Norml Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) I have PVE'd for quite a few years. Its fairly easy on solo missions, and with a group of friends the heard mode flashpoints are fun, ya gota all be on your game, work together. PvP can be fun. But i havta say that when i pvp all day and cant get a win, its not really much fun. I would like to know that guy X beat me cause hes just the man when it comes to his toon, not cause he just got the best gear. a dedicated pvp'er saying that if the gear aint worthit, i aint gona pvp is kinda foolish. (so you can only win pvp by having better gear?) really! i am not the best with my toon but would not like to know that i lost because he has the best gear you can get. I have Cent gear and i gota say, i cant get close to BM guys, they kill me quick, and i cant seem to hurt em. Half done with my Champ gear and things are better but a BM geared toon is tough to kill, if at all. Im sorry but i wana know if im doing it wrong. Edited March 22, 2012 by Paralassa content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadian Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Oh, I think I understand now. You're arguing against a completely different point (and one that I have never, ever made). If you're arguing against a complete removal of PvP gear, then I guess we agree. Expertise exists so PvE heroes don't steamroll PvP players because of their legendaries, etc. My stance was just that ranked WZs should not offer better stat rewards to higher rated players, because it hurts the spirit of competition that ranked WZs are trying to create. Yeah, as I posted earlier, he is "chasing a ghost." He is arguing against the removal of PVP gear, although I am not sure who he is arguing against... Because as I laid out in my lengthy post, we pretty much agree. Edited March 16, 2012 by Gadian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venjinze Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Yeah, as I posted earlier, he is "chasing a ghost." He is arguing against the removal of PVP gear, although I am not sure who he is arguing against... Because as I laid out in my lengthy post, we pretty much agree. You kidding? Every page on this thread someone is stating to remove PvP gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadian Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Im sorry but i wana know if im doing it wrong. Hard to say, because of the gear disparity. Perfect example of what I am talking about. Let skill/tactics, not gear, be the determining factor. But according to some people you should be a BM by now. It is super easy to get, and if you say otherwise, you are a liar. Edited March 22, 2012 by Paralassa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadian Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 You kidding? Every page on this thread someone is stating to remove PvP gear. Well then I'm with you against those people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incendergel Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 If you read the OPs post, to which we are replying, we aren't complaining about the current grind (although it could be shorter) but we are opposing the OP's paradigm that PVP MUST reward gear for grinding. Just a philosophical difference between PVEers and PVPers I suppose. This is not a false statement. It is 100% a true statement. The phrase "whee bit of work," is not an objective measurement. It is a matter of degree. You dismantle your own argument when you say that it is determined by "your own style of play." So you openly admit it is a matter of degree, which you correctly pointed out is based on your style of play. You just disagree with the level of degree, not the statement itself (even if you don't realize it) - perhaps so much that it made you angry enough to call anyone who plays less than you a "liar." But that does not make it a false statement. Cool. That seems like an exaggeration, but I'm not going to call you a flat-out liar like you called me. It could just be because que times are longer when I play at night and the games are more competitive and thus longer. I really shouldn't have responded. Your post, and this response, really don't add anything are are simply tangential to an otherwise beaten-to-death post that simply highlights the philosophical differences between PVPers and PVEers. But I couldn't resist. It isn't calling you a liar per say, but a false statement for which I'm calling. Point being, which I believe you are aware of, is that Bioware already addressed the gearing issue for people who just start the game. No differently than what they have already done for people wanting to start PvE'ing. Both require a bit of effort is all. To say people who are BM's or with BM gear have no-life or have more time to play than anyone else is a false statement. Are you, or even I, at a disadvantage because they got to play the game during the head start? It is, almost, saying the same thing. They had a unfair advantage because they got to play anywhere from 1 to 7 days earlier than either of us. That is my point - let neither of us say there are not options to get gear once we reach lvl 50. If anyone here truely wants to pvp like that - on equal ground, then you need to find a collective like minded group, meet, and have at it. Just not sure how much fun it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incendergel Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Hard to say, because of the gear disparity. Perfect example of what I am talking about. Let skill/tactics, not gear, be the determining factor. But according to some people you should be a BM by now. It is super easy to get, and if you say otherwise, you are a liar. It is easy - bioware made it as such. If you are such a excellent pvp'er and want skill / tactics to make or break the game head out to Ilum or any other world location, strip down, and have at it. Let us see how long that lasts. It is there for you or anyone else to do. And for the record - the liar/false statement was directed at saying