PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Foxxen]

"You are asking BioWare to penalize a certain playstyle to support your own when there is an entirely separate model created just for you that will avoid everything you are afraid of."

 

Just that line alone contradicts everything you were stating. Because if you really think they're needed, then you yourself are fighting for something you're afraid of too. For too long I've played games like WoW ( Mostly WoW though on this ) that people used and abused any kind of stat they could get on someone. Combat logs do not do anything for leading as I've lead raids for years dating back to Dark Age of Camelot.

 

I will agree that a Threat meter would be great, not a DPS meter though. All that is, is another way of skewing combat log information so that people can play the epeen game and show their true arrogant nature. For once, why don't we as players of a game, quit trying to make this out to be our JOBS and just enjoy the ride and have fun. If there is any combat logs needed, it should strictly be for the Devs and Devs only. They're the ones that should be viewing these and deciding what classes need tweeks and don't.

 

It's been a proven fact, that the masses of MMO players in todays MMO's. That the large majority of them will do whatever it takes to disclude anyone out of something that does not fit their Spec, Play Style, Ways of Thinking, etc.... They will go out of their way to do this. This is why I've never been for the LFG tools that have been around since WoW put them in. It's a tool to be the perfect jerk and get away with it.

 

The only thing a combat log is good for is to give YOU yourself information. If you are just doing it to test what YOU are doing and you alone? Then what they give that affects ONLY YOU should be fine. Anything else is just you wanting to take control over others and tell them that they're weak here, need improvement there, or we're not taking you because last time you couldn't keep up with x-here.... Which falls on DPS meters which do the EXACT same thing.

 

Yeah, I'm a very technical player, I've been using DPS and Combat Logs for years. I personally never once discriminated against a single person using them. I did it to see the different information concerning the performance of players in the raids. But I've since done without them. I can tell when someone isn't up to par without it. All I have to do is inspect them to know if they're on the same level as the rest of the raid.

 

But as far as all of this technical numbers stuff goes, get a job with BioWare if this is what you wish to do. Then you can give this information to them directly and they can do something about it. Otherwise it's really just not that big of a deal. I'm enjoying the fact that stuff isn't in the game. All I want is a Threat Meter of some sort, because the Threat Dropping skills they put in the game for some classes doesn't work a good 90% of the time. Because I've crossed so far over the tanks threat, that skill does no good and I die anyway a good portion of the time.

 

I refuse to take a GAME so serious anymore though like I did in the past where all I cared about was my DPS vs Such and Such, vs X-Mob / Boss, I just want to go in and kill stuff, have a good time and LEARN the fights and go from there. Heck the biggest negative I have right now is some bosses in HM have such a short Enrage timer, that it's insane to survive sometimes. I could give examples of that, but that's for another thread / topic all together.

 

Just let BioWare make the decisions, don't sit here and try to get on a soapbox because you want something here that you had in another game. There are a lot of reasons for and why companies not wishing to do those features as they have played and seen first hand how people get in them. So they don't need an education from anyone of us. Suggestions yes, but that's all.

[JediElf]

Foxxen....your post is the best post I've read here. You are so right, and I'm glad that folks like you are playing this game.

 

Thank you.

Edited March 15, 2012 by JediElf

[Foxxen]

"You are asking BioWare to penalize a certain playstyle to support your own when there is an entirely separate model created just for you that will avoid everything you are afraid of."

 

Just that line alone contradicts everything you were stating. Because if you really think they're needed, then you yourself are fighting for something you're afraid of too. For too long I've played games like WoW ( Mostly WoW though on this ) that people used and abused any kind of stat they could get on someone. Combat logs do not do anything for leading as I've lead raids for years dating back to Dark Age of Camelot.

 

I will agree that a Threat meter would be great, not a DPS meter though. All that is, is another way of skewing combat log information so that people can play the epeen game and show their true arrogant nature. For once, why don't we as players of a game, quit trying to make this out to be our JOBS and just enjoy the ride and have fun. If there is any combat logs needed, it should strictly be for the Devs and Devs only. They're the ones that should be viewing these and deciding what classes need tweeks and don't.

