Player vs Player... IS NOT Player vs Air/Avoid

[FadeXF]

I haven't been playing much lately... every now and then I'll log in and remind myself why I dislike SWTOR PVP so much... because there are waaaaay too many abilities in the game that either:

 

1) knock you into fire/acid that not only knock you back, but follow up stun or ability-including slows make sure you are going from 100 to 0 life.

2) knock you off of ledges and completely out of any PVP combat for the majority of play... which also is preventing you from positioning yourself at objectives

3) leaping to avoid any combat at all... jumping 20% of the space of a map every 10seconds

4) pulling.... pulling you into a fire to go from 100 to 0 life.... or pulling team mates ridiculously across the maps... combine this with knock-back from ledges and even when you attempt to prevent the tactic - off the ledge you go

 

In fact... the majority of the time I see this stuff I don't snicker or laugh to myself and go: "Damn, that took some finesse... that took some real skill, strategy, luck and ability... man: that guy is super skilled and managed to counter every ability I had to throw at them." No... rather... I sigh to myself in dismay and log out of the game... because none of those items take any ability or a single iota of skill or brain power to complete... and the combination of factors make it super hard to avoid or prevent. So what's the point? It's not even a human skill factor... it's that SWTOR has these built in game breaking abilities that no one seems to recognize as problematic to the enjoyment of this game! (Not one time have I read a post where a Dev acknowledges all of these items as a flaw with the game.)

 

In fact... the majority of vocalists will flock to this thread and beak/flame their yaps at me... indicating it's ME and MY fault somehow that *I* should be the guy who needs to "learn to play" or whatever... that I guess *I* need to roll a toon that can do the above listed items... even though I have nothing but pure disrespect for the skill-level and disdain of players who take advantage of these flaws.

 

Ya bro - you're soooooo skilled to pull someone 50 feet away into acid... then stun them there... or even don't stun and they will still be at 30% life.... SOOOOOO skill bro to knock a guy out of map objectives and essentially out of any significant combat for however long it takes to clammer back up to that ledge/point. What's that you say? Oh you get to do that again to me in another 20 seconds. That's great.

 

 

 

 

I enter into PLAYER vs PLAYER combat because I want to test my skill level against PLAYERS... I am not there to AVOID any type of PVP altogether through the above list of items... you may as well allow hutball carriers to go stealth with the ball. Honestly... why don't you do that? That is the EXACT SAME LEVEL of player avoidance you currently have in this game... may as well COMPLETE that list of player vs air/avoid.

[Mythicrose]

Sounds like an angry Operative playing Huttball. Please show us on the doll where that nasty Powertech touched you while grappeling you into fire.

[FadeXF]

Sounds like an angry Operative playing Huttball. Please show us on the doll where that nasty Powertech touched you while grappeling you into fire.

 

It doesn't matter.... I have a 50 PT... a 50 Sorc... a 50 Op... a 30 Jug... I could care less what class I am on.... it's not the point. That doesn't take away from any point I'm stating. It's equally "un-fun" weather I'm on a sorc, PT, Op, Jug... whatever character.... going 100 to 0 in 3 seconds without control of your toon... getting knocked off a ledge out of combat/getting avoided out of preventing a cap or score... watching a warrior class leap every 10 seconds 20% of the map avoiding everyone all together...

 

But go ahead and toss out red-herrings into the current topic.

[IcculusX]

these are ALMOST as funny as when dps complain that healers healing is unfair and not real pvp..

 

lolPopcornNomNomNom

[smoontan]

It doesn't matter.... I have a 50 PT... a 50 Sorc... a 50 Op... a 30 Jug... I could care less what class I am on.... it's not the point. That doesn't take away from any point I'm stating. It's equally "un-fun" weather I'm on a sorc, PT, Op, Jug... whatever character.... going 100 to 0 in 3 seconds without control of your toon... getting knocked off a ledge out of combat/getting avoided out of preventing a cap or score... watching a warrior class leap every 10 seconds 20% of the map avoiding everyone all together...

 

But go ahead and toss out red-herrings into the current topic.

 

tbh i think the knockback/pull system is a welcome change... if you get knockedback i to the fire or pulled into the pit cc break?? i usually just save my cc break for those moments

[Trondaddy]

Sounds like you are complaining about some fundamental mechanics of Huttball. The traps are there because they WANT people to be pulled into/over/through them.