it takes time / effort to get gear...nice try to spin it though. We all know the changes they made. Edited March 16, 2012 by Incendergel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portichae Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 The question is why are you trying to change the nature of people? Its quite simple, people want some kind of progression. Its what they as paying customers want, its futile to come here and try to change their morals with regards to pvp. If they will be satisfied with gear that is like 4% better than whats wrong with that? Theres no point sitting down and trying to convince them that all along their ideals of gaming are wrong. Especially when the reality of MMOs are that people play for progression of some sort. Im sure you realize as I have said before, MMOs do not atract competitive pvpers who simply want to pvp for the sake of it. This games pvp is nothing awesome, its just entertaining at best. People want that carrot on the stick to keep going. If they want fair, fun pvp, there are just several other games that do it better. And hey lets face it, as I have said before, this games graphics are pretty bad. The art design on armor is poor, and there is very little pride in the gear people are wearing. Most people even look the same, so a "different color" concept for gear is just sooo bad. Perhaps something like a cool aura as someone mentioned, maybe different hues of glowing red/purple etc for high ranked empire players, and blue/white for republic players. But as it stands the rewards are just weak, and its hard to argue against this. Honestly this game had so much funding. On the other hand a game like Guild Wars that came out in 2005 was hosting cash based prizes, real incentives for people to play and be competitive. I am not here to fanboy Guild Wars or GW2, I am simply offering a different perspective and pointing out that the reality is this game is falling short. If they even took out 2 million from their 200-300 million budget and used it for cash prizes for pvp across a year long season this games pvp would be blooming. Why do you people who want WoW andWAR gear style PvP keep bringing up GW2? With the exception of WvW (WHICH IS TREATED AS A PVE INSTANCE) GW has NEVER nor will it ever allow a system as stupidly idiotic as gear progression have any influence on Competitive PvP. Stop refering to a game that you will never play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysticjbyrd Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 He is the typical pvp player. He thinks he is a better player, thus deserves better gear. However, in reality he is usually a better player BECAUSE he has better gear. The thing is he knows this, at least subconsciously anyways, and thats why he is being emo and threatening to quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 It is easy - bioware made it as such. If you are such a excellent pvp'er and want skill / tactics to make or break the game head out to Ilum or any other world location, strip down, and have at it. Let us see how long that lasts. It is there for you or anyone else to do. And for the record - the liar/false statement was directed at saying it takes time / effort to get gear...nice try to spin it though. We all know the changes they made. Because stripping down and basically dueling on Ilum is EXACTLY THE SAME as fighting players on equal footing in a competitive ladder ranking scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadian Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 It is easy - bioware made it as such. If you are such a excellent pvp'er and want skill / tactics to make or break the game head out to Ilum or any other world location, strip down, and have at it. Let us see how long that lasts. It is there for you or anyone else to do. If that is the best scenario you can come up with to improve PVP, other than rewarding grinders with gear, then this discussion has come to an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadian Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Because stripping down and basically dueling on Ilum is EXACTLY THE SAME as fighting players on equal footing in a competitive ladder ranking scenario. At this point I think he is just trolling. There is nothing more to say that hasn't already been said in the 127 pages and counting. There is just a philosophical difference: 1) people who view it as a sport or competition 2) people who view it as a treadmill to get gear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portichae Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Because stripping down and basically dueling on Ilum is EXACTLY THE SAME as fighting players on equal footing in a competitive ladder ranking scenario. If you are comparing dueling or world style PvP to competitive ladder based PvP you know very little about actual competitive pvp. Thank you for acknowledging this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proppa Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Why would you play a game that isn't skill based? I guess you just like to win, like playing GOD MODE in DOOM. No skill makes me lose interest. Most of my guild mates are thinking of quiting this game as they aren't interested in the gear grind. See lots of chat saying the same thing in general. They need to make 2 different server types, 1 for gear-grinders and 1 for skill based players who want equal gear. Please everyone that way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 If you are comparing dueling or world style PvP to competitive ladder based PvP you know very little about actual competitive pvp. Thank you for acknowledging this. Are you talking to me or the guy that I quoted? <.< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portichae Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Are you talking to me or the guy that I quoted? <.