Dracosz Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Due to changes to the Juggernaut skill trees, Juggernauts have had their skill points refunded. Added Crash, a new passive ability granted at level 10 that causes Force Charge to stun the target for 2 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 12 seconds. Added Enraged Defense, a new ability that allows the Juggernaut to spend Rage to lower threat. While active, one point of Rage is spent each time damage is taken to heal the Juggernaut for a small amount. This ability is usable while stunned and is not limited by the global cooldown. Vengeance Deafening Defense is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree. It now increases the Juggernaut's damage reduction while Enraged Defense is active. Rampage now generates 2 points of Rage when it is triggered. Single Saber Mastery is no longer restricted to certain stances. Stagger is now located in Tier 1 of the Vengeance skill tree. Sundering Throw is now located in Tier 6 of the Vengeance skill tree. Immortal Battle Cry is now a 2-point skill that provides the same overall effect. Crushing Blow now generates 50% additional threat. Force Grip is now located in Tier 4 of the skill tree. Force Scream no longer consumes stacks of Revenge while the Battle Cry buff is active. Heavy Handed is now a 1-point skill with a slightly reduced overall effect. Quake is now a 3-point skill that provides the same overall effect. Shield Specialization is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree. Sonic Barrier is now located in Tier 4 of the skill tree. Thrown Gauntlet no longer reduces the cooldown of Threatening Scream and is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree. Rage (Juggernaut) Decimate is now located in Tier 1 of the Rage skill tree. It increases the damage dealt by Smash and Sweeping Slash and reduces the cooldown of Smash. Dominate is now a 3-point skill with the same overall effect. The effect now lasts 20 seconds (up from 15). Force Alacrity has been replaced by Overpower, which allows Vicious Slash critical hits to have a chance to refund 2 points of Rage while the Juggernaut is in Shii-Cho Form. Force Crush's cooldown has been reduced to 18 seconds. Its overall effect is unchanged. Gravity now specifically affects Chilling Scream and Force Crush. Obliterate now immobilizes the target for 1 second. Ravager now increases the damage of Ravage instead of affecting Force Choke. Relentless Fury has been replaced by Empowering Rage. It requires 2 points in Shockwave and causes Enrage to immediately grant 2 stacks of Shockwave per point. Shockwave's buff effects now last 20 seconds (up from 15). Through Passion, a new 2-point skill located in Tier 6, has been added. It reduces the initial activation cost of Enraged Defense by 1 Rage per point. Unbreakable Rage has been removed from the game. Overall the changes seem decent (though I don't think I'll be training crash since I want to avoid setting off stuns. Here are my thoughts: - We got a nice new shiny CD that heals us as we take damage (which is absolutely amazing). - Rage wasn't changed significantly, but now vicious slash has a purpose and obliterate has a snare (woot!)(plus the 3 points in decimate are now in rage so we can put those into immortal and spec for intimidate). - Through Passion sounds awesome for rage juggs - Vengeance got some a shiny in the form of a better rampage (which is probably going to be worth taking over unstoppable) though the change to deafening defense seems like it will hurt it's relative survivability (unless we get the 4% damage reduction AND increased defense *shrug* I have to hit the PTS to see) - Immortal got some early bloat removed which is nice, and a significant threat boost. On the whole, fantastic patch though vengeance seems to have taken a bit of a hit with the deafening defense change and the move of Decimate, it's going to be tough for the spec to keep the 7/34/0 spec (and 7/31/3 doesn't seem that feasible without losing good talents). Rage, on the other hand, got a much needed survivability boost and definitely seems like a nice go-to come patch. Especially since I'll be vicious slashing once more , also, with the change to Relentless fury we'll be able to set up MORE smash bombs. EDIT (3/21/11): Confirmations from the TR: Vengeance: - Deafening Defense is now in Tier 5 of the tree and provides its current effect (4% damage reduction and 15 seconds off of Threatening Scream) - Huddle is gone - The saber throw talent is a T6 talent Immortal: - Relevant math on the shield from scream is on page 19 of this thread (links to the TS forums) Rage: - Decimate is a 2 point talent now Other: - The heal will consume 14 rage over it's duration Still things that have yet to be confirmed: - Crash is automatically trained Edited March 21, 2012 by Dracosz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demanoth Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Ohhh i dont know to go veng or rage after the patch ;p, what will you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapstik Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 still doesn't fixed how gimp there dmg is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdots Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Wow. If that new stun proc on the charge affects resolve, then this is just mega-fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noth Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Won't touch vengeance now. it's just been nerfed. Loss of decimate is a straight dps loss. Nothing added to increase the dps. DoTs still just extra damage and have no other synergy with the tree. Immortal still has massive AoE threat problems. Rage gets everything it needed. New cooldown is nice, I'm just concerned that the rage cast will be too much in the long run. Not only do we have to get hit to heal, we have to spend rage. Passive crash is dumb. It will fill the resolve bar thus be pointless to train. I won't be training it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracosz Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 Rage (imho) is looking to be the only serious contender moving forward for DPS Juggernauts, the loss of decimate hurts overall damage too much and forces you to spec haphazardly. I'll still give it a shot, but it doesn't look all that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demanoth Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Yeah ill give it a shot, im guessing dec and ravager will be picked up with free scream for a veng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsexy Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Rampant speculation helps nothing, I'd like to wait a see a bit and test on the PTS myself, but the rage changes seem amazing personally. As for the person saying we do low damage, well I have no idea what game you've been playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demanoth Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Agreed ill wait till the patch hit and do some wz before making up my mind. But so far on paper jeej 4 rage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fragerella Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 14/27 Tank spec basically gets patched out, whilst maintaing the fact that immortal is a rather crappy talent tree, especially with regards to aoe threat and dmg (in comparision with assassins for e.g). Mitigation is and was ok enough, no changes here. Jugger DMG still gimped, all they did was shuffle around some of the talents. In view of the promises that have been made and all the hype around 1.2, these class changes are probably the largest fail since the initial release. I see 0 progress here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demanoth Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 The dps jug dmg was ok to good in my oppinion. Having a heal will help us do more dmg and thus increasing our dmg , or am i seeing it wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyllum Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) the abilities are nice that they added but removing 3 sec reduction is gonna hurt a lot and for rage spec juggs its gonna really hurt out our dps... 12 sec waiting for smash.... stupid Edited March 17, 2012 by Kyllum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InspeckdaDeck Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 AHHHHH Im so excited! