Mara/Pally Bubble needs to be looked at(Undying Rage)

[kiroshei]

reducing healing recieved while UR is up is major changes? class breaking? lol yeah lets wait until after you get your rank easily to fix it. makes sense

[biowareftw]

reducing healing recieved while UR is up is major changes? class breaking? lol yeah lets wait until after you get your rank easily to fix it. makes sense

 

If you really think people are going to be stacking marauders over tanks you are simply insane...

 

This isn't team deathmatch or 3 v3. If it was 3 v 3 then I could understand your complaints.

 

Oh yeah and marauders/sents are getting new abilities, cus you know they are "so overpowered".

[Dlema]

Ok so after reading most of these post I can honestly say I dont think it needs a nerf. I play a sin so im not saying this simply cause I play the class.

 

The ability only last 6 seconds, maras arent to hard to kite.

[mayjin]

Ok so after reading most of these post I can honestly say I dont think it needs a nerf. I play a sin so im not saying this simply cause I play the class.

 

The ability only last 6 seconds, maras arent to hard to kite.

 

I know its only one second but its 5 mate...

[Kuzukaze]

Actualy does OP know, that marauder wears medium armor like IA?

Not heavy like juggs, so that why they have defence CDs, and its not just +10% passive deflect and damage reduction, its all about pressing button in time. U cant use UR in stun, for example, how many times i died sin stunlock unable to pop saberward/UR or even cloak.

 

And in Cata blizzard allow paladins to use wings in bouble, to do retri paladins more viable.

[EternalFinality]

I'm surprised no one has done it yet, but

 

1 star

[Derian]

You win again sir

 

I noticed this too. The bandwagon Sent/Mars are very bad.

[Garrum]

The paladin bubble made you literally immune to everything, wiped all debuffs, and lasted 12 seconds (originally), and for all of vanilla had literally no counter.

 

Guarded by the Force is nothing like that. It's a 5 second damage reducer with a built in penalty, and is countered by any stun, knockback, or mez. It's a strong ability, but to complain it's a paladin bubble is just not legit.

[BiggDirty]

Incoming big post:

 

Marauders are better equipped to deal with focus-fire than any other class. This is absolutely true. It's either a design decision or a design oversight (completely dependant on BW's stance). Yes, focusing healers isn't ALWAYS the best course of action, but I'm gonna wager a bet and say that focusing a Marauder first is ALWAYS a bad decision.

 

So you and I both agree on that point. This doesn't, however mean that Marauders make other classes obsolete because there are ways to deal with them that you can't do to other damage-dealing classes. Mainly the fact that you don't have to kill a Marauder to stop their damage output.

 

The most popular Marauder spec atm is Annihilation. It is 100% weapon-based in terms of damage output and is limited to 4m range attacks at all times. Carnage is also almost completely weapon-based with the exception of the Force Scream mechanic. Marauders are one of two classes (the other being snipers) that rely primarily on white weapon-based attacks. This is their flaw. Numerous classes have abilities that are designed to combat only this type of attack and nothing else.

 

Dodge/Evasion on Smugglers/Agents, Deflection on Shadows/Assassins, any accuracy reducing ability like Flashbang, and etc. There are numerous other abilities like these in the game. Not to mention shields being 100% effective for every one of a Marauder's attack.

 

It's important to note that these types of abilities don't affect the damage output of a Mercenary, Powertech or Juggernaut (just using your examples and talking about damage-dealers) anywhere near as much as it would a Marauder. The mentioned classes have numerous tech or force abilities at their disposal that they use on a regular basis to deal damage which completely negates the usefulness of shields, accuracy reducing abilities, and defense increasing abilities in the game.

 

Couple this with the fact that Marauders are melee and are required to be at 4m range at all times to deal damage. Applying a root or slowing them greatly diminishes the damage they can deal because they basically won't deal damage outside of 4m range. A Mercenary's damage output is unaffected by roots/slows obviously because they are ranged. A Pyrotech PT (most common damage-dealing spec for the class) have 30m range moves in their core damage priority abilities (Thermal Detonator, Rail Shot, basic attack, Unload or DFA otherwise) as well as a core 10m ability with no CD (Flame Burst) that can somewhat counter the fact that they are getting rooted/slowed. Juggernauts are another issue altogether and I feel that they are lacking in their damage-dealing specs. Rage spec'd Juggs deal better burst damage than Marauders but trade off too much survivability to make it not worth it IMO.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that Marauder's are designed to combat focus fire (which other damage classes cannot do) but also that there are a myriad of things that can greatly diminish their damage dealing potential without having to kill them that you can't do to other classes. Yes, you CANNOT focus-fire a Marauder off the bat and expect to kill him like you can do to other classes but you can effectively cripple his damage and usefulness and focus down a different target. This is actually a safe thing to do vs a Marauder but a terrible thing to do vs any of the other classes you mentioned. Griping about not being able to just kill Marauders is pointless because that's just the game design. It's like being pissed off about healers being first priority targets or burst damage classes dealing burst damage.