< I don't know anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incendergel Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 He is the typical pvp player. He thinks he is a better player, thus deserves better gear. However, in reality he is usually a better player BECAUSE he has better gear. The thing is he knows this, at least subconsciously anyways, and thats why he is being emo and threatening to quit. Or he or she wants to play a MMO which is typically progressive by nature? Or he or she didn't say they are a better play due to gear, but want gear, to look forward to or progress their avatar further just like people who pve do. Or he or she want something a bit different than color which shows their skill? It is what it is - but don't try and paint someone something they are not. No one that I've seen argue about progression said they are better because they have gear. They are saying gear, the initial investment, isn't has hard as people make it sound. Thus the comments about patching it in, swapping dailies around, etc. Have to admit though that this debate, argument is a lot like peeing in the wind. I'm guessing a lot of people have wet spots on their pant legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadian Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) I don't know anymore... You should be directing your post to Incendergel, who Varicite was sarcastically quoting. Edited March 16, 2012 by Gadian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bamajawn Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Have to admit though that this debate, argument is a lot like peeing in the wind. I'm guessing a lot of people have wet spots on their pant legs. Not me... you see, I'm a RANGED pee v pee er.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portichae Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) You should be directing your post to Incendergel, who Varicite was sarcastically quoting. Eh, I don't care anymore. I won't miss most of these people once GW2 comes out. I miss competitive PvP. I don't play SWTOR for its pvp system or as a MMO for that matter. I wanted KOTOR 2 and i'm settling for this. Edited March 16, 2012 by portichae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incendergel Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 If that is the best scenario you can come up with to improve PVP, other than rewarding grinders with gear, then this discussion has come to an end. You haven't read the whole thread then, have you? That was in reference to people saying they want to pvp to have fun and not be at a gear advantage. However, this utopia doesn't exist today because it can't. People who have datacrons have more stats. More stats mean higher crit, health, etc. Agreed? So what you have then is the 10 - 49 bracket today or meeting up somewhere and trying to get as equal as you possibly can, nothing but what you are born with, and pvp. I'm just saying I'm not sure how much fun that will be or how long it will last. Improve pvp? 1. Address population imbalance. It is clear this is a bigger issue than what we are lead to believe. Top 4 classes are imperial, 5th is republic. Just saying. 2. Incentive world pvp. Grant valor per kill regardless of location. 3. Ban kill/win trading 4. Filter PvE gear so it can't be used in rated warzones, Filter PvP gear so it can't be used in instances 5. Remove gear pvp progression 6. Tie legacy to PvP progression 6a. Could be cool down, could be ability, could be former set bonus - have options 7. Create web portal, tie weekly and monthly stats 7a. highest, lowest hits or damage, medal count, kills, death, ratios 8. Create guild alliance (for world pvp communication), allows small guilds and large to work yet keep personalization There are 8 off the top of my head I could go on but why bother. It is going to get worse if they add damage meters or allow mixing of PvE gear with PvP. The utopia that you want won't exist and it can't unless they strip everything away including datacron buffs. Pretty difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varicite Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Eh, I don't care anymore. I won't miss most of these people once GW2 comes out. I miss competitive PvP. I don't play SWTOR for its pvp system or as a MMO for that matter. I wanted KOTOR 2 and i'm settling for this. There already is a KotOR 2... <.< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunkShizzle Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) i got news for you, you yourself should not be calling yourself a pvper, as any real pvper knows REAL pvp is open world guild vs guild 50 v 50 with no real rewards but bragging rights. i think the real pvpers in this game 1.already left,because the pvp so far ive expieranced was meh at best 2.dont really care,because they already relize the game was more focused towards story then it was pvp.but are probably on there way out of the door because guild wars 2 and tera but i could be wrong.i mean,im only lvl 27 so maybe theres a difference between 1-49 pvp and lvl 50 pvp Edited March 16, 2012 by CrunkShizzle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillack Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 So OP just wants to faceroll new 50's with his epeen? The challenge and ranking isn't what he looks for in PvP? Pew pew pew "Pwn you nubs!!!!11!1!!!!" is what he seems to be looking for. In all honesty it seems the ones he's talking about are those who pvp solely to put people dow nand just own 24/7. I never feel sorry for those people. And hey...I thought pvp servers were about challenges..you know, like working for the new armor sets every once in awhile....guess the WoW refugees and the new age gamers don't under that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunkShizzle Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 2. Incentive world pvp. Grant valor per kill regardless of location. what incentive do people need besides killing the other faction,thats what real pvpers are.the ones that pvp for the enjoyment of pvp,not because they just want "phat loots"so there pvping to get them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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