1.2's splitting PvP / PvE gear will irreversibly DAMAGE the game.

[karnyboy]

only pvp participation fell

 

 

overall subscription number grew from TBC to cataclysm

 

 

in ONE SEASON after resilience overhaul, arena participation fell by 60%

season5 BG9 gladiators: 106 in 2v2, 40 in 3v3, and 9 in 5v5.

 

Ok, I read most of your posts up until this point and you just need to stop. Reason being is you have no idea WHY the numbers fluctuated, you assume you know.

 

I can tell you a different perspective, PvP needs to be differentiated from PvE because without Expertise it then becomes a "Raid or die" mentality.

 

Like one of your first posts said, top guild were kings of BG's in WoW until Resilience came in. I remember that time, I remember being in a BG with a Warrior taking as opposition in Tier 3 right before TBC came out, life was not fun because I could not raid, but I had plenty of time to pvp and I HAD TO RAID TO GET GEAR...that was way more hours then I could physically put in and as a result I lost out on what I enjoyed of the game because someone else could raid top end pve gear?

 

See my point?

 

 

Expertise is a PvP stat, you want to PvP you play PvP to get PvP gear. I further encourage a gap between PvE gear and PvP gear.

 

If you want to kick *** in PvP get a team, get expertise, get what you need to succeed.

 

 

 

Like wise for PvE.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm out going to work, this thread is closed.

[Olympic]

PvP gear should stay in PvP, PvE gear should stay in PvE. That's it.

 

There should be no separation of the two. "Gear" should work for both activities.

 

The intent of the OP is correct imo, having to gear sets and dividing the community along PvP/PvE lines is, and has been, a bad idea.

[venjinze]

There should be no separation of the two. "Gear" should work for both activities.

 

The intent of the OP is correct imo, having to gear sets and dividing the community along PvP/PvE lines is, and has been, a bad idea.

 

of course there should be a distinct difference between the sets of gear, they are used for different purposes. If your main focus is PvE, why should you be as competitive in PvP as someone else who's main focus is PvP? or vice versa.

 

this thread is completely nonsensical and the op contradicts themselves in every other post

 

Your focus is PvP, you don't like to PvE but you PvE for 'fun' with friends/guild mates or whomever, you feel as if you can't do this because you are raiding in full PvP gear. Ok, so spend a week in some HM ops and get some columi pieces, PvE gear is ridiculously easy to aquire. If you ran a 16man normal op, you'd probably come out with 3 or 4 pieces of gear. It comes down to being lazy, that's all it is. Again, gear in this game is trivial to obtain. If you're a casual player, this doesn't mean you have to spend countless hours doing either activity. Raiding is what? 1 night a week? Takes a couple hours in this game at most. You can get your PvP dailies done in an hour or so if you know what you're doing.

 

Stop crying about such trivial subjects, that's all this whole thread is. I bet the same people on this thread are the ones whining about how PvP should be about skill and not gear. IRONY?

[Orielensis]

I am more concerned that pvp-specific gear will not be worth getting in 1.2, only pve gear.

 

If all top tier and orange gear is fully moddable, the best pvp gear will be crafted gear with augment slots, filled with mainly mods from top tier pve gear and a bit of stuff from pvp sets to add expertise.

 

If gear was fully modable right now someone with all rakata mods plus the mods carrying the expertise up to about 600 total from BM gear would have a massive advantage over someone wearing unmodded BM (or BM optimised with some champ mods).

 

Surely the best pvp gear shouldn't require you to run HM/NM ops to get?

[Antipathize]

I don't see why they can't just swap out everyone's gear with a pvp set when you queue up. Think of it as a battle uniform. Give higher valor people the ability to change colors or make other cosmetic changes. The uniforms should differ by class of course. Give war heros a group buff ability of 5% damage reduction once per warzone. (can't be stacked or used by other war heros) and let it debuff on death.

