it's on this page in full and give you another try.. BTW Please highlight the "insult" in that post.. I read it again and I can't find one?

 

 

Everything you just said is totally false. My DPS geared Jugg-Tank totally *** pwnstomps the dps of my dps geared Assassin-Tank. Juggs have far superior survivability to an assassin when being focused by more than one target plus the ability to suddenly get 30m away from where they were with 1 button push. Juggs have more useful utility albeit less options at a shorter range. A well placed force push will totally remove the player from combat for many many many seconds compared to the 9ish that can be done by an Assassin.

 

Furthermore, my DPS Geared Tank Specc'd Jugg NEVER runs out of high impact attacks.. because of how fundamentally different Rage is compared to Force. If I push a high yield button on my assassin I have no energy left unless a proc is up. A Jugg doesn't have that issue.. An assassin has NO "GIMME MORE FORCE NAO" button.. My Jugg does.

 

Don't even get my started about PT-Tanks, or did you not notice the umpteen thousand posts regarding pyro/tank hybrids and the fact they are nerfing it a bit? The ability to do all damage at range, force pull and force leap equivellents a better knock back.. bleh

 

You are just upset that what we said is correct.. Tankasins are fine. L2P and realize how easy they are to beat if you don't waste abilities at bad times.

 

{EDIT} I didn't even comment on this part of your post:

 

 

 

So you blatantly admit you can beat an assassin tank.. so the problem is they take time or effort to kill instead of just facerolling? I mean what is the issue here.. either they are OP and you can't kill them or they are fine because you can? Which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

And the final line:

 

 

 

This is just pure comedy gold here... You also acknowledge that both of the other tanks can do MORE DPS than an assassin... yet you come here to complain about assassins? What I want to discuss is what you are really after? Did one pop out of stealth in world pvp and gank you? Or rather, did you try to gank one in pvp and it failed? I really can't fathom your rationalization of this situation.. Either they are the most powerful tank or not? Either you can kill them or not? Good grief Charlie Brown.

 

I kept trying to bring this up in the PTS but they kept closing my threads.

 

See below for your answer as to why they keep closing them. THEY KNOW YOU ARE WRONG!

 

Tank shadows are middle of the road. They dont have the best damage and dont have the best mitigation.

 

So nerf them so they have the worst mitigation? Oh wait they already do. Which is compensated by the fact they have more utility. Sooo whats the problem here again?

QFT

Edited March 17, 2012 by Aethyrprime

[GrandMike]

I kept trying to bring this up in the PTS but they kept closing my threads.

 

They are ashamed of what they did with "class balance"

 

Who wouldnt be?

Edited March 17, 2012 by GrandMike

[LoKiei]

No you entirely skipped my post. Try looking at the rest of it.. A PT has better damage than an assassin, equal surivability and probably better utility since it can both leap & pull has Knock back and stun/interrupts. What is the issue? Again, way to try to dodge the question.. Here let me help you I'll quote myself so it's on this page in full and give you another try..

 

lol no.

 

Tank spec PT are more or less useless, I have never seen one put up even semi acceptable numbers. Even the tank spec PTs also have far less surviveability considering they can't stealth, forcerun or self heal.

[Rasheth]

I'm a sage.

I prepared myself for a nerf, I knew it was likely coming, though I really didn't expect it to be as brutal as it is.

 

Now for shadows - why are they not touched?

 

In my honest opinion, the one class that needed a nerf more than any other was tank shadow/assassins.

 

Reasoning for this :

 

1) 5 second immunity (on most moves in the game) on 45 second cool down

2) High single target DPS

3) Remove the reason for anyone to spec either of the other tanks

4) Every shadow I know now goes tank spec - if someone is looking for a DPS build, they are advised to go the tank spec.

 

Hell, why wouldn't they? It has incredibly high defences and still high damage, with a channelled move that can't be interrupted when procced. High utility, the highest survivability, stealth to get away, sprint... Am I missing anything?

 

What was behind this decision? Where is the balance between PVE and PVP? Are these changes based on who QQed the most?

 

If anyone can construct a logical argument that opposes this line of thought please present it. I'm currently at an utter loss to why I'd go anything but a tank shadow currently in PVP.

 

Channelled move can be knocked back not interrupted! lmao so stun them dude or knock them back. I dont fight sorcs waiting to use my interrupt every single time.

 

Stop using so much tech and force attacks and use some white damage. I would rather have sentinels guarded by the force over resilience any day of the week. Or that bubble pt's have.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Rasheth

[Aethyrprime]

lol no.

