PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Blloodbane]

I'm curious about what exactly you think will happen when ranked warzones are introduced. You really think people aren't going to pick and choose who they group with in premade OPs for those?

 

Cause I certainly don't expect they'll just going in randomly with whoever types /join.

 

I can see the pre-made WZ ops being selective.... so /join wouldnt apply anyway

 

A. PVP is not for everyone, PVE is, gameplay wise.

B. Its a Team competition, so i understand and expect being selective here.

C. Most likely those that are new or suck will either being doing the random matches or joining friends and learning and getting advice from players and getting experience in PVP.

D. If they had player rankings for PVE that might be interesting but actual DPS numbers should be hidden...

Edited March 15, 2012 by Blloodbane

[Blloodbane]

again, its not the log that said this. A person is saying this. People are the problem. Not logs.

 

Thats just like saying "guns dont kill people, people kill people" but yet not everyone can carry a gun.

 

Unless they can give combat log permits (which they would never do) and restrict logs to those that dont abuse them and ban the ones that do, the only real solution gaming wise is not to have them in the first place.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Blloodbane

[Stupiddrummer]

Thats just like saying "guns dont kill people, people kill people" but yet not everyone can carry a gun.

 

Unless they can give combat log permits (which they would never do) and restrict logs to those that dont abuse them and ban the ones that do, the only real solution gaming wise is not to have them in the first place.

 

it is just like saying that. Which is why i dont understand what you arent getting.

 

but with guns people die. With combat logs...? at worst you could get your feelings hurt.

[DaxRendar]

So we take away the tools from everyone? Even the people that will use it responsibly and for the good of the community? that hardly seems fair. Let a few bad apples ruin it for the rest. Are you that willing to give into jerk players?

 

Actually, allowing Group Logs and especially Real-Time Meters is giving in to the jerk players.

 

They are, after all, the ones who want it for cyber-bullying, for inane "in-group" competition, and to dictate to others how they should play the game even when content is being cleared and nobody is dying.

 

People interested in responsible usage, like improving their own performance, working with a group to determine what went wrong in an encounter, assisting others who ask for help - all of that is imminently possible with Personal Sharable Logs.

 

That's the crux of the debate in this thread. You want a more convenient tool that has often been misused and abused by a noticeable number of players (with plenty of self-documented examples of said players in their own words in this thread) while we still want you to have Tools to meet your needs but not at the expense of the community.

Edited March 15, 2012 by DaxRendar

[Blloodbane]

it is just like saying that. Which is why i dont understand what you arent getting.

 

but with guns people die. With combat logs...? at worst you could get your feelings hurt.

 

Nope, its about being prejudeced without know the person behind the character at all before they are giving the player themselves a chance.

[Stupiddrummer]

Nope, its about being prejudeced without know the person behind the character at all before they are giving the player themselves a chance.

 

Look, ever since the beginning of online games, there have been griefing jerks. I got xbox live the very first day it came out. Even then, in the very beginning of mainstream online voice chat in gaming, people would cuss you out for no reason. It's not like everyone did. It's just what anonymity does to people.

 

In the gaming world, MMOs are a rare breed. Because of persistent gaming, it actually gets to the point where you have to maintain your reputation in the community. This is where ninjaing/ninjas originated. If someone on a server kept ninjaing from groups, word would spread, and that ninja would become a notorious ninja (and people would avoid/chastise this person).

 

So, MMOs are one of the few games where social justice not only exists, but is a very important factor in interacting with the community.

 

IMO, if you're worried about griefers and jerks, they arent going to come from combat logs. They will come from cross server PvP/LFG (where your reputation doesn't matter).

Edited March 15, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[DarthKhaos]

First, you don't know if everyone is improving personally unless u can see the overall group improvements. If the group is flailing and you ask everyone "are you doing what you need to do?" They will just say, "yeah we checked our logs and they look fine." Then you'll have to set up a website for them to individually upload their logs, write a parser that can correlate all those logs and try to figure a way to spot the guy who injects false data into the log. This takes a lot more time and effort than each person having a single log they can parse and crosscheck against the results that at least one other person in the raid has. Instead of 8 people all figuring out how to work a parser, you just need one or two.

 

Second, logs are not useless for improving teamwork. I'm not sure how you can make that assertion.

