Dee-Jay Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Ok I'll preface this by saying I don't play a Shadow/Assassin myself but I think the class has got a hell of a lot of utility piled into it. I recall a Shadow: -Pulling me away -AoE Knockback -Invisibility -Brief immunity to tech and force attacks -(self healing - not sure about that) -Guard -Sprint -Powerful burst damage -And then the usual snares and CC most classes have. Not to QQ, but that sounds rather overpowered in my book. How the hell did they end up with so much utility? Edited March 17, 2012 by Dee-Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfectcircle Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Ok I'll preface this by saying I don't play a Shadow/Assassin myself but I think the class has got a hell of a lot of utility piled into it. I recall a Shadow: -Pulling me away -AoE Knockback -Invisibility -Brief immunity to tech and force attacks -(self healing - not sure about that) -Guard -Sprint -Powerful burst damage -And then the usual snares and CC most classes have. Not to QQ, but that sounds rather overpowered in my book. How the hell did they end up with so much utility? Erm.. Everyone gets sprint at lvl 14. Not to mention you're talking about the utility of TWO completely diffrent specs. As far as I know, Shadows cannot do what you're mentioning all at the same time as one spec. Unless you know how to get 31/31/0. They cannot heal others. Even though they sometimes get healing stats from self heals in WZ's ./Close Thread, I have answered your question. Edited March 16, 2012 by Perfectcircle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synacus Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Kill healers which might be the most important thing in the game thats what they can not do. It goes like this. Tank>dps>healer>tank>dps>healer>tank I dunno how much more blance you want then that and thats 1vs 1 which is what EVERYONE seems to want to blance the game around......duels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Ok I'll preface this by saying I don't play a Shadow/Assassin myself but I think the class has got a hell of a lot of utility piled into it. I recall a Shadow: -Pulling me away -AoE Knockback -Invisibility -Brief immunity to tech and force attacks -(self healing - not sure about that) -Guard -Sprint -Powerful burst damage -And then the usual snares and CC most classes have. Not to QQ, but that sounds rather overpowered in my book. How the hell did they end up with so much utility? Well the tank yes has most of what you listed. Our high burst comes from setting up 3 stacks of harnessed shadow/darkness with recklessness and adrenals and relics. Deception has good burst but no self heal, guard or pull. Also look for this class to be "balanced" in 1.2 Edited March 16, 2012 by cycao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Well the tank yes has most of what you listed. Our high burst comes from setting up 3 stacks of harnessed shadow/darkness with recklessness and adrenals and relics. Deception has good burst but no self heal, guard or pull. Also look for this class to be "balanced" in 1.2 Yea it's the tank forms that are the problem right now. They're a bit too strong for what they're supposed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Yea it's the tank forms that are the problem right now. They're a bit too strong for what they're supposed to be. yeah I can admit that with full DPS gear our damage output can be nuts. As of now there really is no reason why not to run the tank spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surgin Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Well the tank yes has most of what you listed. Our high burst comes from setting up 3 stacks of harnessed shadow/darkness with recklessness and adrenals and relics. Deception has good burst but no self heal, guard or pull. Also look for this class to be "balanced" in 1.2 I am looking for it but they better balance deception in the process and by balance I mean buff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I am looking for it but they better balance deception in the process and by balance I mean buff agreed, they said they want to make tanks more tank like. I can see more of a damage debuff while in dark charge (only 5% as of now) and a buff to damage to deception for more sustained DPS right now setting up the procs for shock and discharge can really deplete our force, more sustained would take it more away from relying on this. I think there is no argument that deception is the squishiest class in the game w/o a pocket healer or a guard on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obie_Wan Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 They can't save you 20% on your car insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee-Jay Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 Erm.. Everyone gets sprint at lvl 14. Not to mention you're talking about the utility of TWO completely diffrent specs. As far as I know, Shadows cannot do what you're mentioning all at the same time as one spec. Unless you know how to get 31/31/0. They cannot heal others. Even though they sometimes get healing stats from self heals in WZ's ./Close Thread, I have answered your question. The fact that you think Sprint refers to the level 14 ability is enough to disqualify your opinion. Thanks for posting though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordkhouri Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Erm.. Everyone gets sprint at lvl 14. Not to mention you're talking about the utility of TWO completely diffrent specs. As far as I know, Shadows cannot do what you're mentioning all at the same time as one