[venjinze]

I don't see why they can't just swap out everyone's gear with a pvp set when you queue up. Think of it as a battle uniform. Give higher valor people the ability to change colors or make other cosmetic changes. The uniforms should differ by class of course. Give war heros a group buff ability of 5% damage reduction once per warzone. (can't be stacked or used by other war heros) and let it debuff on death.

 

So PvPers get your set of PvE gear when we step into a hm/nm op? oh wait then why bother PvEing...?

[Anbokr]

Top PVP gear should be just above story mode pve gear (imo), and top level pvp gear should be just above champion in 1.2 (unfortunately expertise kinda kills this). WoW wasn't fun when gear completely carried over from PvE to PvP, as it required many to go to PvE tp acquire gear (before arenas, it was much easier just to raid and get gear than grind for grand marshal). It also usually resulted in the best PvErs with the most legendaries dominating PvP with gear; not skill.

 

I like the idea of the two overlapping a little bit, to smooth the transition, but it's tough with expertise--which is a necessary evil as said earlier. The problem I have is, War Hero gear will most likely be a very very long grind to deter the 24/7 hour warzone pvpers from getting it all in the first week; unfortunately this hurts the people that warzone 1-2 hours everyday and the people that raid 9+ hours a week. The advantage of a daily bag system or the way arena points are set up in WoW; is it takes the sense of grinding away (the WoW one moreso than the bag system), and nobody likes grinding.

[Antipathize]

Did I say that, or are you straw manning? I won't even argue with such a thinly veiled attempt at trolling.

[Antipathize]

Top PVP gear should be just above story mode pve gear (imo), and top level pvp gear should be just above champion in 1.2 (unfortunately expertise kinda kills this). WoW wasn't fun when gear completely carried over from PvE to PvP, as it required many to go to PvE tp acquire gear (before arenas, it was much easier just to raid and get gear than grind for grand marshal). It also usually resulted in the best PvErs with the most legendaries dominating PvP with gear; not skill.

 

I like the idea of the two overlapping a little bit, to smooth the transition, but it's tough with expertise--which is a necessary evil as said earlier. The problem I have is, War Hero gear will most likely be a very very long grind to deter the 24/7 hour warzone pvpers from getting it all in the first week; unfortunately this hurts the people that warzone 1-2 hours everyday and the people that raid 9+ hours a week. The advantage of a daily bag system or the way arena points are set up in WoW; is it takes the sense of grinding away (the WoW one moreso than the bag system), and nobody likes grinding.

 

Expertise makes everything about gear, not skill. The only problem I see with removing it and completely redoing how gear operates in pvp, is that it would highlight class imbalances, and the warzones aren't entertaining enough to keep people in them.

[Olympic]

of course there should be a distinct difference between the sets of gear, they are used for different purposes. If your main focus is PvE, why should you be as competitive in PvP as someone else who's main focus is PvP? or vice versa.

 

this thread is completely nonsensical and the op contradicts themselves in every other post

 

Your focus is PvP, you don't like to PvE but you PvE for 'fun' with friends/guild mates or whomever, you feel as if you can't do this because you are raiding in full PvP gear. Ok, so spend a week in some HM ops and get some columi pieces, PvE gear is ridiculously easy to aquire. If you ran a 16man normal op, you'd probably come out with 3 or 4 pieces of gear. It comes down to being lazy, that's all it is. Again, gear in this game is trivial to obtain. If you're a casual player, this doesn't mean you have to spend countless hours doing either activity. Raiding is what? 1 night a week? Takes a couple hours in this game at most. You can get your PvP dailies done in an hour or so if you know what you're doing.

 

Stop crying about such trivial subjects, that's all this whole thread is. I bet the same people on this thread are the ones whining about how PvP should be about skill and not gear. IRONY?

 

Well I say "of course there shouldn't". Why? Because its stupid.

[JackMinn]

of course there should be a distinct difference between the sets of gear, they are used for different purposes. If your main focus is PvE, why should you be as competitive in PvP as someone else who's main focus is PvP? or vice versa.

 

this thread is completely nonsensical and the op contradicts themselves in every other post

 

Wait wut? Why exactly should one have to specifically acquire a set to do a certain activity?