Just as it should be. Theory crafting and analyzing of data should be done after.

[bhouse]

Anti-meter people are anti-group.

 

Here's why.

 

If you like to go to the batting cages, you have every right to swing the bat however you want or you could even just bunt the ball on every pitch the machine throws at you. Do you know why? Because it's a single player activity.

 

The second you join a team, recreational or not, the players on the team have every right to keep track of your stats, critique you, judge you, and ultimately decide if you are going to be a starter or someone that rides the pine. Do you know why that is? Because your performance effects the team.

 

This is something they fail to realize. In team sports or team games, your performance matters to every person in the group. When you join a team, unless every person in that team is your friend, you have no right to tell them they are not allowed to keep track of your stats. YOU decided to join a TEAM activity where YOUR performance matters. If you don't like having others judge your performance on... your actual performance, then stick to single player games or exclusively play with your group of friends. Because as soon as you join a pug or a raid where everyone isn't your friend, then your performance is on display whether you like it or not.

 

QFT

 

5char

[lollermittens]

Actually, allowing Group Logs and especially Real-Time Meters is giving into the jerk players.

 

They are, after all, the ones who want it for cyber-bullying, for inane "in-group" competition, and to dictate to others how they should play the game even when content is being cleared and nobody is dying.

 

People interested in responsible usage, like improving their own performance, working with a group to determine what went wrong in an encounter, assisting others who ask for help - all of that is imminently possible with Personal Sharable Logs.

 

That's the crux of the debate in this thread. You want a more convenient tool that has often been misused and abused by a noticeable number of players (with plenty of self-documented examples of said players in their own words in this thread) while we still want you to have Tools to meet your needs but not at the expense of the community.

 

Self-documented as in unverifiable/baseless claims.

 

Moreover, the naysayers (just like in the macro debate) are confusing a combat log = DPS meter. It is extremely difficult to gauge other players' performance by simply looking at a combat log. You can make such judgement if you have played the class that player is playing and you have inspected his/her gear and then realized they're not performing optimally. This kind of nonsense is already happening without combat logs.

 

Again, combat logs != metric/stats meters. Stop using this as a defense against a comprehensive combat log.

[Snoodmaster]

I can see the pre-made WZ ops being selective.... so /join wouldnt apply anyway

 

A. PVP is not for everyone, PVE is, gameplay wise.

 

OPs, especially hardmode ops, are NOT for everyone. If they were, there wouldn't be any gear checks and you'd get your rewards regardless of the boss dying.

 

B. Its a Team competition, so i understand and expect being selective here.

 

And Operations also involve the equivalent of a premade team. Why should that team be selective but another team should? Because to succeed one team has to defeat other players but the other team has to defeat the boss?

 

C. Most likely those that are new or suck will either being doing the random matches or joining friends and learning and getting advice from players and getting experience in PVP.

 

And players that are new in PvE can do daily quests, normal flashpoints and hardmode flashpoints to gain advice and experience.

 

D. If they had player rankings for PVE that might be interesting but actual DPS numbers should be hidden...

 

Personally, I think a ranking system would be much much worse than the actual DPS numbers since any ranking system ends up being somewhat subjective, but the hard data is itself clear and unbiased.

[bhouse]

I'll post this again.

 

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/02/02/ol-grumpy-and-the-specter-of-pointless-elitism/5

 

I think it's quite relevant, to the ongoing discussion...

 

 

Even the guy writing that article is in favor of combat logs/dps meters

 

" 1. If the group is clearing the content, the DPS meter is completely irrelevant for a 5-man.

DPS meters (especially ones with parsing that can tell you more than just raw numbers) are useful for raiding and can even be invaluable in determining what's going on in a boss attempt. Using them to mock and belittle strangers you just met in a 5-man is not their intended use, nor is it a good use of them. Share it with your friends -- use it to feel quietly smug about how awesome you are all you like -- but don't bring it up in party. If people want to see how amazing your DPS is, they can consult their own meters.

 

3. It makes the specific times when DPS matters harder to emphasize.

If the group can't kill Murozond because everyone is doing lower DPS than is necessary (and that would mean really poor use of the Hourglass), then I need to be able to tell them this."

Edited March 15, 2012 by bhouse

[bhouse]

So in reading these posts and the others in other MMO's I'm seeing 2 schools of thought.