spec. Unless you know how to get 31/31/0. They cannot heal others. Even though they sometimes get healing stats from self heals in WZ's ./Close Thread, I have answered your question. clearly he was talking about the speed burst and not the lvl 14 sprint. shadow/assassins are definitely extremely useful but i dont know about OP. their tank is hard to kill, but dps suffers greatly. most other classes have about as much utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahhmyface Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 buff deception! yay! cast time debuff! heal debuff! yay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowydeathsin Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 no offence but Deception does not need a buff cuz if we was to have more power in that spec then it would be way to OP for anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anstalt Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Ok I'll preface this by saying I don't play a Shadow/Assassin myself but I think the class has got a hell of a lot of utility piled into it. I recall a Shadow: -Pulling me away -AoE Knockback -Invisibility -Brief immunity to tech and force attacks -(self healing - not sure about that) -Guard -Sprint -Powerful burst damage -And then the usual snares and CC most classes have. Not to QQ, but that sounds rather overpowered in my book. How the hell did they end up with so much utility? Thinking of stuff that is "unique" and not something that all classes have (all classes have defensive cooldowns for example, so ignoring those): Kinetic Combat Shadows can: - Pull - AoE knockback - Stealth - Guard - Steady AoE Damage - Small self-heal - Force Speed - Taunt Kinetic Combat Shadows can't: - Burst - Interupt - Stun lock - Leap - Kill anything that heals itself Infiltration Shadows can: - Stealth - Burst - Perma-snare - Taunt - Force Speed Infiltration Shadows cant: - Interupt - Take damage - Stun lock - Leap - Self Heal I can't really speak for balance shadows as its a spec I don't play, but KC and Inf aren't overpowered. KC shadows may well post massive DPS numbers in a warzone but make no mistake: that comes from spamming Force Slow (low damage AoE on 8s cd) and Force Breach (low damage AoE on 15s CD). It may be big numbers, but it isn't effective numbers. Single target damage from a KC is way below proper DPS classes. A KC shadow wins 1v1s through self-healing, not through damage. In group combat, sure, they have a lot of utility but they wont be the ones killing you, it will be proper DPS classes killing you. As to inf shadows, sure, they can stealth around, sprint and have good, on-demand burst every 75/90 seconds, but they have no AoE and are extremely squishy. A good team will focus the shadow, forcing them to cloak-or-die and removing them from the fight very quickly. Shadows are amazing 1v1 classes where they can control the situation, but in group situations they aren't that great. They either dont have the damage/survivability (kc) or die instantly (inf). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stovokor Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Ok I'll preface this by saying I don't play a Shadow/Assassin myself but I think the class has got a hell of a lot of utility piled into it. I recall a Shadow: -Pulling me away -AoE Knockback -Invisibility -Brief immunity to tech and force attacks -(self healing - not sure about that) -Guard -Sprint -Powerful burst damage -And then the usual snares and CC most classes have. Not to QQ, but that sounds rather overpowered in my book. How the hell did they end up with so much utility? 1. They have high utility but you are referring to some mythical 31 / 31 / 31 spec. Only some spec are able to pull for example. 2. Even spec'ed much of what you list is situational in group play and can be countered as well. Shadow / Assassins are also very susceptible to snares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phuzz Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Ok I'll preface this by saying I don't play a Shadow/Assassin myself but I think the class has got a hell of a lot of utility piled into it. I recall a Shadow: -Pulling me away -AoE Knockback -Invisibility -Brief immunity to tech and force attacks -(self healing - not sure about that) -Guard -Sprint -Powerful burst damage -And then the usual snares and CC most classes have. Not to QQ, but that sounds rather overpowered in my book. How the hell did they end up with so much utility? Pulling me away = Tank tree ability (about 21 points ish into the tree). Other tanks also have this ability if specced. AE knock back = almost every class has one, shadows is the worst. No spec able extras like the sorc root. Also has a silly delay due to animation that renders it fairly useless except for random ae interrupts. Invisibility = only really useful to get the drop as infiltration (dps) spec or hide by objectives as a tank. Tank spec stealth is easily spottable as they generally don't have points into extra stealth levels/speed. Stealth can only be re applied out of combat, unless they pop force cloak which is on a cd. You Can almost always break force cloak by instantly AoEing as soon as they pop it. Also gives a -100% healing received debuff unless specified into infiltration when using force cloak. Brief immunity to force/tech attacks = 3 seconds. 