 

Not to mention that different classes are different. Arsenal Mercs bring armor debuffs into the team. Juggs and PT's bring in taunts. And the different CC's other classes bring in. You can't make a team of 2 healers and 6 Marauders and expect to win vs a more well-rounded team.

 

It is my opinion that we should actually wait till rated's come out and THEN make changes if necessary. At this point though, I don't think Marauders need to be tweaked at all. I have a really good feeling, however, that class balance is pretty decent in a team-based competitive environment. I think DPS-spec'd Juggernauts are under-powered. Snipers may also potentially be in a bad spot, but I'm unsure because of low representation on my server. Levelling one atm.

 

Atleast you're trying to discuss the class instead of one random ability like the OP is. The OP is complaining about a 5s damage immunity move that is predictable in its usage while forgetting that his own class has the same type of ability (Force Shroud) that in essence makes you immune to 6/8 classes in the game for 5s (talented, everyone is rolling Darkness/Kinetic anyways) but is more freely usable (cost) and removes any hostile effects to boot. I'm not complaining about that move because I'm not so narrow-minded like he is, but damn, the quality of the discussions in the forums are just terrible because you have people like him posting.

 

You are the type of player who is willing and able to overcome these types of advantages through skill and in depth strategy. You must realize however, that you are part of a VERY small minority.

 

The vast majority of players will take the path of least resistance.

 

It is simply EASIER to run two merc healers, with one ranged dps (sorc/merc/PT), a tank hybrid (for guard), and 4 melee (any combination of assassin/marauder).

 

With this comp, all you have to do is choose a target, and burst it down in 2 global cooldowns.

 

With so much going on at once, there is no way the average team is going to be able to coordinate well enough to CC the melee to the point of ineffectiveness.

 

What's going to happen, is they will choose a target as well, except their choices are infinitely harder to burst down than yours are, because of these immunity abilities. (This applies not just to marauders, but to assassins and merc healers as well)

 

By stacking your team with classes who have immunity, you have effectively removed the option for the other team to burst someone down.

 

THIS is the reason why every 5v5 team had a paladin and a shaman.

 

Could you beat a 12345 combo without using a pally/shaman? Sure you could, but the amount of skill and strategy required to do so was simply not worth the effort.

 

As you said, we will just have to wait and see. But I am confident that sorcs/snipers/mercs/ops/powertechs will end up being nothing but a liability on most competitive teams. They are simply too easy to kill, and too easy to LoS.

 

This isn't just a marauder issue, I believe that immunity in general has no place in PvP. The only reason it exists in most cases is because the damage output is so completely over the top that it becomes necessary in order to avoid being bursted within two seconds.

 

The problem with this though, is that if they lowered the damage output, it would further increase the gear gap between casuals, making it completely impossible to kill anyone when a decent healer is involved. This would of course lead to millions of QQ posts regarding unkillable healers, all being posted by people who have not yet reached maximum gear levels, and have not seen first hand what happens to a healer when 5 BM geared melee decide to switch to him simultaneously.

 

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. Thanks for your post, you made some valid points. I have already dropped my sage and commando, and started power leveling my sentinel. I just started today and I'm sitting at level 23. I'll see you guys in rated wz's, and we'll have this discussion again in 3 months when I have some actual results to back things up.

[Rotanartlu]

The paladin bubble made you literally immune to everything, wiped all debuffs, and lasted 12 seconds (originally), and for all of vanilla had literally no counter.

 

Guarded by the Force is nothing like that. It's a 5 second damage reducer with a built in penalty, and is countered by any stun, knockback, or mez. It's a strong ability, but to complain it's a paladin bubble is just not legit.

 

This exactly. If a mara pops this you can cc/kite/vanish away and come back and kill him. Its not an offensive ability since it takes half of ur hp away.