 

A. I want to play my way, and don't want you given tools to dictate what way that should be.

 

B. I want to Maximize my and my groups capabilities and want the tools to allow myself to do so.

 

Now, both groups are trying to dictate what the other is allowed to do, (Wanting to prevent people from having tools that can be abused is the same as wanting others to change playstyles to match your needs, they are both limiting others gamepley). That being said, there are individuals of both school of thought who are outright stating they don't care what YOU do, they do/don't want these changes for their own gameplay.

 

What I don't understand is the need for the bickering outside of trolling. As I see it, it comes down to a few basic things.

 

1. Logs can help a player finetune themselves.

2. Logs can be used to make runs/guilds exclusive and all the "evils" those contain.

3. Logs can lead to min/maxing requirements.

4. Logs can let people see where mistakes happened.

5. Logs can show you why you/someone died

 

1.) I don't appreciate someone coming up with reasons why I would not be allowed to finetune myself. I understand that the reasons are because someone wants to protect their gameplay choice, But why should I be 100% limited by not having logs when you MIGHT be limited by having logs.

2.) Exclusivety happens. If it's not over logs, it's over "preferred specs" because of their other offerings, (instant cast cc, bloodlust, etc.) or any number of other things. Where competition exists, there exists elitists. Where elitists exist, there exists exclusivity. Trying to stop it is like prohibition. And even the US government gave up on that one. Basicly, Logs don't create exclusivety, people do. Logs are simply one concrete tool people can point to and say, "they use this!".

3.) DO you honestly think that lack of logs stops the min/maxers from finding other ways to try and min/max? Or will stop them from coming up with requirements? The "it makes it easier" argument is exactly that, an argument. Not a debate. They do it already, they will continue to do it, arguing to prevent it just leads to frustration on both parts and won't stop human nature.

4.) NO ONE likes to have it pointed out when they screw up. The min/maxers don't like it anymore then the "play it my way" crowd. But it is necessary to find out where the problem happened to prevent it from happening again. Right now we do that from visual queues. That method is flawed. The log method is better.

5.) I'd like to know why I died. The mysterious die on rez bugs, Thinking I died from swipe, but finding out it was something else allows me to adjust myself for the proper danger.

 

"guns don't kill people, people kill people" The truth of the matter is Bioware will make their decision based on how they see it affecting the community as a whole. I agree whole heartedly in not having another WOW. I played my preferred spec in WOW because I wanted too, was still able to keep up with the dps and never limited my groups. They had no issues with me. Other people did not have it so easy. I get that and don't want it repeated. But WOW went to a min/maxers dream in burning crusade and kept it up. The game encouraged that approach and targetted the endgamers and pvp'ers as a main audience. Blizzard cultivated the mentality that so many are against now. Bioware already isn't doing that. Are logs a tool that can be used to recreate that hell? Yes. And screwdrivers can be used in assembling bombs, doesn't mean no one should have one. It's really going to come down to the communities we nurture on our own servers, and how it will affect them. I agree that the abuses of logs can be used to make the community feel hostile in some cases, or create the pressure to confirm to the norm. But in all these it starts with "Logs can be used", NOT "Logs make ____ happen". Don't attack the gun over a shooting, look to the gunman.

 

I agree

[Blloodbane]

 

So, MMOs are one of the few games where social justice not only exists, but is a very important factor in interacting with the community.

 

This is assuming there IS a community, its not like the EQ days where grouping and working together was all but mandatory.

 

I am a long time player, some call me power gamer or a min/maxer some just call me player some call me expletives which is all subjective. I do consider myself a somewhat experienced and good game player of MMO's. I use to be apart of all the top stuff and gear scores and parsing and logging and blah blah blah... I been in groups where there group leader would invite someone look at what ever they used at the time and like just as the other person is saying "Hi" *BOOT*, I seen in it TOR already and seen advertise "Gear check required"

 

Now you want to say it wouldnt get worse? Really?

 

We as MMO players as a whole have lost our way on what it means to be a community (and the reprecussions for being a tool) and how to socialize and the games encouraged it more with the relative ease of solo play to level cap.

[DaxRendar]

Self-documented as in unverifiable/baseless claims.