 

Same with the different levels of floors. They want you to force charge/leap/grapple/pull up and down the levels. It adds strategy and flavor.

 

I for one think it is a refreshing take on otherwise boring "capture and hold this" PVP types (Alderaan, Arathi Basin, etc...)

 

If you don't like it, don't play it.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Trondaddy

[SurgeonUFO]

So the entirety of PvP is broken because of ledges/fire vents/acid pits on one of the three warzone maps? QQ moar

[anticept]

It doesn't matter.... I have a 50 PT... a 50 Sorc... a 50 Op... a 30 Jug... I could care less what class I am on.... it's not the point. That doesn't take away from any point I'm stating. It's equally "un-fun" weather I'm on a sorc, PT, Op, Jug... whatever character.... going 100 to 0 in 3 seconds without control of your toon... getting knocked off a ledge out of combat/getting avoided out of preventing a cap or score... watching a warrior class leap every 10 seconds 20% of the map avoiding everyone all together...

 

But go ahead and toss out red-herrings into the current topic.

 

All part of the tactics... guess it would be fun just to make a plain white oval zone with spawn points at the end and just kill each other there for 15mins maybe you´d like that or is it still too complex.

[FadeXF]

tbh i think the knockback/pull system is a welcome change... if you get knockedback i to the fire or pulled into the pit cc break?? i usually just save my cc break for those moments

 

I hate it... but you know what though... enough of us are just making our vote count with our pocketbooks. So really: my opinion won't matter much longer anyways...

 

I suppose it wouldn't be so bad if my resolve bar filled up and then I wasn't impacted by stuns, knock backs, slows, pulls... oh wait. I am. On a full assed resolve bar I am still knocked completely off of ledges... so the system itself doesn't even work anyway as intended.

[Organikal]

I haven't been playing much lately... every now and then I'll log in and remind myself why I dislike SWTOR PVP so much... because there are waaaaay too many abilities in the game that either:

 

1) knock you into fire/acid that not only knock you back, but follow up stun or ability-including slows make sure you are going from 100 to 0 life.

2) knock you off of ledges and completely out of any PVP combat for the majority of play... which also is preventing you from positioning yourself at objectives

3) leaping to avoid any combat at all... jumping 20% of the space of a map every 10seconds

4) pulling.... pulling you into a fire to go from 100 to 0 life.... or pulling team mates ridiculously across the maps... combine this with knock-back from ledges and even when you attempt to prevent the tactic - off the ledge you go

 

In fact... the majority of the time I see this stuff I don't snicker or laugh to myself and go: "Damn, that took some finesse... that took some real skill, strategy, luck and ability... man: that guy is super skilled and managed to counter every ability I had to throw at them." No... rather... I sigh to myself in dismay and log out of the game... because none of those items take any ability or a single iota of skill or brain power to complete... and the combination of factors make it super hard to avoid or prevent. So what's the point? It's not even a human skill factor... it's that SWTOR has these built in game breaking abilities that no one seems to recognize as problematic to the enjoyment of this game! (Not one time have I read a post where a Dev acknowledges all of these items as a flaw with the game.)

 

In fact... the majority of vocalists will flock to this thread and beak/flame their yaps at me... indicating it's ME and MY fault somehow that *I* should be the guy who needs to "learn to play" or whatever... that I guess *I* need to roll a toon that can do the above listed items... even though I have nothing but pure disrespect for the skill-level and disdain of players who take advantage of these flaws.

 

Ya bro - you're soooooo skilled to pull someone 50 feet away into acid... then stun them there... or even don't stun and they will still be at 30% life.... SOOOOOO skill bro to knock a guy out of map objectives and essentially out of any significant combat for however long it takes to clammer back up to that ledge/point. What's that you say? Oh you get to do that again to me in another 20 seconds. That's great.

 

 

 

 

I enter into PLAYER vs PLAYER combat because I want to test my skill level against PLAYERS... I am not there to AVOID any type of PVP altogether through the above list of items... you may as well allow hutball carriers to go stealth with the ball. Honestly... why don't you do that? That is the EXACT SAME LEVEL of player avoidance you currently have in this game... may as well COMPLETE that list of player vs air/avoid.

 

This is most def coming from an Operative or Scoundrel. I bet you don't have any issue with knocking a BM geared player from 100 to near death in your stuns though?