 

Tank spec PT are more or less useless, I have never seen one put up even semi acceptable numbers. Even the tank spec PTs also have far less surviveability considering they can't stealth, forcerun or self heal.

 

Ok you play against bad players or on a bad server. I am on "Tomb of Freedon Nadd" it has some amazing PTs that are insane to fight. This is a L2P issue only. Once the PTs on your server figure out how to spec/gear trust me you will be crying about them and wondering why you even bothered hating on the middle of the road class "EG BALANCED", Assassins. The tank with the WORST mitigation of all. Sins best defensive stat without gear is Shield Chance and Absorb.. both are neigh useless in pvp as proven in countless topics on this in the forums about tanking and pvp stats.. Furthermore have the lowest base Armor Rating, Have the lowest base Defense chance and only 8 total shield absorbs before Dark Ward is negated reducing their Shield chance by more than 50% when not wearing tank gear.

 

Lies will get you no where.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Aethyrprime

[LoKiei]

Ok you play against bad players or on a bad server. I am on "Tomb of Freedon Nadd" it has some amazing PTs that are insane to fight. This is a L2P issue only. Once the PTs on your server figure out how to spec/gear trust me you will be crying about them and wondering why you even bothered hating on the middle of the road class "EG BALANCED".

 

No, I won't be considering I am a PT, the only two trees worth anything in PvP are Pyro and Advanced Prototype. Every single PT I have come across who runs Tanking in PvP is a joke compared to the people who run the other trees.

 

As a pyro I was able to out DPS both a PT tank and his healer on guard and kill them both while the PT tank did very little damage.(We were all in champ gear).

 

PT is good with damage but you're confusing damage builds with tanking builds, tanking PTs cant put up near the numbers tank sins/shadows can.

[Rasheth]

Ok you play against bad players or on a bad server. I am on "Tomb of Freedon Nadd" it has some amazing PTs that are insane to fight. This is a L2P issue only. Once the PTs on your server figure out how to spec/gear trust me you will be crying about them and wondering why you even bothered hating on the middle of the road class "EG BALANCED", Assassins. The tank with the WORST mitigation of all. Sins best defensive stat without gear is Shield Chance and Absorb.. both are neigh useless in pvp as proven in countless topics on this in the forums about tanking and pvp stats.. Furthermore have the lowest base Armor Rating, Have the lowest base Defense chance and only 8 total shield absorbs before Dark Ward is negated reducing their Shield chance by more than 50% when not wearing tank gear.

 

Lies will get you no where.

 

 

QFT

 

 

Its all about were they fit in! Think for a second OP if you are running a raid or op can you use a tank assassin to tank for you? Yes are they better at it than a guardian, a jugg, or a vanguard/pt? No they are adequate that is all.

 

Yes assassin/shadow tank is good in 1v1 against alot of classes but this isnt COD everything is objective base and when more people stop getting stuck on this 1v1 crap all the time they will be better for it and wont have these kinds of threads pop up.

 

Is a tank assassin better at carrying the ball than a jugg or guardian? yes but so is a sorc.

 

Holding a point by yourself in alderaan? i say a draw between juggs and assassins and guardians, and pt's. You can hold it long enough to type inc west!! thats for sure between all the tank specs.

 

So whats the problem again? Huttball right? So what your not the best at carrying the ball but your alot better at pursuit of the ball carrier to stop them from scoring. you can leap all over the place all i can do is pull and I gotta make that pull count. I dont get a refresh of my pull, or my force speed from any ability. Juggs get refresh from push.

[Rasheth]

No, I won't be considering I am a PT, the only two trees worth anything in PvP are Pyro and Advanced Prototype. Every single PT I have come across who runs Tanking in PvP is a joke compared to the people who run the other trees.

 

As a pyro I was able to out DPS both a PT tank and his healer on guard and kill them both while the PT tank did very little damage.(We were all in champ gear).

 

PT is good with damage but you're confusing damage builds with tanking builds, tanking PTs cant put up near the numbers tank sins/shadows can.

 

 

So why are you comparing a PT and a assassin in vacuum?

 

Let me try this.

 

OMG I hate fighting snipers up on the top railing in huttball they put that shield thing down and i can't pull them, I can't knock them back. I have no gap closer. Why cant I leap up to them ***!! They just can pot shot me until I get close ***!!