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassp Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Were still nowhere near on the level of an assassin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aiwahead Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 14/27 Tank spec basically gets patched out, whilst maintaing the fact that immortal is a rather crappy talent tree, especially with regards to aoe threat and dmg (in comparision with assassins for e.g). Mitigation is and was ok enough, no changes here. Jugger DMG still gimped, all they did was shuffle around some of the talents. In view of the promises that have been made and all the hype around 1.2, these class changes are probably the largest fail since the initial release. I see 0 progress here. Sorry, exactly how does 14/27 get patched out? That actually makes 14/27 even better. Genuinely curious, here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noth Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 The dps jug dmg was ok to good in my oppinion. Having a heal will help us do more dmg and thus increasing our dmg , or am i seeing it wrong It's not a real heal. It will just mitigate some incoming damage at the cost of focus. So in effect it will actually lower our dps while it is running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrackem Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Still nowhere near compared to assassin tanks, I get taunted on a regular basis from assassin tanks, on how much worse my protection and dmg combo is worse than theirs. This nerf to aoe taunt makes things even more annoying. The ninja nerf on single taunt was ok, since single threat generation was easier, so a buff for single threat generation seems like a complete waste. And does no one see the damage reduction this could have on immortal spec'd tanks, with the moving around talents to higher tiers, and more reduction of battle cry points, and increase with quake points; The hint there, is that they want us to spend useless points on a talent most don't use, just to go up a tier. Please make deafening defense a talent in the immortal tree, way to important for a immortal jugg, and useless of meaning to a dps spec'd jugg. PLEASE GIVE THE JUGGS LOVE, nerfing has always been a major killer in mmos, give a new talent or a give better dmg mitigation thats passive, and didn't rely on cd. Because i get really mad that a Marauder gets a can't kill me ability, and a stealth out with a 50% dmg reduction... while a tank jugg drops like a sack of turds, quicker than light armored healing players. Edited March 17, 2012 by Wrackem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demanoth Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 It's not a real heal. It will just mitigate some incoming damage at the cost of focus. So in effect it will actually lower our dps while it is running. True but as a vengeances i usually bath in excess rage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aktiel Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) The "Enraged Defense" sounded good up until I read the fact that it heals you upon being hit but it also lowers threat. While that is cool as additional damage mitigation, I don't like the fact that as a tank, I'll be lowering my threat if I use it. Edited March 17, 2012 by aktiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InspeckdaDeck Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 The "Enraged Defense" sounded good up until I read the fact that it heals you upon being hit but it also lowers threat. While that is cool as additional damage mitigation, I don't like the fact that as a tank, I'll be lowering my threat if I use it. Get out of main hot area, heal up, get back in main melee and threat scream - smash, all your aggro is back. I see a lot of whining in this thread, you boys do know this is the Juggernaut thread right? I mean the thread for sorc/assasin is right over there vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noth Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 True but as a vengeances i usually bath in excess rage takes 4 rage just to activate then a rage a second if you are constantly getting hit. so that is 14 rage over 10 seconds. That is going to mess with your dps even as a vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atzel Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 These changes are just meh... However to be serious i cant say much before testing it myself , but from what i am reading they are not changing much , just switching stuff around. Also that self-heal... this is not 1v1 game and i cant care less about it , i would rather have some kind of damage boost than this - ofc not accessable for smash spike builds , put it tier 4-5 in venguance tree or so. /facepalm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aktiel Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 (edited) Get out of main hot area, heal up, get back in main melee and threat scream - smash, all your aggro is back. I see a lot of whining in this thread, you boys do know this is the Juggernaut thread right? I mean the thread for sorc/assasin is right over there vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Wasn't complaining, just making an observation. Dropping your threat is never a good thing and I know that in WoW if you couldn't maintain threat on a boss that you'd usually get your party killed in heroics or raids, pretty sure the same applies here. While there will be situational uses for the ability for sure, I was merely saying that I was questioning it's use as a tank. Now if the power is a minor initial threat decrease then heals you, then it'll be a simple method of doing Enraged Defense>Taunt. I thought I'd just voice my curiosities about its usefulness. When it comes out we'll know for sure how to properly use it. Edited March 17, 2012 by aktiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noth Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Wasn't complaining, just making an observation. Dropping your threat is never a good thing and I know that in WoW if you couldn't maintain threat on a boss that you'd usually get your party killed in heroics or raids, pretty sure the same applies here. While there will be situational uses for the ability for sure, I was merely saying that I was questioning it's use as a tank. Now if the power is a minor initial threat decrease then heals you, then it'll be a simple method of doing Enraged Defense>Taunt. I thought I'd just voice my curiosities about its usefulness. When it comes out we'll know for sure how to properly use it. It's a moderate decrease in threat on use, then each proc is a small decrease in threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skullbash Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Without seeing the specifics of enraged defense I can't say for sure, but to me this looks like an all around nerf to pvp dps rather than a buff, the loss of force alacrity in particular lowers damage in shii cho form by a lot. Also, marauders have superior smash damage now that they get decimate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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