 

It's been a proven fact, that the masses of MMO players in todays MMO's. That the large majority of them will do whatever it takes to disclude anyone out of something that does not fit their Spec, Play Style, Ways of Thinking, etc.... They will go out of their way to do this. This is why I've never been for the LFG tools that have been around since WoW put them in. It's a tool to be the perfect jerk and get away with it.

 

The only thing a combat log is good for is to give YOU yourself information. If you are just doing it to test what YOU are doing and you alone? Then what they give that affects ONLY YOU should be fine. Anything else is just you wanting to take control over others and tell them that they're weak here, need improvement there, or we're not taking you because last time you couldn't keep up with x-here.... Which falls on DPS meters which do the EXACT same thing.

 

Yeah, I'm a very technical player, I've been using DPS and Combat Logs for years. I personally never once discriminated against a single person using them. I did it to see the different information concerning the performance of players in the raids. But I've since done without them. I can tell when someone isn't up to par without it. All I have to do is inspect them to know if they're on the same level as the rest of the raid.

 

But as far as all of this technical numbers stuff goes, get a job with BioWare if this is what you wish to do. Then you can give this information to them directly and they can do something about it. Otherwise it's really just not that big of a deal. I'm enjoying the fact that stuff isn't in the game. All I want is a Threat Meter of some sort, because the Threat Dropping skills they put in the game for some classes doesn't work a good 90% of the time. Because I've crossed so far over the tanks threat, that skill does no good and I die anyway a good portion of the time.

 

I refuse to take a GAME so serious anymore though like I did in the past where all I cared about was my DPS vs Such and Such, vs X-Mob / Boss, I just want to go in and kill stuff, have a good time and LEARN the fights and go from there. Heck the biggest negative I have right now is some bosses in HM have such a short Enrage timer, that it's insane to survive sometimes. I could give examples of that, but that's for another thread / topic all together.

 

Just let BioWare make the decisions, don't sit here and try to get on a soapbox because you want something here that you had in another game. There are a lot of reasons for and why companies not wishing to do those features as they have played and seen first hand how people get in them. So they don't need an education from anyone of us. Suggestions yes, but that's all.

[Loendar]

Say you are forming a raid group and you have two people that want to join it. Both are the same class. One is a fresh 50 with lvl 47 blue mods in their gear and the other is someone that has full daily gear purple mods and a few pieces of tionese.

 

You run a flashpoint to see if they are good players and if they will be a good fit for your group. It turns out they both have the same personality and they can both stand out of the fire. Which one are you going to take to your raid group? All you have to go off of is if they can follow basic mechanics and personality. It turns out they are the same in both departments. The difference is one of them has better gear.

 

Now let's say you have the same players and run the same flash point. The same thing occurs and they have the same personality and both players follow mechanics. Except this time you have a damage meter. It turns out the fresh 50 in 47 blue mods does the same dps as the 50 in all daily purple mods and a few pieces of tionese gear. Now which one are you going to take?

 

Whichever one is available when I'm next running the FP? Why wouldn't I take either one?

[Expo-Nential]

Poll link from 1st page : 493 votes... 311 of them against anything more than 'self combat logs'

 

[Snoodmaster]

Whichever one is available when I'm next running the FP? Why wouldn't I take either one?

 

Because you are forming a raid group for normal KP? And you only have one slot open? And both are available? And everyone else is also in tionese level gear so it's not an overgeared farming run?

[Matte_Black]

Um, when referring to "pulling your weight" we aren't referring to you, yourself doing so, but to other people in the group doing so or failing to do so. Yes you can have fun while you personally aren't contributing. The question is, do you have fun while others are holding you back.

 

Yes, I have had many enjoyable times pulling more than my weight. I very readily fall into newbie helper roles and pretty frequently help others through content that they struggle with.

 

Or more importantly, should you be forced to take those people holding you back because you don't have a reasonable way to figure out who they are.

 

As I said earlier in my anecdote about the guildie we brought to HM KP as a fresh 50, I have no problem carrying others on occasion. What I question is the desire to prevent me from being aware that I am doing so.

 

As you pose your question, no. You shouldn't be forced to do anything but, that is not the reality of it. People are underperforming your expectations which may or may not be reasonable ones. Most likely, no one is holding you back, probably they are giving good effort by there method of doing so. If they truly are tripping you up intentionally for sake of making you fail, you have something to be upset about and that is called griefing and has little to do with metrics.

