1.2's splitting PvP / PvE gear will irreversibly DAMAGE the game.

[Keyran-Halcyon]

First off, I want to explain to the OP how statistical analysis works. From the data you described, they more than likely did a correlation study. And yes there may have been a correlation between the introduction of resilience and a decline of PvP, but the very nature of a correlation statistic means they cannot determine cause and effect. So you cannot say that the introduction of resilience caused PvP to decline, just that there was a potential connection. So just spewing statistics you got from another website doesn't always help you or make your argument stronger. IMO Pvp declined in WOW because they had a crappy pvp system and it just got worse with Cata and the cap they imposed on Arena points and the nerf in general to some intro level PvP gear, which they did because the Pve'ers whined about it being too strong. Wow forced you to Pve because the game had way more Pve content. You could literally get on Wow and in one night get all the possible arena points you could earn in week, done. Then you could either Pvp just for fun or to get you arena rank up, but that was it. The rest of the game was all Pve grind.

 

I love expertise, and I'm happy they are making it better and more of a difference between PvP and Pve gear. I HATE Pve stuff, about the only two reasons I do Pve stuff is for the crafting materials and a few for the story. Otherwise I cannot stand it, completely mindless tasks. The only way to effectively get rid of expertise and avoid splitting the two aspects of any MMO, would be to make the gear you obtain in PvP IDENTICAL to the gear you can obtain in Pve. However the Pve'ers would whine and cry and complain. Because every Pve'er I have met, thinks they deserve to be the best because they grinded all the high end Pve stuff. Been that way on Wow and pretty much all MMO's I've played.

 

I hope bioware continues to make changes for PvP and be one of the few games to show some love to PvP, instead of treating it like a red headed step child like plenty of other mmo's do.

[me_unknown]

ANYONE on that website will agree with you that pvp and pve needs to be separate because pve balance ruins pvp balance and vice versa.

 

not vice versa!

 

pve balance can ruins pvp if you balance it that way. but pvp balance cannot really ruin pve blance as you can always fix it in the enviroment (you know Player Vs Enviroment).

 

that's why regarding class balance you should ALWAYS give priority to pvp! never vice versa!

 

you can always change something on your encoutners/opponents to make any class viable again. pvp balance can't ruin pve balance, not in a way that isn't possible to easily being fixed!

[justahdude]

i fail to see how GEAR places a giant rift between players?!

 

PvE gear is just that PvE gear... One thing you people need to freaking remember is that this game IS NOT WoW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its not going to take your characters ENTIRE career to get the most basic competitive gear to PvP.

 

What i am saying is, what exactly is the problem maintaining Two Different sets of gear?! you do it with your skill trees now, and you dont cry about having to fork over creds for respec?! what swapping gear too much for you?!

 

Essentially what i am seeing here is some lazy people crying about a problem that really isnt there... "QQ i cant pvp with my raid gear that i spent weeks getting" "QQ my raid guildies wont take me out on raids cuz all i got is pvp gear and im too lazy to do a few dalies and HMs first"

 

you know what this sounds like: "QQ this game is too hard, cuz i cant use gear i got at lvl 1 at level 50"

[Murah]

Gear progression has no place in pvp. Even the way it is now, winning in pvp is in part about the gear. It shouldn't be about the gear!

 

I also believe in the philosophy that to be among the best player killers in the game, you should participate in playing the whole game (pve and pvp).

 

To make that happen, a great design would be if gear is rewarded in pve, and skills/abilities are rewarded in pvp. Now everyone is encouraged to play the whole game to be the best.

 

On top of that, gear progression in pve should be minimal.

[Gformutorila]

It works both ways. Just switch places of "PvE" and "PvP".

 

Thats why what they have NOW works.

 

Indeed. I think the people do lost of PvP should also be able to do HM with their gear.

[Lerdoc]

You want to know why Resilience was invented? Because PVE players thought it was mandatory to play PVP to be competitive in pve, and Blizzard didn't want their game to be like that. They wanted you to be able to do whatever you wanted and be just as competitive. Good game design.

 

No, not really.

 

The good design here was with WHO and their wards.

You could PvP in whatever you wanted, your renown rank(valor here) determined what kind of PvP gear tier you could equip and PVE Wards determined what PvE content you could do(5 wards for each main set piece-each ward reduced PVE damage on X tier by 20%, with 0 wards you took 200% PVE damage, with 5, you took 100%). Both PvP and PvE sets had same amount of stats, just different set bonuses and purposes so both, PvE and PvP routes were equal in both, PvP and PvE, no one had superiority over anyone else, PVE wards were obtainable on different ways, you could just get set piece, or kill X players to get X ward.