 

The tactics used by said classes are used to gain a competitive advantage. Getting grapple/stunned in fire is clever use of both the map and their class abilities. While I get angry when it happens to me it doesn't make me come here and rage. In huttball I never use my stun-remove unless I'm in fire or acid. Try it it works.

 

Stop complaining and look to find a solution. Stop putting yourself in a position where you will get knocked into the pit (put your back to a box, pole, or what have you) and if you see a Vanguard/Powertech standing on the edge of fire LoS them because you can be sure they are lining you up.

 

In short, learn to counter what you dislike, rather than claiming it's broken.

[cbowsin]

I was playing on my Op last night and noticed the frequency I was pulled and knocked into acid and fire. I don't mind it at all because it proves these players couldn't kill me any other way.

[Ozzone]

If you don't like it, don't play it.

 

So he should stop playing WZs?

[MrSteak]

It doesn't matter.... I have a 50 PT... a 50 Sorc... a 50 Op... a 30 Jug... I could care less what class I am on.... it's not the point. That doesn't take away from any point I'm stating. It's equally "un-fun" weather I'm on a sorc, PT, Op, Jug... whatever character.... going 100 to 0 in 3 seconds without control of your toon... getting knocked off a ledge out of combat/getting avoided out of preventing a cap or score... watching a warrior class leap every 10 seconds 20% of the map avoiding everyone all together...

 

But go ahead and toss out red-herrings into the current topic.

 

He's not avoiding anybody, he's leaping straight for them. They need to GTF out of the way, or at least off of the ledge with the goal line.

 

Look, I hate getting pulled into fire/acid as much as the next guy, but I also love getting to DO it as much as the next guy. As an assassin, my pull is on a 45 second cooldown. That's a long wait to pull somebody off a ledge or into a hazard. Couple that with the fact that it simply doesn't work a lot of the time and I don't see what the problem is here. I can't tell you how many times I've used Force Pull only to have it consume the cooldown while the targeted player just continues forward. This is all to say nothing of the conditions necessary for a pull kill. You have to be in just the right position, they have to be in range, for fire you have to make sure it's not about to end, and you have to manage to not get assaulted or pulled yourself.

[Makayla]

Someone complaining that PVP isn't solely about smacking each other stuff over the head and in the same post claiming that having to think and consider your surrounding is NOT about skill?

Another post that boggles my mind. So "skill" is exclusively about who manages to mash the buttons faster in a way that makes sense instead of using your brain?

 

I hereby confess to be as skillless as one can be due to my actually liking to outsmart people that might crush me in a stupid head-on 1 on 1.

 

No, skill SHOULD be at least as much about using your brain as it should be about reflexes. One of several things that make a chance from RPG PVP and FPS. Sadly many MMOs fail there but TOR made a few little steps into the right direction there in my eyes.

[Trondaddy]

So he should stop playing WZs?

 

Do you read or just quote out of context? My post was about Huttball.

 

And yes, he should stop playing Huttball because clearly he is too terribad to learn to counter fundamental mechanics of the game, and I don't want him on my team.

[FadeXF]

All part of the tactics... guess it would be fun just to make a plain white oval zone with spawn points at the end and just kill each other there for 15mins maybe you´d like that or is it still too complex.

 

"complex" ... I hope you understand the irony here.... because it's sooooo complex to pull someone into fire/acid or knock multiple people from ledges with an instant ability that takes zero skill to do... ummmmmmm.... not flaming you, I promise... but come on.

 

 

I'm 100% sure there is a healthy balance between having these components on the map, and still allowing people abilities to "get away" from others (which is the INTENTION of knock-back abilities - NOT to use it OFFENSIVELY the way it is currently used as the 'MUST HAVE GO TO' crutch ability)... and the pull abilities are PVE abilities "meant" for Sorcs to pull a DPS out of PVE situations... the PT pull is meant as an initiator or to pull mobs off healers... these are abilities who'se INITIAL intentions were not "meant" for PVP usage.

 

So... tweaking them slightly... yet keeping the maps the same would be awesome. I don't mind if the knock-back "stuns" me for 1.5 seconds (for example) as opposed to hitting me off a ledge and out of meaningful combat for 30-45 seconds OR MORE sometimes.

 

Having the PT "pull" act as a stun or inturupt in PVP situations.... as another example.