 

People here just dont get it whatsoever. Its like you are all so damn clueless about how pvp operates. Pvp strives off activity, lots of people to play against and fast que times. Putting barriers on gear participation is completely contrary to the concept of promoting activity.

 

Again... why exactly does someone have to grind pvp to be able to actually pvp? If anything we should be encouraging pvers to pvp or viceverse, not telling pvers to go away because they dont have expertise on their gear and didnt spend time like us. Pvp gear is in games simply to give pvp exclusively players a way to gear up, not as a requirement to actually do the pvp. The very thought of demanding a player to have certain gear to participate is mind boggling.

 

Point is, you want to PROMOTE people to pvp, not enforce BARRIERS. And well you simply dont get that....

 

And before you start yes I have full rakata and full BM. But I want more people entering pvp so I dont wait 15-20 min per que everyday on what was advertised as the 2nd most active pvp server EU on launch. This game is losing subs and people still want to further divide the player base... retarded.

[Hairyzac]

Hey, Luciela here:

 

I stopped posting in this forum for a long time. I read somewhere patch 1.2 preview that bioware will be changing (probably buffing) expertise so that PvP and PvE gears will be even more incompatible.

 

 

After reading that, I'd have to stress that: splitting PvP / PvE gear will IRREVERSIBLY damage this game.

 

 

Making PvP and PvE incompatible with each other itemwise, will also further fuel the schism between PvP and PvE community. Many players tend to focus largely on progressing in either PVP or PVE, and are unwilling to invest in the less favorable gear. (I.E. I mainly play pvp. do operation in pvp gear 'for fun')

 

PVP/PVE gear incompatibility will further cause characters to be "specialized" in PvP or PvE. Since PVE gears will perform poorly in PVP, PVEers will be discouraged from playing PVP, and vice versa. This divide will be irreversible, since most PVPers will end up hating PVE, while PVEers will end up hating PVP.

 

In long story short, you plan to force players into dividing between PVP and PVE, and only let them play "half the game".

 

 

 

 

 

Exact same thing is what happened in WoW:

 

 

Remember in vanilla and burning crusade WoW, TOP pve guilds in the world also ran the top pvp teams? If you know any names, guilds such as Nihilum and SK Gaming excelled in both pvp and pve, with arena teams in SK top 200 arena list, blizzcon, MLG, and world first kills on virtually all bosses. Today, not only is such a thing unimaginable, but also there is so much hate between PvP and PvE community. So many posts scream "shut up pvp guy" or "pve is killing pvp" - sometimes I wonder how they even tolerate playing the same game with one another.

 

 

How did this all happen? It is because of resilience (same stat as expertise in SWTOR). TIMELINE:

 

1. Vanilla WoW - complete lack of resilience. Most players participate in both pve and pvp.

 

 

2. In the burning crusade expansion, resilience is introduced. However, TBC resilience only reduced damage from DOT and criticals, and was nowhere as good as it is today. This therefore made PvP gears subpar for raiding. However, (since resilience wasn't that great), some PvE gear gave large advantage in arena, and thought by some to be "required" for competitive PVP.

 

However, even this disadvantage wasn't as big as you think. One of my high school friends and his brother who played in BG9 ran the highest rated rogue + disc priest 2v2 in the world, with ZERO PvE gear. All other rogues they faced at their ratings were loaded with pve gears and dual warglaives of azzinoth (rogue were one of the more PVE gear dependent classes in TBC)

 

 

3. In wrath of the lich king expansion, blizzard completely overhauls resilience. It is now completely impossible to play competitively using PvE gears in PvP and vice versa. WoW community [permanently] splits into PVE and PVP. Most of the PvP imbalances are largely ignored throughout the expansion ("resilience will fix it" mentality by developers).

 

 

4. Over the years, Blizzard patches mostly according to numbers generated in PvE. Results: even more class imbalance in PvP. Animosity between pvp and pve communities further increases.