 

Too many of you guys are hung-up on numerical certification of everything. From requiring 100% samples to accept a poll to needing exact DPS numbers to compare to arbitrary required minimums. If it is not working out, just say so and make your choice about continuing at that group with those members. If the group sense the issue too, they will probably back you or else they will ask to move on to completion.

 

As a last option, you can always bail yourself. You have options, there is nothing but your own decsions forcing your actions..

[Drewser]

Because you are forming a raid group for normal KP? And you only have one slot open? And both are available? And everyone else is also in tionese level gear so it's not an overgeared farming run?

 

I'd go with a guild member first.

 

If both in the guild, the one the that signed up for the raid first.

 

If both not in guild, random number guess and take the guy that is closer.

[Blloodbane]

It limits the game for people who don't like to min/max. It leads to a certain spec becoming the "best" and anyone not using it gets labelled as "bad" regardless if their spec is adequate for the roll or not. I like to play my way, and I thank you for not dictating how I should play to meet your expectations.

 

I am sorry I have to tend to agree with this comment at least slightly.

 

Min/Maxers will be by far the worst about it, heck without a combat log already in game you already have people advertising at fleet for certain missions a gear check is required, what happens when they add a combat log? You know if they do its going to parsed liked crazy...

 

Then you have a chain reaction and escalation of events that impact the game dramatically. Becase what happens next? A huge shift to the best classes and broken classes just so they can compete in doing the high level content. Then what happens? Glad you asked then comes "class rebalancing" by BW so the other classes can be more appealing.. Then it starts all over again...

 

I seen it too many times in too many games were games with too much information available becomes a game of exclusion.

 

Now if you know someone or group with people with unusual builds but are just great players this can be overcome.

 

So in summary, I think combat logs are more detrimental than beneficial to a game as a community.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Blloodbane

[Loendar]

Because you are forming a raid group for normal KP? And you only have one slot open? And both are available? And everyone else is also in tionese level gear so it's not an overgeared farming run?

 

Ok - but the essay would seem to indicate that I'm going to get the same performance out of either person. To me, that's a wash - so whomever is available would be able to go in my world.

 

If both are available - it would be whomever responds first to the open slot.

 

Again - why would it matter in the presented scenario - they are both bringing the exact same everything but gear. And, without any additional information being presented in the scenario, it is just as likely that the person in lower gear is excelling as it is that the person in higher tier gear is playing poorly.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Loendar

[Ulmius]

"You are asking BioWare to penalize a certain playstyle to support your own when there is an entirely separate model created just for you that will avoid everything you are afraid of."

 

Just that line alone contradicts everything you were stating. Because if you really think they're needed, then you yourself are fighting for something you're afraid of too. For too long I've played games like WoW ( Mostly WoW though on this ) that people used and abused any kind of stat they could get on someone. Combat logs do not do anything for leading as I've lead raids for years dating back to Dark Age of Camelot.

 

To say combat logs don't do anything is false. They allow you to optimize your gear, talents, rotations, etc and test them out in an efficient manner. As a few of the anti meter people have stated, they allow you to become a better player faster which leads to clearing content faster.

 

I will agree that a Threat meter would be great, not a DPS meter though. All that is, is another way of skewing combat log information so that people can play the epeen game and show their true arrogant nature. For once, why don't we as players of a game, quit trying to make this out to be our JOBS and just enjoy the ride and have fun. If there is any combat logs needed, it should strictly be for the Devs and Devs only. They're the ones that should be viewing these and deciding what classes need tweeks and don't.

 

The only people that need a threat meter are tanks and off tanks when they switch who's taking the boss. And even then it's not needed because one of them just has to not do his skills for a few seconds. Threat meters are more of a crutch than dps meters are. How people don't understand that I'll never know. With that said though, do I care if people use them? No, if they find it enhances their enjoyment of the game then have at it.

 

Anyway, who ever said anything about making this a job? Taking a bit of time to learn your character and being able to perform at a solid level doesn't take much time at all. I would hardly consider that a "job". Meters aren't for Epeen, they are for giving you the information to maximize your player. Also, the part that people don't like is they give people a bit of insight if someone is good. Someone could have the right gear and right spec, but they can still be terrible. Meters weed out those players which is the basis of the anti meter crowd argument.