 

THAT was design that allowed you to do whatever you wanted and be equally competitive on the same tier with no disadvantage other then spec AND when you got ward you didn't really needed that gear piece, you could just switch it for another one that looked better or had stats you liked more, the ward was there permanently.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Lerdoc

[acowie]

I have to strongly agree. I already think that PvP at 50 is imbalanced and poor. They have taken an important part of the endgame and imbalanced it with the PvP gear and forcing all 50's including new 50's to PvP with more hardcore players. I used to enjoy some PvP but since I do not focus on it and attaining the gear has become an even harder grind since it hard to win against people who are in full PvP it has become almost unplayable. If they are going to make the divide even greater you will exclude any 50 level character who did not spend the time while leveling to get enough commendations and valor to be on par with the geared 50 PvP.

 

I personally think it is crucial, especially if the widden the divide to change the system so that lvl 50's not using PvP gear be able to PvP in the same group as as 49 and below. Otherwise they will seriously break a huge part of their end game which is the weakest part of the game.

 

In defense of Bioware I think their method to leveling with the story lines was amazing. I loved and never felt like 1-49 was a grind. Now at 50 between grinding for PvE gear and PvP gear has become like work. Furthermore as stated above PvP has become almost unplayable as other "hardcore" players have attained gear that gices a significant advantage. The problem with this is that unlike not being geared for HM at lvl 50 you can repeate daily missions to get needed mods, get credits to buy some needed gear, or tag along with more geared friends to help you get the gear. Based on the current game design and no drops or missions that give PvP gear and how it binds so it can't be sold there is no way to bridge the gap without just getting beaten over and over.

[justduet]

I dunno, a lot of gladiators can still get glad with ONLY pvp gear, but it feels cheap having to try to beat teams with gear they shouldn't be allowed to use in pvp (legendaries, BiS 25man trinkets, etc).. its basically saying, oh you don't raid so you shouldn't be allowed to have "better" gear in pvp, where its all about skill and NOT gear? What a joke. I don't have time to raid AND pvp, people who want to enjoy one portion of the game should (and those who want to do everything should, at their own expense).

 

If I wanted to pve, I would go down that path and work on getting geared just for pve. If I want to pvp I'll work on that gear, people shouldn't be allowed to have their cake and eat it too unless they take time to do it - that is progression and something necessary in the mmorpg genre. But thats just my opinion, I don't want everything handed to me / available to me even if I have limited playtime (I know a lot of people do though).

[Entropicslide]

Personally I couldn't agree more with the OP. I think that everyone is suffering from a sever case of delusions of grandeur. This is a game, this is not real life, heck we even go buck wild and PAY to play it. I am sick and tired of people wanting harder things just for the sake of others not having it or from a desire to feel "special and unique" I assure you we are all losers there.

 

Having played every mmo under the sun I can honestly tell you I am tired of grinding for gear and not only am I tired of grinding for gear wasting hours of my life to fullfill some entertainment alter ego nerdgasm I find the idea of grinding for two different sets of gear, in a word, madness. I know alot of people will flame me because clearly they think that I'm being lazy but I have a battle master toon and I understand that currently grinding either sets comparitavely is easy. I would like it to stay this casual friendly, although I suspect it will not.

 

I think if you achieve the top tier of either pvp or pve you should be allowed to do whatever content you desire as reward for having defeated your goal be that pve or pvp. I think this whole skipping content issue is an antiquated concept from our grinding hardcore roots. I don't think it should be best in slot but I think the differences should be comparable. I have a job I have a life I can't spend 5 days a week raiding hardmodes like I did in college furthermore I DONT WANT TO. I respect other peoples desire to waste their time and lives on virtual titles that give nothing to them except an ego boost. I'm just tired of the elitism in a game that's just an advanced version of simon says. Pve is the hokey pokey dance with loot the reward for dancing properly. And yea pvp is dynamic, because that sorc you're chasing isn't going to stun sprint and kite you in a repetive fashion. Very dynamic.

 

I think we all need to be honest with ourselves admit that we choose to play this game because it's fun, because it's social, and because it feeds our desires to ram lightsabers through our oponents spines. Not because we want to have a second job grinding 4 sets of gear if you're a hybrid. For those of you bad at math ( 1pve healing/tank 2pvp healing/tank 3pve damage 4pvp damage) Good day sirs. Let the flaming begin.