 

 

5. Fueled by schism between PvP / PvE and exacerbated by imbalance issues, PvP participation in wow declines DRAMATICALLY over time.

 

If you want to see the statistics, it is as following. Note: Gladiator = assigned to top 0.5% team on ladder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Will this really happen to SWTOR? WoW and SWTOR are different games - no one can predict what will happen to this game.

 

 

Right now, I wear full battlemasters gear and have no problem running hard mode operations. PvE gears are also largely useable in PvP too, as long as one has 400+ expertise. Apparently, for whatever reason bioware doesn't want that, which I guess furthers their trend of copying only the bad part of wow, while ignoring the good part in an effort to appear different :/.

 

A piece of advice from Luciela - don't make PvE and PvP gears incompatible.

 

 

This is the silliest thing I have ever read. Of course the best PVE guilds MOSTLY dominated in classic WOW because they had access to gear no one else could obtain at those periods of time.

 

Even so the statement only proved true if the people they played were bads like a lot of people were. You may know of a guild called Gentlemen's Club. They still get high ranked world kills today, and my CP team would destroy them every time back in classic in WSG and beat them 9 times out of 10 in BASIN. I mean, we were the best cp team on the server and probably one of the best or the best, as Stormreaver was the most active and competitive server in the US at that period of time. Regardless, this would be the case on most servers if your team played together on a daily basis with the same people.

 

Everyone knows and agrees it isn't fair to PVE, get awesome gear, and have it be awesome in PVP as well. The reason resilience/expertise was implemented into mmo's was for this very reason. I'd be surprised if one single person agreed with anything you said in your post really....it was disturbing.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Hairyzac

[Hairyzac]

this is why they shouldn't even have expertise

 

 

it 'prohibits' people from enjoying both parts of the game. what kind of game company would do taht?

 

OH? You are unable to que for war zones in PVE gear? You can't participate in world PVP in PVE gear? I was unaware of this. When did this change occur?

[Pcolapat]

They are considering story mode operations for those who only have PVP gear. You will be able to complete that and experience the entire game. There will also be ranked and unranked PVP. Those with just raid gear will be able to jump into an unranked PVP match and do okay. They will not be world beaters, but hey, they obviously can't complain if they don't PVP all that much.

 

I will have best in slot gear for both activities because I am just too hype. Caint touch this do do do do

Edited March 15, 2012 by Pcolapat

[JackMinn]

OH? You are unable to que for war zones in PVE gear? You can't participate in world PVP in PVE gear? I was unaware of this. When did this change occur?

 

Dont see why you are trying to hard to humiliate him, especially considering he actually is a good players who understood a lot of the game mechanics early on.

 

I also see his point completley valid and believe a pvp stat should be removed. Pvp gear and pve gear in their final tiers should be mirror equals stat wise. And the time investement to get either set should be equal as well.

 

After that if some guy spends months pveing and comes to pvp then he should be allowed to compete with gear equivalent to mine. My advantage is that I played the pvp more and I should understand the mechanics better. Afterwards if he also learns the mechanics then he becomes valid competition. And anyone seeking to better pvp should be all for enlarging the pool of good players in the game to promote more competition.

 

All in all, im sorry but I dont see the problem with the OP's vision. If anything hes got it right and you have got it wrong.

[venjinze]

Did I say that, or are you straw manning? I won't even argue with such a thinly veiled attempt at trolling.

 

It's not a troll, its in direct contrast to what you said. You won't respond because you have no arguement. Why should you have to put work into PvE and not into PvP? You're point of view is clearly that of someone who primarily PvE's and are too lazy to put work into PvP, its a unilateral point of view. I just gave you a scenario that was opposite to what you had said. Not hard to figure out.

Edited March 15, 2012 by venjinze

[_Hibbs]

The reason for having separate gear for PvP and PvE is to prevent players from skipping over the content. End-game PvP is a different time sink than PvE. The devs don't want someone getting all the PvP gear then jumping to do the top tier Operations and miss out on the earlier Operation content. Same goes the other way, they don't want a top tier raider to hop into PvP and bypass all the PvP content (there is no real content progression for PvP, but its the same idea. To be allowed to compete with the top end PvPers, you are supposed to earn it by going through the standard PvP warzone quota).