 

Speaking of which I know juggs have a ability that I cant use pull on them not sure what its called but I know I have tried it and it doesnt work. I think its op.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Rasheth

[Rilok_Singz]

Not true

I play infiltration spec and have very little problem with survivabililty

 

being guarded at all times and having at least 2 healers at all times doesnt count

[Xenocdier]

being guarded at all times and having at least 2 healers at all times doesnt count

 

that would be awesome if I had that but I don't 90% of the time

[Aethyrprime]

No, I won't be considering I am a PT, the only two trees worth anything in PvP are Pyro and Advanced Prototype. Every single PT I have come across who runs Tanking in PvP is a joke compared to the people who run the other trees.

 

As a pyro I was able to out DPS both a PT tank and his healer on guard and kill them both while the PT tank did very little damage.(We were all in champ gear).

 

PT is good with damage but you're confusing damage builds with tanking builds, tanking PTs cant put up near the numbers tank sins/shadows can.

 

Ok, I'll change what I said then to fit "YOU". When YOU learn to gear and play properly you will be laughing at the Assassin Tank that can't even scratch you before being forced to retreat in to stealth and pray you don't know how to pop them out so they can go hide in a corner, get out of combat and hope to heal up or find a pvp heal buff spawn.

 

If you are wearing tank gear in pvp you are doing it wrong. The only PTs with poor damage in PvP are wearing TANK GEAR!

 

The fundamental flaw in this entire thread is comparing DPS Geared Assassin Tanks to TANK Geared <other> Tanks.

[XCyndre]

Then you fight bads.

 

This is so true

Edited March 17, 2012 by XCyndre

[XCyndre]

Whilst I know you aren't the brightest, I'd just like to point out for clarification (for those who have issues reading) I knew sages were getting nerfed and can appreciate the decisions behind it. That isn't the point on my post.

 

Awww is your argument so weak you need to rely on Ad hominem attacks? Do you need me to get you the definition of that?

Sadly your argument fails purely because you are living in a fantasy world and seem to be so bitter at your supposed nerf that you want a little company?

 

I'd get into further details but you seem a little challenged so I don't want to exert you.

 

Toddles!

[exphryl]

The only reason you see assassin tanks outperforming other tank specs is because we learned to ditch the useless absorb/shielding mods and wear dps gear. Other tanks are likely running around in tank gear and thus are subpar for pvp. The smart ones do what the assassins are doing and suddenly they are OP too.

 

This is so far from the truth it's not even funny. Assassin tanks have more tools than Juggs or PTs do in terms of survivability and damage output.

 

The shield tree (PTs) give basically NOTHING in terms of damage other then rocket punch and a broken Ion Gas Cylinder we've yet to get confirmation on from BW (Which if it worked the correct way it would go a long way to helping out the damage in tank builds)

 

I'm not saying nerf one or the other I'm just pointing out the idiocy of this comparison you are making.

Edited March 17, 2012 by exphryl

[Aethyrprime]

This is so far from the truth it's not even funny. Assassin tanks have more tools than Juggs or PTs do in terms of survivability and damage output.

 

I'm not saying nerf one or the other I'm just pointing out the idiocy of this comparison you are making.

Assassin tanks have worse survival tools less dps abilities but more utility. Nothing wrong with that.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Aethyrprime

[exphryl]

Assassin tanks have worse survival tools less dps abilities but more utility. Nothing wrong with that.

 

You have Knockback, Force Shroud, Vanish, Self Uninterruptable Healing (you can get knockbacked / stunned i'm aware), Force Speed. ( i may have missed some)

 

PTs gets. 25% Damage Reduction. 2.5K Health over 10 secs on a 2 min cooldown....

 

EDIT: Most of the PT Survivability is derived off Shielding which is far from optimal in PvP.

Edited March 17, 2012 by exphryl

[Archaar]

I have to say if you nerf the Kinetic tree at all you will break it for PvE. The smart Shadow tanks just realize that if you gear a certain way you can put up great numbers and survive if you play well. Not everyone pulls this off.

 

 

-Lonestar/Dalamar

 

THIS. I've had fights against shadows / sins in mirror spec, sometimes I roll over them easily, other times they put up a good fight. It's down to player skill, a skilled player on a KC Shadow is a force to be reckoned with. Unfortunately, unskilled sorcs/snipers/Tracer spamming mercs etc... can't handle us, so they appear on the forums and call for a nerf.

 

KC Shadows are not hard to figure out and can be countered, good players can counter me, bad players can't.

 

And no Infiltration does not have survivability, that's why most people who want to enjoy their shadow go DPS Tank.