Clearing up the facts about Pyrotech.

[Obie_Wan]

Yes i agree that the burst of PT is nasty when they get procs but then again it´s quite easy to shutdown with keeping your range and cleasing the debuff no burning effect = no rail shot (not all classes can do this ofc) and since there are no dmg meters yet you can´t see how the PT pyro stands against Merc pyro but i haven´t met a PT that has done more dmg than me on a same WZ (not saying that they don´t exist). But if they go ahead and nerf the pyro PT it leaves no viable dps spec for PTs since AP is a bad joke.

 

One thing that might not make the class totally useless is to add a small cd on flameburst (3-5sec) that would force them to use rapid shots more and not just spam flameburst mindlessly.

 

But usually it is the simplest thing that counters some ones abilities with melee you kite them , against Tracer spammers you LoS them and pop out to dps , snipers same thing sorcs well it´s basicly a dps race and hoping they dont get second bubble. Pyromercs pov since i don´t have an interrupt.

 

First off, I like to thank you for being reasonable in discussing your views. It's certainly less antagonistic than the OP of this thread was.

 

I play a melee DPS and a squishy healer class. Unfortunately for my melee, I'm stuck going toe to toe with a Powertech/Vanguard in melee range. I've actually been kited by an expert Powertech player who stayed out of my 8 meter range most of the time and burned me down in short order. That was expert skill on his part though, that and a generous way of dealing damage while snaring too, but I need to give credit where it's due and despite me snaring him too his damage output was way too high and I died.

 

On the Sage it's just me getting pulled in via grapple then perma snared. I spend a GCD reapplying shield to mitigate the incoming damage, can't cleanse tech as a Sage so I'm perma-snared, and while I'm doing all of I'm taking damage non-stop DoTs, spammable tech attacks, and the inevitable Thermal Detonator + Railshot. There's also the issue of my heals being interrupted while taking catastrophic damage. I can survive sometimes if someone guard me and I focus solely on healing myself.

 

 

 

That said though I don't want to see PT/VG only viable DPS being rendered useless. I don't think any reasonable people here in the community wants that either. If there's something that can be done to give other classes a window of opportunity to temporary stop the damage, and not some obscure mechanic involving dispels that only works for 2 classes then I honestly think the class would remain powerful but not eclipsing others.

 

However the "facts" that the OP made here is gross case of misinformation. The AC is nowhere near as terrible as he said it is nor at the complete mercy as he said it is. Survivability is not piss poor, it's at the very least on par with other DPS classes with a VERY generous CD that can be talented to be even more attractive. Damage is good, and RNG working in your favour is icing on the cake that leads to spectacular results.

 

The only thing factual that the OP touched on is mobility, which really does suck.

 

However the trade off is that the AC also has some of the deadliest snares topped off with grapple.

 

 

I didn't come in here asking for nerfs, but I came in here posting because the OP claimed to want to clarify facts but instead smeared a thick layer of misinformation on top of it which reeked strongly of the behaviour that Operative/Scoundrel players acted prior to the nerf.

 

---EDIT: The OP has since then been put on my ignore list. I don't have to waste my time speaking to him. He's way too obsessed with underplaying the AC's abilities. However I sure can do my best to correct the gross misinformation he's spreading.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Obie_Wan

[Theology]

First off, I like to thank you for being reasonable in discussing your views. It's certainly less antagonistic than the OP of this thread was.

 

I play a melee DPS and a squishy healer class. Unfortunately for my melee, I'm stuck going toe to toe with a Powertech/Vanguard in melee range. I've actually been kited by an expert Powertech player who stayed out of my 8 meter range most of the time and burned me down in short order. That was expert skill on his part though, that and a generous way of dealing damage while snaring too, but I need to give credit where it's due and despite me snaring him too his damage output was way too high and I died.

 

On the Sage it's just me getting pulled in via grapple then perma snared. I spend a GCD reapplying shield to mitigate the incoming damage, can't cleanse tech as a Sage so I'm perma-snared, and while I'm doing all of I'm taking damage non-stop DoTs, spammable tech attacks, and the inevitable Thermal Detonator + Railshot. There's also the issue of my heals being interrupted while taking catastrophic damage. I can survive sometimes if someone guard me and I focus solely on healing myself.

 

 

 

That said though I don't want to see PT/VG only viable DPS being rendered useless. I don't think any reasonable people here in the community wants that either. If there's something that can be done to give other classes a window of opportunity to temporary stop the damage, and not some obscure mechanic involving dispels that only works for 2 classes then I honestly think the class would remain powerful but not eclipsing others.