 

IMO BioWare is on the right track with this. They have stated that they don't want to use gated systems that lock you out completely (aka raid keying to force you to play through the mind numbingly easy content first to be allowed into the challenging stuff), so making gear, modified slightly by player skill, the determining factor is good. If a group is just really good at the game, they may be able to skip tier one content, but generally you flow through the content as you get the better gear. They don't want you to get the good gear from one content path and use it to skip over most of the other content path.

 

If you want to play both types of content, then just build up two sets of gear.

 

This guy is 100% right. Like the OP, I too was also against Bioware splitting the gear because I want to play both PvE and PvP in SWTOR.

 

After reading this post, I realized that the gear is split for precisely this reason! A bifurcated gear structure incentivizes players to experience the whole of PvE and PvP (or at least a larger chunk), not just the end of it. That's an excellent reason as far as I'm concerned and it's not a bad thing at all if you truly want to get the most out of both PvE and PvP experiences.

[vimm]

I don't want to do pve content. It is the same in this game as every game like it before it. I want to pvp. I like pvp because the players I face are more dynamic (most of the time) than some scripted encounter that follows the same rules every time you do it.

 

Allowing pve gear to outshine pvp gear (or even have a place in pvp) forces me to do pve to compete in pvp. I really do not want this. I can't imagine slugging through the ops and HMs over and over doing the exact same thing just to have the gear I need to be viable in pvp.

 

Sure, I play huttball over and over, but it is always different. Ops bossses are always the same. Always. It is fun a few times, then its stale, to me, anyway. I know that is a fun aspect for many, and that is great! I am glad the game has an outlet for those people's passions.

 

Mine, however, is pvp. I want to log in for a bit, pvp with all 4 of my pvp characters, do the dailies, see who is playing, and crush some skulls (or get crushed, depending on who I am facing).

 

The day I have to trudge through Ops every week to be able to compete in pvp is the day I hang it up.

 

You do have to, if you want the absolute best gear; it's a mix of Rakata/BM. You'll also need to go through for Alloy, of you're Biochem.

 

It is a shame that PvP isn't seen as a legitamite play style by developers. You HAVE to PvE to facilitate PvP in every MMO, but not the other way around.

[Antipathize]

OH? You are unable to que for war zones in PVE gear? You can't participate in world PVP in PVE gear? I was unaware of this. When did this change occur?

 

Participating in pvp is like participating in a little league game. You get a trophy anyway. Also the opposing team has major league players because they have participated in more games.

 

Just come out and admit it guys. The only pvpers that like expertise and pvp-specific gear that offers advantages over pve gear are those that thrive off the disparity. You can be lazier, not have to play as hard, and I'd your team has better gear overall, you get more wins. Yes there are flukes and some people "can" beat higher geared players, but these are generally exceptions.

 

You can have progression without inequality. The titles don't matter now because you can earn them afking in (insert number) warzones. Same with the gear. The only reason to be upset is that you got ganked for x amount of games, and now you feel like you "earned" the right to gank some people.

[Hairyzac]

Dont see why you are trying to hard to humiliate him, especially considering he actually is a good players who understood a lot of the game mechanics early on.

 

I also see his point completley valid and believe a pvp stat should be removed. Pvp gear and pve gear in their final tiers should be mirror equals stat wise. And the time investement to get either set should be equal as well.

 

After that if some guy spends months pveing and comes to pvp then he should be allowed to compete with gear equivalent to mine. My advantage is that I played the pvp more and I should understand the mechanics better. Afterwards if he also learns the mechanics then he becomes valid competition. And anyone seeking to better pvp should be all for enlarging the pool of good players in the game to promote more competition.

 

All in all, im sorry but I dont see the problem with the OP's vision. If anything hes got it right and you have got it wrong.