 

It's been a proven fact, that the masses of MMO players in todays MMO's. That the large majority of them will do whatever it takes to disclude anyone out of something that does not fit their Spec, Play Style, Ways of Thinking, etc.... They will go out of their way to do this. This is why I've never been for the LFG tools that have been around since WoW put them in. It's a tool to be the perfect jerk and get away with it.

 

The only thing a combat log is good for is to give YOU yourself information. If you are just doing it to test what YOU are doing and you alone? Then what they give that affects ONLY YOU should be fine. Anything else is just you wanting to take control over others and tell them that they're weak here, need improvement there, or we're not taking you because last time you couldn't keep up with x-here.... Which falls on DPS meters which do the EXACT same thing.

 

When you play in a GROUP, what you do and how you play becomes the GROUP's business. This isn't a single player game where how you play only effects yourself, it's a GROUP game where your actions matter. If YOU are a terrible player, you hurt the experience of the GROUP.

 

Yeah, I'm a very technical player, I've been using DPS and Combat Logs for years. I personally never once discriminated against a single person using them. I did it to see the different information concerning the performance of players in the raids. But I've since done without them. I can tell when someone isn't up to par without it. All I have to do is inspect them to know if they're on the same level as the rest of the raid.

 

So you admit when given the tools, you use them. When you don't have them, you don't. Makes sense.

 

But as far as all of this technical numbers stuff goes, get a job with BioWare if this is what you wish to do. Then you can give this information to them directly and they can do something about it. Otherwise it's really just not that big of a deal. I'm enjoying the fact that stuff isn't in the game. All I want is a Threat Meter of some sort, because the Threat Dropping skills they put in the game for some classes doesn't work a good 90% of the time. Because I've crossed so far over the tanks threat, that skill does no good and I die anyway a good portion of the time.

 

So it's fine to ask for a tool that suits your playstyle, but it's not fine for others asking for a tool that helps them evaluate the people in their group because that fits their playstyle. This is a group game, and as I said, when you play in a group, your actions and abilities matter because it directly effects the other people in the group.

 

I refuse to take a GAME so serious anymore though like I did in the past where all I cared about was my DPS vs Such and Such, vs X-Mob / Boss, I just want to go in and kill stuff, have a good time and LEARN the fights and go from there. Heck the biggest negative I have right now is some bosses in HM have such a short Enrage timer, that it's insane to survive sometimes. I could give examples of that, but that's for another thread / topic all together.

 

Yes, learning the fights is fun. I think every raider will agree with that. But the problem comes when you have the raid on farm and everything is a one shot deal. It's then that raiding becomes boring and tedious. Having meters adds to the fun by adding competition. As another anti-meter person put it in his tic tac toe analogy, competition keeps things fun. Without it, the game becomes boring.

 

Just let BioWare make the decisions, don't sit here and try to get on a soapbox because you want something here that you had in another game. There are a lot of reasons for and why companies not wishing to do those features as they have played and seen first hand how people get in them. So they don't need an education from anyone of us. Suggestions yes, but that's all.

 

Decisions change over time and they can just as easily add damage meters to this game. If people keep voicing their opinions, who knows what will happen. Nothing wrong with voicing opinions. Before they were against LFG tools, now in a future patch they will add them.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Ulmius

[Snoodmaster]

As you pose your question, no. You shouldn't be forced to do anything but, that is not the reality of it. People are underperforming your expectations which may or may not be reasonable ones. Most likely, no one is holding you back, probably they are giving good effort by there method of doing so. If they truly are tripping you up intentionally for sake of making you fail, you have something to be upset about and that is called griefing and has little to do with metrics.

 

It doesn't really matter from my perspective whether the guy is intentionally holding back the group or doing it because he's well-meaning but just not geared enough, or skilled enough. The practical effect (boss enrage, raid wipe, repair bill, e.t.c.) is the same.

 

My point is that unless you have a combat log showing their performance, you don't know about it and are thus forced to put up with it. You COULD just start kicking people randomly whenever the raid wipes just on principle, but that's not a good solution.