 

However the "facts" that the OP made here is gross case of misinformation. The AC is nowhere near as terrible as he said it is nor at the complete mercy as he said it is. Survivability is not piss poor, it's at the very least on par with other DPS classes with a VERY generous CD that can be talented to be even more attractive. Damage is good, and RNG working in your favour is icing on the cake that leads to spectacular results.

 

The only thing factual that the OP touched on is mobility, which really does suck.

 

However the trade off is that the AC also has some of the deadliest snares topped off with grapple.

 

 

I didn't come in here asking for nerfs, but I came in here posting because the OP claimed to want to clarify facts but instead smeared a thick layer of misinformation on top of it which reeked strongly of the behaviour that Operative/Scoundrel players acted prior to the nerf.

 

It's obvious that you have a hard on for me, and it's also obvious that you know very little of what you type about. I said the spec is RNG based, and thus the damage can be really bad, or really good, or in between. It's the risk of the spec. That is the ONLY thing i said.

 

Stop putting words into my mouth because you dont know how to stun and force sprint away.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Theology

[Furiousg]

^

this guy is bad

[Theology]

^

 

this guy is mad

[Thurinlore]

That's roughly ~15k damage spread over 5 GCDs with all of our temporary buffs

 

So you can kill someone in about 1 rotation?

[Furiousg]

^

 

this guy is mad

 

tryhard bro, tryhard

[sunam]

It is really simple HiB and AP doing their dmg at the same time puts the classes burst dmg in a class of its own.

 

My vanguard is full BM(mod'd) and both attacks hit on average for 4600(crit) meaning the target takes 9k or more all at once that is 50% of someone's HP bar(if they both crit) simply put yes there is an issue with this, all the other specs/classes out there are able to hit even harder then that but with only one ability and it has a cool down and/or self buff/long cast requirement in order to hit that hard.

[Rotm]

It is really simple HiB and AP doing their dmg at the same time puts the classes burst dmg in a class of its own.

 

My vanguard is full BM(mod'd) and both attacks hit on average for 4600(crit) meaning the target takes 9k or more all at once that is 50% of someone's HP bar(if they both crit) simply put yes there is an issue with this, all the other specs/classes out there are able to hit even harder then that but with only one ability and it has a cool down and/or self buff/long cast requirement in order to hit that hard.

 

An Assassin has the same burst with the same crit reliance. If they want to add the same meager set up shock/discharge requires then heat gates need to go as well.

 

Compare the damage off that frontload to what its capable of in the sub 50 WZs and its an obvious gear scaling issue that effects all tier2 dps.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Rotm

[FalmeseReb]

I murder Pyro PT's on my scoundrel healer. cleanse + dodge that removes dots is just crushing to them.

[SeloDaoC]

Atleast grapple should be locked to tank specced vanguards/powertechs

[Ewgal]

So you can kill someone in about 1 rotation?

 

 

"Can" is the important word in all of this. Pyro is RNG class in PvP, if their luck is in they have devastating burst dmg. The burst dmg, though, isn't linked to any real skill, it's just luck if they pull it off.

[Stenvass]

Atleast grapple should be locked to tank specced vanguards/powertechs

 

Grapple rarely works anyway so i doubt any dps Pyro would mind.

[SeloDaoC]

Grapple rarely works anyway so i doubt any dps Pyro would mind.

 

Thats why i get pulled into fire and acid over and over? :/

 

Or knockback and try to run away, only to be grappled back in and get fire spammed again..

Edited March 11, 2012 by SeloDaoC

[Obie_Wan]

An Assassin has the same burst with the same crit reliance. If they want to add the same meager set up shock/discharge requires then heat gates need to go as well.

 

Compare the damage off that frontload to what its capable of in the sub 50 WZs and its an obvious gear scaling issue that effects all tier2 dps.

 

Yes we've all seen Shinarika's latest PVP footages:

 

The fact that he can do similar bursts while in tank spec doesn't make things right for Powertech DPS or tank specced Assassins. People who had beta tested already knew such levels of bursts were possible due to players like Lina, but with Shinarika we've gotten a good look just how much possible it can be through gear.