 

I don't even care that when ***I*** enter into a fire trap MYSELF and you stun me there? That at least takes some miniscule amount of timing and effort... so keep that in the way it already is.

[Appletaz]

The OP is right, you know. Sometimes I come out of Huttball, particularly, feeling battered. The CCs in this game are over the top. Yes, of course, I use them as well, but I can tell you I think that there are WAY too many of them.

 

I can be stunned, stunned again, frozen, then rooted, slowed again, then stunned. Perhaps that may fill up that resolve bar, but that is not protecting me. All it does is mean I can't be CC'd again, meanwhile the damage I am assailed with most likely produces my death. (I think the only thing that would make this completely intolerable would be if there were death penalties. It is the only saving grace.)

 

And that you can be damaged when you are disabled by them is the biggest problem, imo. And the release skill should be as instant as the CC skills are. That way you are slowed down a little but not totally disabled and helpless.

 

And since so many classes have multiple CCs and they can be cast over and over, and then there are other classes that have very few, the PvP becomes unbalanced and all it really is is a contest about who can out-CC the other. Yes, things can be counter-balanced by the use of stims and similar tactics, but generally it is simply a CC fest -- which is not really PvP, or uniquely SWTOR PvP. Because once you are disabled and made helpless your enemy can invariable damage you to death.

 

Change the resolve system to also protect you from damage.

Limit the number of CCs that can be used before the bar is full and/or lengthen the protection when it is full.

Make the release skill instant or maybe a 5-second cooldown.

OR reduce the number of CC skills this game has that can be used in PvP or increase their cooldowns.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Appletaz

[Organikal]

"complex" ... I hope you understand the irony here.... because it's sooooo complex to pull someone into fire/acid or knock multiple people from ledges with an instant ability that takes zero skill to do... ummmmmmm.... not flaming you, I promise... but come on.

 

 

I'm 100% sure there is a healthy balance between having these components on the map, and still allowing people abilities to "get away" from others (which is the INTENTION of knock-back abilities - NOT to use it OFFENSIVELY the way it is currently used as the 'MUST HAVE GO TO' crutch ability)... and the pull abilities are PVE abilities "meant" for Sorcs to pull a DPS out of PVE situations... the PT pull is meant as an initiator or to pull mobs off healers... these are abilities who'se INITIAL intentions were not "meant" for PVP usage.

 

So... tweaking them slightly... yet keeping the maps the same would be awesome. I don't mind if the knock-back "stuns" me for 1.5 seconds (for example) as opposed to hitting me off a ledge and out of meaningful combat for 30-45 seconds OR MORE sometimes.

 

Having the PT "pull" act as a stun or inturupt in PVP situations.... as another example.

 

I don't even care that when ***I*** enter into a fire trap MYSELF and you stun me there? That at least takes some miniscule amount of timing and effort... so keep that in the way it already is.

 

Show me in an official post where knockbacks are designed as a defensive ability.

 

Sorc pull if for PvE to pull someone out of fire? Is that on the tooltip? I'm sure it reads "Use this while slaying dragons to help your idiot raid member move from the big fire pit in which he stands"

 

I hope you're trolling about this because if you're serious I REALLY need to get some of dat kush you have.

[Luckorforever]

I have not been kicked into fire for a long time, allways close to it, but not into ... guess it needs a little bit of skill to do that. Vanish during a fight doesnt need skill mr. Operative.

[Jesmcalli]

I have to laugh when all the people come in and say "Oh, well you're a noob for not being aware of your positioning". I'm sorry, but if you're say, a melee class, trying to kill/hinder the ball carrier, you have to be pretty much right there. No amount of positioning is going to save you when 2-3 people have knockbacks, another 1-2 have pulls/pushes, and all of them have some sort of stun/incap. Positioning is fine when you're dealing with one person. However, dealing with that Sorc/Sage or Sin/Shadow, plus their Van/PT buddy across the way waiting to jerk you into a fire/acid pit, isn't really feasible. Unless you're going to spend 75% of the match humping pillars.

[Numerii]

You're right, pulling off these tactics takes very little skill. Avoiding them in the first place, however, does take skill, or at the very least situational awareness and positioning.

 

Yes, some tactics, like grappling someone into the acid pits, are impossible to avoid. However, you should be expecting these things, they are nothing new. Knowing whether or not your CC break is available, and if so, using it immediately to get out of the acid is your counter.