 

 

You can que solo ranked war zone matches and get THE BEST pvp gear free with zero requirements. You, along with the OP, are QQ'ers who want to be rewarded two times over for sitting in a dungeon killing an npc. The density of this thread is staggering.

 

The last sentence of your post, is one of the silliest things I've ever read since reading the OP. Regardless, expertise will remain and never be removed. Your posts are truly in vain. Do something productive with your time instead of wasting it here.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Hairyzac

[venjinze]

Participating in pvp is like participating in a little league game. You get a trophy anyway. Also the opposing team has major league players because they have participated in more games.

 

Just come out and admit it guys. The only pvpers that like expertise and pvp-specific gear that offers advantages over pve gear are those that thrive off the disparity. You can be lazier, not have to play as hard, and I'd your team has better gear overall, you get more wins. Yes there are flukes and some people "can" beat higher geared players, but these are generally exceptions.

 

You can have progression without inequality. The titles don't matter now because you can earn them afking in (insert number) warzones. Same with the gear. The only reason to be upset is that you got ganked for x amount of games, and now you feel like you "earned" the right to gank some people.

 

I face people in equivalant gear, rated will force this to occur more often than not. I get more satisfaction facing a fully geared premade and winning or losing than I do rolling over people in lesser gear. You just keep speculating there buddy. My server is full of battlemasters and most people have champion gear, your arguement is moot at this point.

[Antipathize]

I face people in equivalant gear, rated will force this to occur more often than not. I get more satisfaction facing a fully geared premade and winning or losing than I do rolling over people in lesser gear. You just keep speculating there buddy. My server is full of battlemasters and most people have champion gear, your arguement is moot at this point.

 

I'm glad your anecdotal evidence is so solid.

 

"I face people in equivalent gear"

"I get more satisfaction facing a fully geared premade and winning or losing than I do rolling over people in lesser gear"

 

Does not compute.

 

What you have done is convince yourself that you face equal teams, but as far as I am aware, you can only queue 4 people max. You might get lucky with the pugs, or you might not. Even if I grant you the possibility that everyone on your server has equal gear, there should be no reason for you to object to everyone instantly being placed at the same level.

 

I am speculating here, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't know what you're talking about.

[Antipathize]

It's not a troll, its in direct contrast to what you said. You won't respond because you have no arguement. Why should you have to put work into PvE and not into PvP? You're point of view is clearly that of someone who primarily PvE's and are too lazy to put work into PvP, its a unilateral point of view. I just gave you a scenario that was opposite to what you had said. Not hard to figure out.

 

I actually pve rarely. The reason I didn't want to get into it, is because pvp and pve are seperate games. Just as mechanics in every other game changes when you face players. First person shooters don't take the same mechanics as their single-player portion, neither should you compare the pve portion of the game to pvp.

 

You put work into pve because your enemies actually get harder. The only time pvp should be harder is if the enemy is faster, more agile, or smarter than you.

[djtrav]

The way I see it, if you put the time and effort into pve gear (to organize with a team) and someone else put the time and effort into pvp, why should pve'er not have the same gear to compete in pvp and pvp'er have the same gear to do pve? why cant they match each other?

[venjinze]

I'm glad your anecdotal evidence is so solid.

 

"I face people in equivalent gear"

"I get more satisfaction facing a fully geared premade and winning or losing than I do rolling over people in lesser gear"

 

Does not compute.

 

What you have done is convince yourself that you face equal teams, but as far as I am aware, you can only queue 4 people max. You might get lucky with the pugs, or you might not. Even if I grant you the possibility that everyone on your server has equal gear, there should be no reason for you to object to everyone instantly being placed at the same level.

 

I am speculating here, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Your arguement is that people who solely PvE and sometimes want to PvP should just have their gear 'transform' into a viable PvP set upon entering a warzone. I asked you if this would apply to people who place priority on PvP and want to PvE on occasion, would they suddenly have a relevant set of PvE gear upon entering an operation with a set difficulty?

 

AGAIN, rated makes your point moot. I can't help if you're inept, sir. If you can't respond to your oringal statement, find someone else to 'troll'.