 

However it's important to note that at least Infiltration spec is squishy as well, maybe it has too much burst but at least it doesn't have heavy armour. It's actually -squishy-. The Kinetic spec is actually the one that is definitely way over the top and sits in the realm above the Powertech/Vanguard DPS, and it's even more suspect because of their uninterruptable channeled heal that also does extremely painful ticks of damage too along with similar heavy armour due to their stance.

 

There's a reason why people in the community generally agree: Marauder > Tank Assassins > Powertech DPS > The rest.

 

Do you really think it's appropriate to be comparing with an Assassin? Two terribly wrong things doesn't make a right. Tank Assassins are seriously out of whack at the moment with their self heal, survivability, and insane burst damage that is beyond what other DPS classes can do and it is clearly going to become an intense issue in the weeks to come. And the same goes for Powertech/Vanguard DPS right now.

 

 

 

As for people saying that Powertech/Vanguard is all RNG based. Yeah I'll believe it's RNG based, but you guys already have a solid punch without the RNG. It's the RNG that puts you way over the top in addition to the advantages you already have and frankly the RNG is usually on your side. Being dead in the waters once in a blue moon because your talent that gives your Rocket Punch 45% chance and 30% on Flame Burst to reset your Railshot CD, that's very generous, didn't proc and you didn't completely decimate your victim like you've done the rest of the time is something that's very difficult for the rest of the community to be sympathetic towards.

 

RNG is on your AC's side. If it doesn't fail once in a blue then it's not RNG. If it's totally as unreliable as claimed there'd have been more people in an uproar about how the tree is unusable instead of people trying to keep quiet and throwing all kinds of excuses like the OP has in this thread to justify being able to decimate a player in short order. This behaviour is entirely reminiscent of the Operative/Scoundrel crowd pre-nerf.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Obie_Wan

[exphryl]

. If it's totally as unreliable as claimed there'd have been more people in an uproar about how the tree is unusable instead of people trying to keep quiet and throwing all kinds of excuses like the OP has in this thread to justify being able to decimate a player in short order. This behaviour is entirely reminiscent of the Operative/Scoundrel crowd pre-nerf.

 

You seem to forget,Full DPS wise, PTs/VGs have no other build to fall back on as AP/Tactics is terribly designed. (I think every class has that one tree people are silly to spec 31 points in to) So an "RNG" Spec is all we can do. Otherwise spec Shield/Hybrid.

 

If it wasn't terrible I'd go AP in a heartbeat myeslf

Edited March 11, 2012 by exphryl

[Obie_Wan]

You seem to forget,Full DPS wise, PTs/VGs have no other build to fall back on as AP/Tactics is terribly designed. (I think every class has that one tree people are silly to spec 31 points in to) So an "RNG" Spec is all we can do. Otherwise spec Shield/Hybrid.

 

If it wasn't terrible I'd go AP in a heartbeat myeslf

 

Yeah, I can sympathize with that. I've got two full level geared up classes that has issues that you've mentioned in regards to DPS trees. It boggles my mind why the developers won't take another good look at these wonky talent trees and polish it up.

 

That said though, my main point is that the spec is at least working well. It's not perfect, or everyone's all-time favourite, but my god it works -well-. To the OP who claims to be "clearing up facts" by painting RNG as some sort of Achilles Heel to the spec, as if it is a regular occurrence that holds performance back to reasonable levels is blatant misinformation and lies through and through.

 

And good lord, that... tank Assassin spec in DPS gear. Sweet mercy what has BioWare done?

[exphryl]

And good lord, that... tank Assassin spec in DPS gear. Sweet mercy what has BioWare done?

 

I think when people post various burst videos with specs and gear set up, while you'll hear from people "BW doesn't nerf based on videos!". Lets face it, there are so many countless combinations (kind of) a player can make and with internal data aside, it still will require the people of BW to think of what the spec is capable and because of that things get missed or "lost in translation".

 

Sometimes us players are better at finding these broken gear setups/talents than them, and they adjust accordingly.

[Chaosmagistrate]

Lot of inflating and deflating of numbers to make the Pyros look weak. OP highest crit 3.8k...lulz, nice deflation. I've been crit for 4.4k back to back within 3 globals. Now that probably only happens a few times per match, but don't ******** out your teeth please.

 

And some retard spouting off 7.5k smashes...Way to get armor debuff + stun debuff + inpsiratoin, plus adrenal plus relic...That happens less than back2back rails and requires three people to sync.

 

As for nerfing them or buffing them, I don't care. They're in a pretty good spot being a melee-ish damage with higher burst potential than an Anni Mara, but lower mobility, and weaker defensive cooldowns, but higher sustained mitigation.