[Sleeptastic]

If there is any point in a WZ that all 8 of your people are together other than when the game starts, you already lost.

[Swarna]

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. Thanks for your post, you made some valid points. I have already dropped my sage and commando, and started power leveling my sentinel. I just started today and I'm sitting at level 23. I'll see you guys in rated wz's, and we'll have this discussion again in 3 months when I have some actual results to back things up.

Yeah, we can only conjecture and guess at this point how the rated meta will turn out. I'm personally not adverse to any changes to my class or anything (I'll adapt) but I really don't think any major changes are necessary until we see some solid empirical data from rated ladders and etc.

[Cegenaus]

At OP do you really want to play the WoW game?

 

I will gladly give up my "immunity" in which I can be CC'd (so it isn't immunity) for these tools that a warrior has in WoW.

 

a second charge (heroic leap).

 

a get out of jail freecard on roots that makes me immune to ALL CC during the duration...oh yeah and it is also the hardest hitting aoe in the game (sweeping strikes/Bladestorm).

 

immunity to mez CC's (fear)

 

a charge that stuns

 

a stun that isn't channeled

 

a better mortal strike

 

a spell reflect

 

an aoe slow in addition to my "hamstring"

 

a hamstring that roots

 

when stunned you get healed

 

when stunned you get a CRAP LOAD of rage/focus so that when you get out you don't have to autoswing

 

don't get rooted through full diminishing returns (resolve) like you can from a hybrid sage/sorc

 

can interupt almost any cc in the game minus stuns (and ranged classes don't get much stuns in WoW and they aren't near as good as they are in SWTOR)

 

Summary? Ranged have it easier in this game then WoW. They have every advantage possible. They are WAY easier to play then any WoW ranged while sentinel/marauder is harder to play then an arms warrior.

 

LOL when patch notes come out for 1.2 and these faceroll classes are nerfed and sentinel/marauders are buffed. I will laugh hysterically as you attempt to play one and get your face kicked in.

 

Also sentinels/marauders are "fotm"? LOL. Yeah they sure are! These horrible rerolled ranged doing 50-100 k (how is it even possible to be this bad) dmg on their sent/marauders in 10-49 are taking over the world!

 

I would tell you to go back to WoW but you and I both know that you sucked on your frostmage. You have never had it this good. Yet you still complain.

 

we have it easier? so we can beat you 1v1 in melee range right? our only defense is to kite you and that usually doesnt happen. try playing a merc that has no defense or utility what so ever and also has activation timers for most of their abilities and then tell me ranged is op

[biowareftw]

Yeah, we can only conjecture and guess at this point how the rated meta will turn out. I'm personally not adverse to any changes to my class or anything (I'll adapt) but I really don't think any major changes are necessary until we see some solid empirical data from rated ladders and etc.

 

We already know how it is gonna turn out. Tons of tanks. Tons of healers. Whoever caps the node first (token marauder/sent for transcendance/predation at start) wins in a 5 point victory in civil war with mid remaining uncapped the whole time. This is how it will be past the "1500" bracket. Noone will open a door EVER in voidstar.

 

It is going to be damn near impossible to take a node/door before respawns come.

 

Aoe Taunt/taunts plus decent dmg and guard > dps classes. Which is what makes people complaining about dps classes all the more hilarious. The only "dps classes" brought will be hybrid sorc/sages because of knockbacks, roots that go through full resolve and two stuns (the short one makes up for bad play aka breaking CC), and a token sent/marauder who is going to be bored out of his mind trying to catch people through aoe slows x 2-3 and roots through full resolve.

 

If sent/marauders didn't have transcendance/predation? Noone would bring them at all. Mortal strike is useless because it has a cooldown and taunts/guard makes attacking that target pointless anyways.

 

I don't expect marauders/sents to be nerfed whatsoever. I expect guard/taunts to be nerfed to the ground withing a month of rateds starting.

 

Tank stacking is the easiest road. You can have horrible players and do well with it. If WoW arena taught us anything it is that people will reroll at the drop of the hat for the easiest path to victory.

 

Don't be surprised if sentinels/marauders are forced into focus/rage spec for perma transcendence/predation either...

 

Trust me. People will use all the loopholes/easiest comps they can.

[biowareftw]

we have it easier? so we can beat you 1v1 in melee range right? our only defense is to kite you and that usually doesnt happen. try playing a merc that has no defense or utility what so ever and also has activation timers for most of their abilities and then tell me ranged is op

 

Learn to kite better.