 

As a last option, you can always bail yourself. You have options, there is nothing but your own decsions forcing your actions..[/color]

 

I can't bail if I don't know that there is someone underperforming. And I don't know if there is someone underperforming unless I can see their performance in a log. I can guess, I can estimate, but ultimately I don't really know. Let's say the raid is on SoA and we're wiping to his enrage in phase3. I suspect that the problem is with a fresh 50 we brought in not doing enough dps to get him through the burn phases. But maybe we really wiped because SoA decided to toss both of the highest dps into a mindtrap right before the last crystal dropped and the fresh 50's dps is just fine. If I'm going by my gut instinct, I'll say we bring in a better-geared dps to replace the new guy, or call the raid and try again with a different group later. If I have a combat log to figure out the truth, I'll know that we should instead just grind through and hope for better luck.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Snoodmaster

[JediElf]

I am sorry I have to tend to agree with this comment at least slightly.

 

Min/Maxers will be by far the worst about it, heck without a combat log already in game you already have people advertising at fleet for certain missions a gear check is required, what happens when they add a combat log? You know if they do its going to parsed liked crazy...

 

Then you have a chain reaction and escalation of events that impact the game dramatically. Becase what happens next? A huge shift to the best classes and broken classes just so they can compete in doing the high level content. Then what happens? Glad you asked then comes "class rebalancing" by BW so the other classes can be more appealing.. Then it starts all over again...

 

I seen it too many times in too many games were games with too much information available becomes a game of exclusion.

 

Now if you know someone or group with people with unusual builds but are just great players this can be overcome.

 

So in summary, I think combat logs are more detrimental than beneficial to a game as a community.

 

Very well said. ^

Edited March 15, 2012 by JediElf

[DaxRendar]

1. In a raid group of 8 or 16 people, the task of coordinating and syncing all those different personal logs becomes unreasonably high.

 

If you have truly found 8 or 16 like-minded people that expect and demand the kind of analysis you want, gathering those logs will be easy.

 

If they don't agree then clearly some people are trying to impose their playstyle on others (it could go either way).

 

I can almost guarantee any dedicated Raid Group that is consistently wiping on an Encounter and doesn't know why will be happily submitting their Logs to find out what's going on.

 

2. It is just as easy for a group of people who dislike logs to form an "anti-log" raid as it is for a group of people who like logs to create their own "pro-log" raid.

 

Most sensible people would agree that Logs aren't needed on most encounters or raids unless something is going wrong that a parse can help fix or identify. There are people who want parses all the time but they certainly aren't needed. Defaulting to making Logging more effort/less convenient creates an environment where they aren't "expected" or "the norm" which considering how rabid many "pro-Meter" people are is something needed.

 

Once Logs are a default it permeates the entire game culture. It's up to the game designer and the community to determine what the intent and norm is. So far, BioWare seems to favor "Personal" analysis over Group ones but we won't know for sure until 1.2 hits the Test Server.

 

3. Having the logs public prevents people from sneaking into a "pro-log" raid and then lying about their performance with doctored logs or pretending to be unable to upload them. If everyone has a public log, then it's quickly obvious who's data has been tampered with.

 

Yeah, that can theoretically happen. If somebody consistently has "trouble" uploading them (or it's always "delayed" compared to everybody else) then you have a nice "red flag" to monitor that person's behavior. But honestly unless somebody is maliciously joining your group to ruin everybody else's experience by both performing badly and doctoring their Logs, it's likely not going to be an issue. Most people do want to play well, play with like-minded people, and succeed, and I mean that's a LOT of effort just to be part of your group.

[geckglow]

So in reading these posts and the others in other MMO's I'm seeing 2 schools of thought.

 

A. I want to play my way, and don't want you given tools to dictate what way that should be.

 

B. I want to Maximize my and my groups capabilities and want the tools to allow myself to do so.

 

Now, both groups are trying to dictate what the other is allowed to do, (Wanting to prevent people from having tools that can be abused is the same as wanting others to change playstyles to match your needs, they are both limiting others gamepley). That being said, there are individuals of both school of thought who are outright stating they don't care what YOU do, they do/don't want these changes for their own gameplay.