[xxdragonragexx]

Let's break this down shall we.

 

People that like pvp and hate pve = wants separate gear

People that like pve and hate pvp = wants separate gear

People that like both = wants same gear

 

Looks like democracy takes the lead and we have a winner.

 

There is a reason why we have 2 sets of gear and a reason why dungeons have a lock out timer.

Gear = subscription money

Edited March 12, 2012 by xxdragonragexx

[Retro-]

anyone who is crying because they can't wear there pve gear into pvp should probably not pvp anyways.

[yukirshiro]

Requiring end-game raiding gear to be competitive in PVP is stupid. Period.

[Retro-]

and vice versa if you don't want to work to get pve gear, then don't cry when noone wants to take you on HM's

 

I don't honestly see what the issue is. I myself pvp more than pve, Im a casual player and have no issue with getting myself geared up in champ+ gear.

 

I also understand that if I want to raid with my guild I am going to have to start investing time into getting my gear built up for that...not exactly hard to understand to accept for myself.

[Retro-]

Let's break this down shall we.

 

People that like pvp and hate pve = wants separate gear

People that like pve and hate pvp = wants separate gear

People that like both = wants same gear

 

Looks like democracy takes the lead and we have a winner.

 

There is a reason why we have 2 sets of gear and a reason why dungeons have a lock out timer.

Gear = subscription money

 

 

Still having gear for each separate is fair, in a perfect world everyone would be able to have one set of gear that functions in both pvp and pve, however I have never seen that perfect world, so for now...separate gaer and lets be honest aside from bm or t3 gear is it really that hard to get to t2 gear for pve or pvp? I have seen guys get pretty well geared in like 2 weeks or less. So there really isn't much of a gearing issue if any.

[me_unknown]

Let's break this down shall we.

 

People that like pvp and hate pve = wants separate gear

People that like pve and hate pvp = wants separate gear

People that like both = wants same gear

 

Looks like democracy takes the lead and we have a winner.

 

There is a reason why we have 2 sets of gear and a reason why dungeons have a lock out timer.

Gear = subscription money

 

i like both and want seperate gear.

 

so what now?

[AidenPryde]

I want a gear set for each thing.

 

 

I like having different Goals.

 

Not 1 set of armor and done.

 

I like having 2-3 sets.

 

Why do you like having to sort through 15 pieces of gear to get it right.

 

Am I doing PvP content? Yes.

 

Okay, well what is my expertise rating at? Can I afford to stick a Columi/Rakata piece in there?

 

That kind of thinking and needless complexity boggles my mind.

 

Most of you people in this thread saying it should be separate are WoW vets only. You're not even MMO vets. You have no experience with a game that didn't have a PvP stat.

 

HINT: ONLY ONE OTHER GAME HAS A PVP STAT AND IT'S NAME is World of Warcraft. Which is basically the only other MMO most of you have ever played.

 

Geez people like that are ruining this genre. You have no idea what true PvP is, and that developers can and HAVE balanced PvP and PvE gear progression in the past. DaOC is the best example of this, and most of you never played it.

 

GW1 and GW2 have balanced this and honestly, while I was tired of all the D&D fantasy I might have to give it a try and cancel this sub if Bioware keeps dividing their community.

 

They are going to have to do server mergers soon. 200-300 people online at primetime for most servers is a bad sign. Xfire says 50% or more dropoff since launch. The game is going bye bye right before our eyes and EA CAN AND WILL put this game into maintenance mode just like they did with WaR. And it will be the fault of you WoW "vets" and your crappy community killing design.

Edited March 12, 2012 by AidenPryde

[Retro-]

The one solution I can see is to make all gear stat same so cent/champ/bm gear has the same stats as tion/colum/rakata gear. All the gear has expertise and attritubes for its respective tier.

 

Then you can raid or pvp to your heats content and mix and match the gear you want.

 

If that isn't a good idea to someone then I ask them to be honest with themselves and ask themselves why?

[Retro-]

Why do you like having to sort through 15 pieces of gear to get it right.

 

Am I doing PvP content? Yes.

 

Okay, well what is my expertise rating at? Can I afford to stick a Columi/Rakata piece in there?

 

That kind of thinking and needless complexity boggles my mind.

 

Most of you people in this thread saying it should be separate are WoW vets only. You're not even MMO vets. You have no experience with a game that didn't have a PvP stat.

 

HINT: ONLY ONE OTHER GAME HAS A PVP STAT AND IT'S NAME is World of Warcraft. Which is basically the only other MMO most of you have ever played.