 

Moreover, the naysayers (just like in the macro debate) are confusing a combat log = DPS meter. It is extremely difficult to gauge other players' performance by simply looking at a combat log. You can make such judgement if you have played the class that player is playing and you have inspected his/her gear and then realized they're not performing optimally. This kind of nonsense is already happening without combat logs.

 

Again, combat logs != metric/stats meters. Stop using this as a defense against a comprehensive combat log.

 

Way to miss the point x2

 

I'm referring to the number of posts in this thread with people saying they can't wait for Logs/Meters so they can finally "kick baddies" and "stop carrying" people even on runs where everything is being one-shot and nobody is dying. They documented their own behavior for us. Unless you think all those "Pro-Meter" people are actually "Anti-Meter Trolls" do you? (prepares tinfoil hat to pass over)

 

And no we aren't confusing Logs and Meters. Within weeks (if not days) of 1.2 going live there will be a working version of ACT for this game parsing the Logs in real-time with an overlay that can be run. The only thing we don't know yet is if it'll only be parsing personal data or the entire group and we'll know that as soon as 1.2 hits the Test Server.

 

Don't deny it. RIFT worked exactly that way with only a Log and No Meters. And as soon as the Overlay was working, the flaming started...

[Snoodmaster]

Just as it should be. Theory crafting and analyzing of data should be done after.

 

Maybe I'm misreading you, but when I read that, what that implies to me is "I want it to be too difficult for people who form groups with a preferred analytical playstyle to do any meaningful analysis of raid performance in order for people with a different playstyle to be accepted in their groups."

 

I say that because my earlier post was intended to show that a "personal only" log system would make it much harder for a group who prefers to use combat logs to compile and correlate their analysis while not affecting at all a group who does not use combat logs. Meanwhile, it also allows someone who of a less hardcore mindset who just wants to pew-pew without caring about his performance to join a group who IS more hardcore and cares about standards of performance. On the other hand, a "public" log system would not affect in the least the ability of a "no logs" group to form and play and remove people who post logs, while it WOULD prevent the pew-pew guy from sneaking into a more hardcore group.

[Kapono]

Just as it should be. Theory crafting and analyzing of data should be done after.

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, theorycrafting and combat data analysis is the realm of people with way too much time on their hands.

 

Keep combat logs out of the game, please and thanks. It's a game - not a sport, and certainly not a job.

 

[Stupiddrummer]

This is assuming there IS a community, its not like the EQ days where grouping and working together was all but mandatory.

 

I am a long time player, some call me power gamer or a min/maxer some just call me player some call me expletives which is all subjective. I do consider myself a somewhat experienced and good game player of MMO's. I use to be apart of all the top stuff and gear scores and parsing and logging and blah blah blah... I been in groups where there group leader would invite someone look at what ever they used at the time and like just as the other person is saying "Hi" *BOOT*, I seen in it TOR already and seen advertise "Gear check required"

 

Now you want to say it wouldnt get worse? Really?

 

We as MMO players as a whole have lost our way on what it means to be a community (and the reprecussions for being a tool) and how to socialize and the games encouraged it more with the relative ease of solo play to level cap.

 

Everyone i've met in the game is decent people. I expect they would be mature enough to handle numbers. I mena, how many people in WoW do you think were actually interested in Warcraft? Compared to how many people that play Star Wars are actually interested in Star Wars? I'd argue the SWTOR community is at an advantage because we all share the common ground - a love of star wars.

 

Jerk players are going to come up with whatever way they can to exclude people (just like you said with the gear check). I would rather their reasoning be grounded in empirical evidence, rather than unproven theories (like, melee dps is worst than range).

[bhouse]

As far as I'm concerned, theorycrafting and combat data analysis is the realm of people with way too much time on their hands.

 

Keep combat logs out of the game, please and thanks. It's a game - not a sport, and certainly not a job.

 

 

arent sports just games?

how would a combat log make the game like a job?

 

You guys do realize that if this is implemented, you NEVER have to look at it or even concern yourselves with it?

Edited March 15, 2012 by bhouse

[bhouse]

I just looked at curse.com and out of the 5,000 addons they carry for WoW, the 4th MOST downloaded addon is recount. It has a total of 29.7 million downloads and monthly it gets about 375,000 downloads.

The other combat log parser is skada and it is rank 12 out of 5,000 with 3.7 million downloads and approximately 177,000 downloads a month.