 

What I don't understand is the need for the bickering outside of trolling. As I see it, it comes down to a few basic things.

 

1. Logs can help a player finetune themselves.

2. Logs can be used to make runs/guilds exclusive and all the "evils" those contain.

3. Logs can lead to min/maxing requirements.

4. Logs can let people see where mistakes happened.

5. Logs can show you why you/someone died

 

1.) I don't appreciate someone coming up with reasons why I would not be allowed to finetune myself. I understand that the reasons are because someone wants to protect their gameplay choice, But why should I be 100% limited by not having logs when you MIGHT be limited by having logs.

2.) Exclusivety happens. If it's not over logs, it's over "preferred specs" because of their other offerings, (instant cast cc, bloodlust, etc.) or any number of other things. Where competition exists, there exists elitists. Where elitists exist, there exists exclusivity. Trying to stop it is like prohibition. And even the US government gave up on that one. Basicly, Logs don't create exclusivety, people do. Logs are simply one concrete tool people can point to and say, "they use this!".

3.) DO you honestly think that lack of logs stops the min/maxers from finding other ways to try and min/max? Or will stop them from coming up with requirements? The "it makes it easier" argument is exactly that, an argument. Not a debate. They do it already, they will continue to do it, arguing to prevent it just leads to frustration on both parts and won't stop human nature.

4.) NO ONE likes to have it pointed out when they screw up. The min/maxers don't like it anymore then the "play it my way" crowd. But it is necessary to find out where the problem happened to prevent it from happening again. Right now we do that from visual queues. That method is flawed. The log method is better.

5.) I'd like to know why I died. The mysterious die on rez bugs, Thinking I died from swipe, but finding out it was something else allows me to adjust myself for the proper danger.

 

"guns don't kill people, people kill people" The truth of the matter is Bioware will make their decision based on how they see it affecting the community as a whole. I agree whole heartedly in not having another WOW. I played my preferred spec in WOW because I wanted too, was still able to keep up with the dps and never limited my groups. They had no issues with me. Other people did not have it so easy. I get that and don't want it repeated. But WOW went to a min/maxers dream in burning crusade and kept it up. The game encouraged that approach and targetted the endgamers and pvp'ers as a main audience. Blizzard cultivated the mentality that so many are against now. Bioware already isn't doing that. Are logs a tool that can be used to recreate that hell? Yes. And screwdrivers can be used in assembling bombs, doesn't mean no one should have one. It's really going to come down to the communities we nurture on our own servers, and how it will affect them. I agree that the abuses of logs can be used to make the community feel hostile in some cases, or create the pressure to confirm to the norm. But in all these it starts with "Logs can be used", NOT "Logs make ____ happen". Don't attack the gun over a shooting, look to the gunman.

[eanamdar]

I vote against any combat logs, or DPS meters. These mechanisms bring nothing positive to this, or any MMORPG.

[Astorie]

I'd like to address this particular quote, and I apologize if this has been stated already, as I don't really have the time (or desire, frankly) to sift through as many pages as this thread has gotten.

 

He should also add this to the OP as a developer response:

 

Ten Ton Hammer: Yeah, that was one of my main concerns. I love playing alts, but I don’t want to do the world quests over and over again. Ok, asking one last question and changing the topic rapidly to parsable out-of-game logs. How exactly does that work? From my understanding, only you are able to view your logs?

 

James Ohlen: Yes. We’re going to be able to get logs from your combat and you’ll be able to take that information and look at how your group did in a given combat. Right now, there are two schools of thought on it. One group of players don’t want the combat log because it can be exclusionary and it makes it that there’s all this pressure to perform a certain way. There are groups who think that’s the way it’s supposed to be, who want to be the super-elite group. So we made it that if you want to be the super-elite group, it takes a little bit more work. It’s not so easy to be exclusionary. You have to take that extra step to basically parse it out and look at it. You can get the information you need, but it’s something that we’re not making easy to use. It’s kind of a compromise. There’ll be guilds that’ll make use of it and I’m sure that there’ll be guilds that don’t.

 

Ten Ton Hammer: So you are able to see other people’s combat actions if you go out of game and parse the logs?

 

James Ohlen: Yes.