5 seconds if specced halfway up the tank tree. Hardly op. mainly used to cleanse dots when force cloaking as infiltration spec. 1 min cd. Self healing = only as tank spec. 425 every 4.5s if it procs. Telekinetic throw self heals only with 3 stacks of harnessed shadows for around 10% hp. Can be stopped with a knock back easily. Battle readiness procs a 5/10% self heal if specced as a tank on a 2 min CD. Guard = only in combat stance, which also gives the 425 self heal. Guard is only useful situationally or for looking after healers. You still do the same damage, it just gets split between 2 people. Sprint (force speed) = 2 sec speed boost. Mainly useful for infiltration/balance specs as a gap closer/to escape. Sages also have it. And mirrors. A useful tool, but hardly op. bear in mind all the AE knockdowns, AE blinds and AE roots that other classes have. Great burst = only in infiltration spec. Tank specs only get decent numbers due to living longer/weak AE. Balance is pretty good too. The trade off for infiltration burst is very low survivability (aside from force cloaking and running away). Snares/other cc = AE snare is 31 points in the tank tree. Single target snare is a core ability however only spam able if you spec into infiltration. 1 single target stun on 1 (?) min CD. Mind maze is usable only in stealth, breaks on Dmg and is single target. You will pretty much only ever see force lift used by balance specs as it is garbage in most situations to kinetic/infiltration specs. Spinning kick is a stealth opener for infiltration spec which gives a 2s knockdown. Tank specs can use it without stealth if they spec it. 20-30s CD. Our CC is average when compared to most other classes. Please can people stop adding 31/0/10 spec tanks with 2/31/8 infiltration specs? Shadows don't do it all. Edited March 16, 2012 by Phuzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surgin Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 no offence but Deception does not need a buff cuz if we was to have more power in that spec then it would be way to OP for anyone Brother no one said anything about more power, we are talking about survivability. A deception sin is the squishiest class in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vase Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I fear only a few players and I have no class that i cant beat. Assassin are a joke to my scoundrel I let them get the opener most of the time so I don't have to look for them. Their burst damage is meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaar Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I play a valor rank 70 shadow, some other posters above me have highlighted the reason why KC shadows are not overpowered. The class in this spec is very well balanced actually, like other's have stated other classes have better utility, we don't have the burst people think we have, it's sustained damage and we have *some* survivability. There are other classes at the moment that could be considered overpowered in comparison to shadows, a shadow in the hands of a really good player may seem op, but the same can be said of other classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowydeathsin Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Brother no one said anything about more power, we are talking about survivability. A deception sin is the squishiest class in the game. I get what your saying but you also have to put into it out there that Deception is for damage not survivability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I get what your saying but you also have to put into it out there that Deception is for damage not survivability Then boost the damage to make up for the fact that we get tore up like a wet paper towel because we wear light armor. Not talking like 40% damage increase but something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbizzle Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Erm.. Everyone gets sprint at lvl 14. Not to mention you're talking about the utility of TWO completely diffrent specs. As far as I know, Shadows cannot do what you're mentioning all at the same time as one spec. Unless you know how to get 31/31/0. They cannot heal others. Even though they sometimes get healing stats from self heals in WZ's ./Close Thread, I have answered your question. You havent played against anyone playing this class worth a ****. Because tank spec DPS gear = alot of survivability, all the utility and good burst. And sprint, not the out of combat one bad. He's talking about the in combat force speed. All inquisitors and consulars get it, regardless of AC. And to also edit the OP's post. The immunity to tech kinetic and force damage is also CC immunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yukirshiro Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 The tank spec has much too much burst dps and force speed is too powerful on huttball. Otherwise not too awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 The tank spec has much too much burst dps and force speed is too powerful on huttball. Otherwise not too awful. That burst revolves around 1 ability and the combination of recklessness and adrenals/relics, and can be easily stopped with a stun or knock back. I do think force speed gives us an advantage but not OP, it can be countered with a stun over a fire trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babiegirlla Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Erm.. Everyone gets sprint at lvl 14. Not to mention you're talking about the utility of TWO completely diffrent specs. As far as I know, Shadows cannot do what you're mentioning all at the same time as one spec. Unless you know how to get 31/31/0. They cannot heal others. Even though they sometimes get healing stats from self heals in WZ's ./Close Thread, I have answered your question. wow, you thought he was talking about the passive sprint and not the sprint ability they get... nice job. /facepalm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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