 

Geez people like that are ruining this genre. You have no idea what true PvP is, and that developers can and HAVE balanced PvP and PvE gear progression in the past. DaOC is the best example of this, and most of you never played it.

 

GW1 and GW2 have balanced this and honestly, while I was tired of all the D&D fantasy I might have to give it a try and cancel this sub if Bioware keeps dividing their community.

 

They are going to have to do server mergers soon. 200-300 people online at primetime for most servers is a bad sign. Xfire says 50% or more dropoff since launch. The game is going bye bye right before our eyes and EA CAN AND WILL put this game into maintenance mode just like they did with WaR. And it will be the fault of you WoW "vets" and your crappy community killing design.

 

Agreed, do away with expertise and make both sets of armor pvp/pve viable for raiding and pvp so that anyone can enjoy either content without bashing your head against the wall trying to get two sets of t3 gear.

[Tilure]

The separation of gear was a mistake, it was a bandaid solution that WoW started that became a "good design" idea for every game that followed.

 

Its a solution that creates more problems then it solves.

 

In another thread I mentioned this. Gear is a gateway mechanism. MMOs use gear to control content access. Hence, the term PvE progression. PvP progression is counter productive to encouraging pvp participation.

 

The simple solution is pvp stat capping , no matter what gear you are wearing there is is a cap (which is published and known, for all classes and all attributes). This cap should be easily achievable within the first couple of days of reaching 50.

 

PvP should not be about gear. If MMOs want to create a more balanced experience for "bad" players, the solution is a rating system that ensures players of a similiar skill level are generally matched against each other. Adding gear imbalances simple makes this harder.

 

However, in the end MMOs focus, is to make money and addict players to their game. It seems the easiest way to do this is to associate worth with time played. IE the more you grind in the game the better gear you get, giving you the advantage. Therefore players play more and longer to be the best. This solution has proven easier and more reliable then creating a game that has addictive GAMEPLAY.

[ShadowOfVey]

I liked the setup where pvp gear wasn't optimum for pve but it was sufficient to get in the door, that's good enough for me.

 

I would prefer if pve gear was the same way though, rakata being useful but not on par with pvp gear as it is now (arguably better in fact, depending on the gear setup).

 

But the idea of 1.2 presumably loading up pvp gear with even more expertise, even if they adjust the DR on it so it's desirable to stack it heavily in pvp, will take away the idea of even using it as pve gear. Instead of pvp gear being something to tide you over in pve (but still participate) while you picked up more optimum pve pieces, you might not even be able to join in on things anymore.

[me_unknown]

The separation of gear was a mistake, it was a bandaid solution that WoW started that became a "good design" idea for every game that followed.

 

Its a solution that creates more problems then it solves.

 

i am yet to see any problem beside of fresh 50s crying about older 50s pawning them which would btw. be the same without that stat.

 

expertise and similar fixes a lot of issues. but i do not see any one it has created!

 

without it you have to do pve content, the whole progression as it is. and geuss what, for pve content you still have to do it wiht expertise. so no difference!

 

if anythign than expertise is still FAR TOO WEAK!

[me_unknown]

I

I would prefer if pve gear was the same way though, rakata being useful but not on par with pvp gear as it is now (arguably better in fact, depending on the gear setup).

this sounds viable for now at least. but cosnider that pve means a continues progression, new content being added and thus new gear and better gear. the pve progression would enforce pvp players to grind in pve over and over again to have a fair chance in pvp.

 

that's why a seperation is needed!

[Arkerus]

PvP gear is fine for story mode and even some hard modes.

 

I am not that concerned.

 

However, if PvP gear falls grossly below even story mode I will not be happy. I doubt bioware will make that costly mistake.

[me_unknown]

PvP gear is fine for story mode and even some hard modes.

 

I am not that concerned.

 

However, if PvP gear falls grossly below even story mode I will not be happy. I doubt bioware will make that costly mistake.

 

doesn't sorry mode end before you get 50?^^

 

and btw. i doubt they nerf pvp gear in regards of pve that it won't be viable for heroic fp's. actually it is nearly impossible as 50 greens are enough for any heroic fp.

[Arkerus]

doesn't sorry mode end before you get 50?^^

 

and btw. i doubt they nerf pvp gear in regards of pve that it won't be viable for heroic fp's. actually it is nearly impossible as 50 greens are enough for any heroic fp.

 

 

They are renaming the operation mode "normal" to story mode. It will be the easiest mode and puggable.

 

Hard is becoming the guild standard.

 

Nightmare is the challenge mode.