 

http://swtorhub.com/dash-everything-swtor-12-interview-james-ohlen

 

To those wanting a "more convenient" DPS meter/combat log, suck it up. I'm sorry, but suck it up. The more convenient, on-the-fly meters are far less detailed and far less useful than web-based parsers such as the ones from WoW. If there is a combat.txt file of sorts, and it is written to in real time, it's far from unlikely that a World of Logs/WWS type site will exist in the near future. That will allow for detailed post-combat analysis, even between attempts/pulls. Sure, you'll have to tab out, bring it up on a second monitor/window, etc. but for the depth of detail in the information you can possibly glean from looking at this, it's worth it compared to having a simple Recount-style DPS meter in game. This also avoids the typical "e-peening" that people are afraid of. Most players won't tab out to the live-logged metrics just to say "HAH. I DID 4 MORE DPS THAN YOU!!11one", whereas a raid leader will do so to see where in an attempt they're struggling. Are the healers healing the wrong person? There's currently no way of knowing. Is random-raid-member-A standing in some sort of mechanic that he's not supposed to? No real way of knowing unless s/he dies from it. Repeatedly.

 

As much as I'd like to see an in-game combat log, what I really would like is a death log (a. I'm a tank, knowing what gibbed me is a HUGE deal for me and b. in PVP, sometimes I just wanna know "*** hit me O_O"), and BioWare has stated (and the quote is on page 1) that they're adding in a simple /wtfkilledme command of sorts to see how you died. Between that and a combat log that's written to on my HDD? I'm happy as a clam as a tank and a raid leader. And anyone serious about raiding, as this thread seems to be aimed at, should be as well. WoL/WWS > Recount-style in-game meters any day. If you want a Recount-style in-game meter over WoL/WWS, maybe you aren't as serious as you think you are.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

And to the naysayers: I think the biggest issue most people take from combat logs and such is the threat that a "Gear Score" type of exclusionary practice will arise. Well guess what, there is already a "Gear Score". Currently, our guild has the exact amount of people to fill an Operation, as we're a small group of semi-hardcore raiders who've played together for years. This means we have NO bench. If one of our members can't make it, we may choose to PUG our last member (provided it's not a tank or healer, mind you). When advertising for the slot, we plainly state that you must have gear that is at least a majority 126 rating or higher. This rating number is found on ALL pieces of gear. Granted, we have to inspect you to see your gear to find this out, but we're okay with that. Adding a combat log will help guilds who wish to push the bleeding edge of content. Anyone who practices exclusion when picking members to join their ops will continue to do so with, or without, the implementation of combat logs. And most groups who don't practice exclusion will continue to not do so even if/when combat logs are implemented.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Astorie

[JediElf]

This is a game about Star Wars...remember?

 

I find it so amusing that so many of you will also cry about how this game is too solo friendly, and how it lacks 'community'. Yes because people would really want to seek out all that wonderful group content, if they had to deal with getting kicked for .02 less DPS.

 

You can't complain about lack of 'community', when your wishing for something that is really very anti-community....and it is, just look at how people want to control how others play the game, how they play their class, and how they build their character.

 

That's not team work, that's just taking orders.

 

[Drewser]

This is a game about Star Wars...remember?

 

I find it so amusing that so many of you will also cry about how this game is too solo friendly, and how it lacks 'community'. Yes because people would really want to seek out all that wonderful group content, if they had to deal with getting kicked for .02 less DPS.

 

You can't complain about lack of 'community', when your wishing for something that is really very anti-community....and it is, just look at how people want to control how others play the game, how they play their class, and how they build their character.

 

That's not team work, that's just taking orders.

 

 

Don't you remember when Han told Chewy he had to pick up his DPS or he was going to kick him for Lando?

[Atharyia]

Wait. Is this thread about combat logs or parsers. They are two entirely different things. A combat log just shows what happened in the order it happened (so and so was hit for 4k). Damage meters and parsers are a different tool, that takes the combat log and put it into statistical information (overall damage done/taken etc). There is no harm in having in game combat logs, damage meters and parsers are a different story.

[JediElf]

"You are asking BioWare to penalize a certain playstyle to support your own when there is an entirely separate model created just for you that will avoid everything you are afraid of."