 

If your CC break is not available, accept the death and try to pass the ball, if you are currently in possession of it. Congratulations, one less move the enemy team can use to stop your team from scoring.

 

I rather enjoy the chaotic style of PvP we currently have. If we didn't have all these fun abilities then we'd be reduced to whichever team has more gear, or more healers, and then there would be another subset of gamers complaining about that issue.

[FadeXF]

Show me in an official post where knockbacks are designed as a defensive ability.

 

Sorc pull if for PvE to pull someone out of fire? Is that on the tooltip? I'm sure it reads "Use this while slaying dragons to help your idiot raid member move from the big fire pit in which he stands"

 

I hope you're trolling about this because if you're serious I REALLY need to get some of dat kush you have.

 

 

Ok ok - you got me... I'm obviously not going to find anything official... I guess from a rational standpoint and the progression of MMOs in general from past to now... experience tells me the intention of those abilities.... event warrior "leaps" are really initially designed around PVE objectives like jumping ahead of your group to lay down a bit of agro before your group can react... for example.

 

It makes a lot of sense that the sorc "knock back" splashing OUTWARDS is meant defensively considering their AOE abilities require mobs to be significantly "clumped" up... so it makes NO SENSE AT ALL to have the sorc run up to a clump of mobs... hit knock back spraying mobs AWAY from the center point/out of AOE damage they would dish out. Actually.... if you've played a sorc you know you would hit your shield... run up... AOE damage and it's very effective. Using your knock backs to hit tougher mobs away from you + slowing them to allow you to kite them. Several of the class quests you cannot complete without doing that.

 

Same with the Sorc pull ability... I believe it was haphazard that this pull ability became significant in Huttball.... I don't believe the initial intention of the ability was "hey - lets make a spell that pulls huttball players to them... " "what's huttball?" "oh - don't worry... it hasn't even been blueprinted yet" - like come on. Use some common sense, guy.

 

Playing a PT I can also tell you that the "pull" is designed as an initiator... pulling LOS mobs for example... or allowing you to better position mobs in a "clump" for AOE... or pulling them off group mates.

[Numerii]

I have to laugh when all the people come in and say "Oh, well you're a noob for not being aware of your positioning". I'm sorry, but if you're say, a melee class, trying to kill/hinder the ball carrier, you have to be pretty much right there. No amount of positioning is going to save you when 2-3 people have knockbacks, another 1-2 have pulls/pushes, and all of them have some sort of stun/incap. Positioning is fine when you're dealing with one person. However, dealing with that Sorc/Sage or Sin/Shadow, plus their Van/PT buddy across the way waiting to jerk you into a fire/acid pit, isn't really feasible. Unless you're going to spend 75% of the match humping pillars.

 

You just described a 1v2, why do you feel you should be on equal ground in that situation?

 

Sometimes, you have to accept that you are on a team, and as such, you are reliant on other people to help you succeed. If two people are using knockbacks/pulls on you then your 1 person just forced 2 abilities from the enemy. I'd say you did your team well in that trade-off, now it's their turn to capitalize on it. If they can't, you're on a bad team, or the other team is simply better. Get over it, it happens.

[FluxWing]

imho it adds flavor to pvp. I hate the void star WZ, because it's just a big brawl fest, with little to no tactics. Stand on top of your target and pull off a PvE raid dps rotation, until either you or they die...repeat that for 15 min.

 

Hutball with enviromental hazzards and ledges is to me the the most dynamic pvp map in this game, that uses all 3 dimensions well.

 

Although, some melee ACs are punished a bit too hard getting knocked down in to the pit.

DPS Shadows/Scoundrels or their mirrors are unable to rejoin the battle for over 30 seconds, which to me is a little too harsh.

 

 

The best pvp spot is imho, is the stairways in the Alderaan map on the central node.

2 levels and lots of pillars makes it alot of fun to chase or be chased around.

 

And I wish there were more "interference" in the current regular stale pvp model. Then the best class would not be determined only by their classes damage output, but also their ability to navigate the surroundings.

 

Think about the fight beween Anakin and Obi-wan in episode 3. It's not only a lightsaber duel, it is also an avoid getting caught in the lava plattform game. Although "having the high gound" needs to be nerfed in that movie

[Umpire]

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