 

It would seem that a lot of people do in fact find it useful to have the information provided by the combat log. I realize it is a completely different game but it is the same type of game with similar mechanics and I would guess that it has many of the same players.

Edited March 15, 2012 by bhouse

[DaxRendar]

You guys do realize that if this is implemented, you NEVER have to look at it or even concern yourselves with it?

 

While that poster might not be clear on the state of things, most of us know that Logs are coming.

 

His reference is to the number of people in [that other game] that took on the role of Raid Leader for their Guild and immediately set about trying to create "the perfect Raid in his image" with EJ Links, Bossfight YouTube Links, and detailed Spec/Build Requirements that people had to adopt or get kicked from the Raid.

 

Understand before you flame, there was a time I was that Raid Leader. Many of those things are, in fact, useful for both bettering your performance and increasing the chance of success in Raids.

 

There are two "problems" with this though that relate to that other poster's feeling of it "becoming a job" rather than a game:

1) Not everybody has the time or interest in min-maxing every aspect of their play

2) Most Raids simply don't even require that level of effort or performance to complete successfully

 

If you are a "min-maxer" by nature it's sometimes hard to appreciate that not everybody is interested in "world best marathon times" and merely being able to run, jog, or even walk one is enough for them.

 

Without Meters or Logs, it's a lot harder for min-maxers to "impose their will" on both groups and the game as a whole. Some of what they do is very beneficial to everyone (like identifying Abilities that don't work correctly), some helpful to those interested in it, and some actually detrimental to the game (min-maxing to the extent of identifying and then requiring "Scorch Bi%^hes" on Raids even when not working on progression).

 

Personal Only Logs are a pretty nice compromise. The "Elitest Jerks" will finally have actual meaningful numbers to crunch. Groups that want or need to do detailed analysis on their performance (either solo or in a group) will be able to. It will be much harder for elitest griefers to impose their will on PUGs though.

[bhouse]

While that poster might not be clear on the state of things, most of us know that Logs are coming.

 

His reference is to the number of people in [that other game] that took on the role of Raid Leader for their Guild and immediately set about trying to create "the perfect Raid in his image" with EJ Links, Bossfight YouTube Links, and detailed Spec/Build Requirements that people had to adopt or get kicked from the Raid.

 

Understand before you flame, there was a time I was that Raid Leader. Many of those things are, in fact, useful for both bettering your performance and increasing the chance of success in Raids.

 

There are two "problems" with this though that relate to that other poster's feeling of it "becoming a job" rather than a game:

1) Not everybody has the time or interest in min-maxing every aspect of their play

2) Most Raids simply don't even require that level of effort or performance to complete successfully

 

If you are a "min-maxer" by nature it's sometimes hard to appreciate that not everybody is interested in "world best marathon times" and merely being able to run, jog, or even walk one is enough for them.

 

Without Meters or Logs, it's a lot harder for min-maxers to "impose their will" on both groups and the game as a whole. Some of what they do is very beneficial to everyone (like identifying Abilities that don't work correctly), some helpful to those interested in it, and some actually detrimental to the game (min-maxing to the extent of identifying and then requiring "Scorch Bi%^hes" on Raids even when not working on progression).

 

Personal Only Logs are a pretty nice compromise. The "Elitest Jerks" will finally have actual meaningful numbers to crunch. Groups that want or need to do detailed analysis on their performance (either solo or in a group) will be able to. It will be much harder for elitest griefers to impose their will on PUGs though.

 

There is no rule that says you have to min-max your play, and you are correct that most raids will not require it. If you come across a group that is demanding these things of you, do you really want to play with them in the first place? I believe that people who will require these things are also the people who are currently doing gear checks. With comprehensive real-time combat logs, nothing changes...these people will demand perfection because that is who they are. If they cant judge based on your damage/healing/whatever they find these other ways (your gear).

 

Edit

In fact gear checking is a lot harsher that judging based on performance because with gear checking you dont even get a chance to prove yourself.

Edited March 15, 2012 by bhouse

[Loendar]

Self-documented as in unverifiable/baseless claims.

 

Moreover, the naysayers (just like in the macro debate) are confusing a combat log = DPS meter. It is extremely difficult to gauge other players' performance by simply looking at a combat log. You can make such judgement if you have played the class that player is playing and you have inspected his/her gear and then realized they're not performing optimally. This kind of nonsense is already happening without combat logs.