 

I just wish people would stop spouting bs to protect their classes.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Chaosmagistrate

[MPagano]

This is more reason for some form of a combat log that allows a player to look at the numbers. Without raw data, there is no basis for a formal debate of this kind.

[Krytycal]

I have a fully geared pyro, 4.5k-5k hits are rare. The average rail shot crit is ~4k with adrenals/relics, lower without.

 

Pryos have nice burst when RNG is on your side, no doubt, but I'd still place them behind behind marauders and darkness sins in the PvP food chain simply because they are extremely vulnerable to focus fire.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Krytycal

[JakeDawg]

I can't believe I'm letting myself get baited into this because I usually don't even come onto TorChan very often. However:

 

I have a War Hero full-BM geared Pyro. We have no mobility and are incredibly squishy. The heavy armor looks nice but most attacks completely bypass it.

 

The burst is great WHEN IT HAPPENS. The entire spec is a slot machine, and we have no control over any engagement. First we have to get lucky PPA procs to reset RS, then we have to get lucky crits. If all the stars line up, yes we can do nice burst (although the claims on here have been outrageously exagerated).

 

If we don't get lucky, we end up in high heat and cut down.

 

Personally, I hate the spec because I'd rather have some options to have control over the engagement and utilize more reactive and proactive thinking. However, I'm forced into it because Advanced Prototype is completely worthless...

 

I'd be fine with them trimming the top end, and increasing PPA procs, while giving us some tricks to use. The DPS versions of this entire AC are awful and I don't want to be a tank.

[LittleFuzzy]

And yet, a watchman sentinel will still win against a Pyro.

 

Or are we talking group play? Where guarding/taunting comes into play. Or multiple healers, one healing, one cleansing.

 

When ignored, Pyro destroys. When targeted, we spend the whole time dead.

 

It's Anstar, Rolf, I never do anything but group play. Not infrequently with you. If I'm with a tank guarding me AND taunting, or if I'm healing AND another healer is helping me, I can survive long enough for a dps to kill the pyro. Sometimes. Often enough I'll still go down and sure the pyro will go down as well but it still means a fairly solid shot at killing an actively defended player. The only way to stop those kills is to focus the pyro down before he can get close to the target. And that's too much offense for Assault and Pyro.

[babiegirlla]

I don`t see how that`s really fair to say "this class is okay, because it`s only SOMETIMES they can destroy you to almost dead in under 5 seconds", that`s like operatives, just TERRIBLE, terrible design to build a class around opening up with a stun and destroying someone, and then being totally useless.

 

terrible terrible design I can`t believe it. And there`s no uniqueness or anything to knockbacks or stuns in this game, almost every class has a stun or a knockback, and it`s just mindblowing how they designed things.

[shyturtle]

i saw you put a 4/6/31 as your pyrotech build after many days of pvping i myself dont find this to be the best viable pt spec running a 2/6/33 can definitely help with heat control as well as survivability and possible escapes if need be regardless of set bonuses

[Ryotknife]

I don`t see how that`s really fair to say "this class is okay, because it`s only SOMETIMES they can destroy you to almost dead in under 5 seconds", that`s like operatives, just TERRIBLE, terrible design to build a class around opening up with a stun and destroying someone, and then being totally useless.

 

terrible terrible design I can`t believe it. And there`s no uniqueness or anything to knockbacks or stuns in this game, almost every class has a stun or a knockback, and it`s just mindblowing how they designed things.

 

Im a full champ pt, and ive yet to kill someone under 10 seconds. 5 seconds is literally impossible unless the person is NAKED. 15 seconds to kill someone CAN happen against a poorly geared player and i pop offensive CDs, relics, adrenal, and pvp exp buff.

 

pts, sorcs, mercs (interupt tracer missile and watch them squirm), and snipers (the only class significantly affected by armor) generally take the longest to kill me.

 

and before someone makes fun of the fact that ive yet to experience killing someone in under 10 seconds, skill does not determine how hard an ability hits. skill only determines how much dps you can do, but pyro pt dps generally revolves around 4-5 abilities (easy mode compared to affliction warlock w/ soulfire rotation in cata wow). Hell the first time i got the 2.5k medal in pvp was when i was 75% cent 25% champ. my assassin gets 3.4k crits in the 10-49 bracket right out of the gate using only the pvp exp buff and no relics or adrenals.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Ryotknife