 

Just that line alone contradicts everything you were stating. Because if you really think they're needed, then you yourself are fighting for something you're afraid of too. For too long I've played games like WoW ( Mostly WoW though on this ) that people used and abused any kind of stat they could get on someone. Combat logs do not do anything for leading as I've lead raids for years dating back to Dark Age of Camelot.

 

I will agree that a Threat meter would be great, not a DPS meter though. All that is, is another way of skewing combat log information so that people can play the epeen game and show their true arrogant nature. For once, why don't we as players of a game, quit trying to make this out to be our JOBS and just enjoy the ride and have fun. If there is any combat logs needed, it should strictly be for the Devs and Devs only. They're the ones that should be viewing these and deciding what classes need tweeks and don't.

 

It's been a proven fact, that the masses of MMO players in todays MMO's. That the large majority of them will do whatever it takes to disclude anyone out of something that does not fit their Spec, Play Style, Ways of Thinking, etc.... They will go out of their way to do this. This is why I've never been for the LFG tools that have been around since WoW put them in. It's a tool to be the perfect jerk and get away with it.

 

The only thing a combat log is good for is to give YOU yourself information. If you are just doing it to test what YOU are doing and you alone? Then what they give that affects ONLY YOU should be fine. Anything else is just you wanting to take control over others and tell them that they're weak here, need improvement there, or we're not taking you because last time you couldn't keep up with x-here.... Which falls on DPS meters which do the EXACT same thing.

 

Yeah, I'm a very technical player, I've been using DPS and Combat Logs for years. I personally never once discriminated against a single person using them. I did it to see the different information concerning the performance of players in the raids. But I've since done without them. I can tell when someone isn't up to par without it. All I have to do is inspect them to know if they're on the same level as the rest of the raid.

 

But as far as all of this technical numbers stuff goes, get a job with BioWare if this is what you wish to do. Then you can give this information to them directly and they can do something about it. Otherwise it's really just not that big of a deal. I'm enjoying the fact that stuff isn't in the game. All I want is a Threat Meter of some sort, because the Threat Dropping skills they put in the game for some classes doesn't work a good 90% of the time. Because I've crossed so far over the tanks threat, that skill does no good and I die anyway a good portion of the time.

 

I refuse to take a GAME so serious anymore though like I did in the past where all I cared about was my DPS vs Such and Such, vs X-Mob / Boss, I just want to go in and kill stuff, have a good time and LEARN the fights and go from there. Heck the biggest negative I have right now is some bosses in HM have such a short Enrage timer, that it's insane to survive sometimes. I could give examples of that, but that's for another thread / topic all together.

 

Just let BioWare make the decisions, don't sit here and try to get on a soapbox because you want something here that you had in another game. There are a lot of reasons for and why companies not wishing to do those features as they have played and seen first hand how people get in them. So they don't need an education from anyone of us. Suggestions yes, but that's all.

 

I just wanted this to be seen once again...

 

Quoted for truth, the words of a true gamer.

[Blloodbane]

Wait. Is this thread about combat logs or parsers. They are two entirely different things. A combat log just shows what happened in the order it happened (so and so was hit for 4k). Damage meters and parsers are a different tool, that takes the combat log and put it into statistical information (overall damage done/taken etc). There is no harm in having in game combat logs, damage meters and parsers are a different story.

 

Yes they are two different things but as SOON as there is a combat log there is some smart programmer right behind it coding parsers from the information presented.

[Snoodmaster]

What is selfish about it? It's the truth. If the raid is wiping because there isn't enough dps to beat the enrage timer, the raid is still wiping. The boss doesn't just fall over because the guy was trying his best.

 

Personally, I would be nicer to the guy who isn't being a jerk, but ultimately if he's the source of the problem with the dps, that's as problematic as him griefing.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Trineda
removed quote

[Stupiddrummer]

Don't you remember when Han told Chewy he had to pick up his DPS or he was going to kick him for Lando?

 

Haha, no. Because, like always, Chewy's dps was fine and consistent. So Han didn't have to say anything.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Matte_Black]

Haha, no. Because, like always, Chewy's dps was fine and consistent. So Han didn't have to say anything.

 

It's amazing that you can be so certain without having seen the data. Must have been on the blue-ray.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Matte_Black