 

Again, combat logs != metric/stats meters. Stop using this as a defense against a comprehensive combat log.

 

Speaking of baseless claims....

 

The pro-people keep trying to say that the anti- people are anti partially because they are too stupid to know what the discussion is about (now granted they haven't actually said they are too stupid but given that you keep saying that over and over even though it is factually incorrect would imply that you think they are).

 

I use a COMBAT LOG every other day in EQ2. I'm well-versed in what it is and there isn't a DPS meter in that game at all. I know what they are, I understand how they work, I know how they can be important AND I know what they do to a community.

 

Step off your high horse and realize that informed individuals are also against these things.

 

As for the continued assertion that everyone that has commented about people abusing other people with meters is making it up, etc. If any of you pro- people ACTUALLY believe that it isn't happening you are ill-formed, purposely ignoring it or clueless. Maybe a combination of all of them. Even if you haven't experienced it (and if you are a high-end raider that chance that you haven't seen someone called to task for not pulling their weight is so close to zero as to be non-existent) you have certainly heard about it.

 

Realistically - ANYONE on this thread that claims that it isn't happening in MMO's on a daily basis is so far removed from the reality of MMO's and social environments that their opinion on this subject so be immediately be rendered moot. It means you lack basic observation skills.

[Loendar]

I just looked at curse.com and out of the 5,000 addons they carry for WoW, the 4th MOST downloaded addon is recount. It has a total of 29.7 million downloads and monthly it gets about 375,000 downloads.

The other combat log parser is skada and it is rank 12 out of 5,000 with 3.7 million downloads and approximately 177,000 downloads a month.

 

It would seem that a lot of people do in fact find it useful to have the information provided by the combat log. I realize it is a completely different game but it is the same type of game with similar mechanics and I would guess that it has many of the same players.

 

Or - conversely - it could be that they have been required to download and install it by their guild. OR - maybe they realize that the game has become some skewed towards the min/max community and such that it has become a mandatory addition.

 

I don't play WoW - but I'm playing devil's advocate to point out that there are other reasons it could be so popular.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Loendar

[DarthKhaos]

Maybe I'm misreading you, but when I read that, what that implies to me is "I want it to be too difficult for people who form groups with a preferred analytical playstyle to do any meaningful analysis of raid performance in order for people with a different playstyle to be accepted in their groups."

 

I say that because my earlier post was intended to show that a "personal only" log system would make it much harder for a group who prefers to use combat logs to compile and correlate their analysis while not affecting at all a group who does not use combat logs. Meanwhile, it also allows someone who of a less hardcore mindset who just wants to pew-pew without caring about his performance to join a group who IS more hardcore and cares about standards of performance. On the other hand, a "public" log system would not affect in the least the ability of a "no logs" group to form and play and remove people who post logs, while it WOULD prevent the pew-pew guy from sneaking into a more hardcore group.

I said no such thing. let me break it down to you like this.

• Personal combat logs will allow you to perform self improvement.
  
• Personal Logs will allow you to collaborate with those of like minds to analyse data to your hearts content.
  
• Personal logs will be invisible to those who wish there not to be one.
  
• Personal logs will hopefuly diswade tunnel visions but I doubt it.
  
• Personal logs will not satisfy all but most. More than if you have public logs or private logs.
  

[Snoodmaster]

As for the continued assertion that everyone that has commented about people abusing other people with meters is making it up, etc. If any of you pro- people ACTUALLY believe that it isn't happening you are ill-formed, purposely ignoring it or clueless. Maybe a combination of all of them. Even if you haven't experienced it (and if you are a high-end raider that chance that you haven't seen someone called to task for not pulling their weight is so close to zero as to be non-existent) you have certainly heard about it.

 

What he is referring to as unverified is not the claims of uncivilized or rude behavior by people WITH meters/combat logs/whatever. What is unverified is the claim that combat logs CAUSE such behavior.

 

A rude jerk is a rude jerk. He'll be rude with combat logs, he'll be rude without combat logs. I've seen people get berated for having 10k hp, but nobody claims that having visible health bars 'causes' abusive behavior. Whereas the moment anyone brings up a combat log, the instant reaction is "combat logs cause people to be jerks."