 

Last time I checked Merc had 2 defensive abilities (heal that can be used with a medpack is the second) and two knockbacks. Then again I am rarely if ever knocked back twice by them, because they are usually horrible. They also don't heal themselves.

 

I love how people act like it is hard to kite on a sorc when you have two stuns a RANGED slow (that none of them even use), a channeled that kites, that idiots cast PAST their proc while kiting (user error). Oh yeah and the best? Roots through full resolve.

 

If you can't kite a marauder/sent for at least 45 seconds? You are plain horrible.

 

Merc/commando? Different story. They have no ranged slow, their dps can be shut down. They have a cast time on their second CC and it doesn't turn into a short stun. They do hit like trucks though.

 

BTW I have to laugh at anyone who would make both a merc and a sorc. I played these classes in beta and was bored out of my freaking mind. Dumbed down shadow priest and an arcane mage is all they are....

 

Please stop acting like there is anything special going on with these classes as far as skill lol. We mastered shadowpriest years ago in WoW and had to shift in and out of shadow to heal/dps. We did it without gaming mice (which makes sage/sorc a joke to play). Arcane mage *cough* Merc/commando? That was even easier...

 

I am sorry to break it to you but anyone topping you on dmg with a sent/marauder can do 1/3rd more with a sage/sorc while making fun of how stupidly easy the class is to play. Merc/Commando? Depends on how dumb the people you are playing are (standing together, not using LOS).

Edited March 12, 2012 by biowareftw

[WNxAbaddon]

we have it easier? so we can beat you 1v1 in melee range right? our only defense is to kite you and that usually doesnt happen. try playing a merc that has no defense or utility what so ever and also has activation timers for most of their abilities and then tell me ranged is op

 

Ok this really winds me up, As a marauder 50% of my time is spent trying to stay alive, now people want to make us even more squishy, ANY ranged class will own a marauder unless we get into melee range, when we do you have more than one way to knock us back stun us ect.

 

As Melee DPS marauders are meant to be deadly in melee combat so what would you want to do, nurf us to high hell so YOUR class can kill us, Hell why not just nurf everything and everyone so YOU can faceroll everyone ffs

[BrutalPain]

If a guardian is hitting you for 7k, get better gear. I'm in almost all BM gear with custom power and surge mods. Most I've ever hit anyone for with sweep was 6.3k when I popped my biochem adrenal and BM power relic, and it was on some poor 12k hp sorc, which implies he had little to no expertise.

 

A guardian is supposed to be the more tanky of the two JKs, yet we're so much squishier than a sent. And they also do just as much dps as we do.

 

So Wrong. I can do 400-500k dps with doing the objectives and focusing down healers. Never saw a marauder do that, and before you say dmg is useless in warzones nah they need to overheal it or they die. Plus i have much better burst dmg as a marauder what is AOE and much better utility. A guardian is not supposed to be more tanky then a marauder or it would be OP as hell. Focus guardians traded survavibility for dmg.

[Xerain]

So Wrong. I can do 400-500k dps with doing the objectives and focusing down healers.

 

yeah marauders can do that too, you just don't know any good mara's... we don't lol smash groups as annihilation spec and we single target damage.

[BrutalPain]

yeah marauders can do that too, you just don't know any good mara's... we don't lol smash groups as annihilation spec and we single target damage.

 

I know some good marauders and yes they can reach 400k dmg but as a rage juggernaut i can reach 400 almost every civil war and huttball and 500 almost every voidstar if we dont roflstomp the enemy team. Marauders are better in some was and yes they designed for surviving burst dmg but they dont have 5-7k AOE burst followed by 3-4k scream. Simple as that.

[mamosh]

yeah also said a few weeks back every class when it pops there defence cool downs it should reduce the dmg done with active

[BrutalPain]

I know some good marauders and yes they can reach 400k dmg but as a rage juggernaut i can reach 400 almost every civil war and huttball and 500 almost every voidstar if we dont roflstomp the enemy team. Marauders are better in some was and yes they designed for surviving burst dmg but they dont have 5-7k AOE burst followed by 3-4k scream. Simple as that.

 

+ they dont have the utility a rage juggernaut have. But they have -healing debuff and party buffs + nice single target dmg + nice survavibility CDs. They are not for the same role they shine in different things.

[Cegenaus]

Learn to kite better.

 

Last time I checked Merc had 2 defensive abilities (heal that can be used with a medpack is the second) and two knockbacks. Then again I am rarely if ever knocked back twice by them, because they are usually horrible. They also don't heal themselves.

 

I love how people act like it is hard to kite on a sorc when you have two stuns a RANGED slow (that none of them even use), a channeled that kites, that idiots cast PAST their proc while kiting (user error). Oh yeah and the best? Roots through full resolve.

 

If you can't kite a marauder/sent for at least 45 seconds? You are plain horrible.

 

Merc/commando? Different story. They have no ranged slow, their dps can be shut down. They have a cast time on their second CC and it doesn't turn into a short stun. They do hit like trucks though.

 

BTW I have to laugh at anyone who would make both a merc and a sorc. I played these classes in beta and was bored out of my freaking mind. Dumbed down shadow priest and an arcane mage is all they are....

 

Please stop acting like there is anything special going on with these classes as far as skill lol. We mastered shadowpriest years ago in WoW and had to shift in and out of shadow to heal/dps. We did it without gaming mice (which makes sage/sorc a joke to play). Arcane mage *cough* Merc/commando? That was even easier...

 

I am sorry to break it to you but anyone topping you on dmg with a sent/marauder can do 1/3rd more with a sage/sorc while making fun of how stupidly easy the class is to play. Merc/Commando? Depends on how dumb the people you are playing are (standing together, not using LOS).

 

im not quite sure how to reply to this since your post is all over the place and contradictory. so here goes:

 

"heal that can be used with a medpack" *** does that mean? do you mean we have a heal? yeah we have a heal, it heals for **** and generates tons of heat

 

two knockbacks huh? have you played a merc before? we have one knockback that knocks you out of melee range and one knockback that doesnt. explain to me how that second knockback is a full knockback?

 

we dont heal ourselves because our heal is S***

 

i think those sorc comments are coming from my sig. #1 he is a healer so i dont really kite anything, i heal the ball carrier until i die or i los so i dont get focused but it never works because people call me out. since he is a healer he doesnt do damage so none of your comments about damage are relevant #2 he is not lvl 50 so he doesnt have a full spec. #3 i dont pvp with him at all

 

last comment: not all of us are wowtards. i have no *********** idea what a shadow priest or an arcane mage is nor do i care. if you are curious i started as an mbh/x44x pistoleer, then i moved to mcomm/tkm, then mdef, then bh again with a commando and a spy. see, i can throw out a bunch of classes too

 

Ok this really winds me up, As a marauder 50% of my time is spent trying to stay alive, now people want to make us even more squishy, ANY ranged class will own a marauder unless we get into melee range, when we do you have more than one way to knock us back stun us ect.

 

As Melee DPS marauders are meant to be deadly in melee combat so what would you want to do, nurf us to high hell so YOUR class can kill us, Hell why not just nurf everything and everyone so YOU can faceroll everyone ffs

 

fyi maras own any class they get into melee range with. they also have a million interrupts and can leap right to me. as a merc the only wz i have an advantage in is huttball because of the catwalks. in the other two wzs its either knock you back and run hoping your leap is on cd but have absolutely no damage or stand and fight toe to toe and get demolished. you also have an advantage over me as a ball carrier being able to leap catwalks and ledges. so who has the upper hand?

 

btw, name where in my post i called for a nerf. anywhere

[FarizAA]

Does not mean its not an immunity. If they have 100hp left and pop this bubble it will literally take 60-70 attacks to kill them.

 

This number is wrong. We can survive up to 1500 attacks with our bubble.

[GrandMike]

It needs to go, I know it, you know it, BW knows it.

 

The sooner the better.

[Nyaara]

You are the type of player who is willing and able to overcome these types of advantages through skill and in depth strategy. You must realize however, that you are part of a VERY small minority.

 

The vast majority of players will take the path of least resistance.

 

Exactly.

 

But the funny thing is that skilled players are proving this Mara/Sent skill is clearly overpowered:

 

Low health + Ful resolve bar + 5 segs inmune to dmg makes this skill very powerful. Too much powerful. And it will be fixed in 1.2 for sure.

 

BW can fix this ability easily. For example, cant be used below 50% health or something like that. You get a bonus (5 segs bubble) but you get the penalty too, a good amount of health and not like right now cos players is using this ability around 10% health and the penalty hurts them like nothing.