Valor 65 Sniper Explaining [In Detail] State of Snipers in PvP atm -->

[Dharkeon]

Valor 61 (weakling with barely any BM gear; unlucky so far) Sniper. Pure MM Specced (not quite as PvP optimal).

 

I'm "struggling" against every of the more resilient targets, which sadly.. are pretty much everything but Sorcerers\Sages; Yes, I can count with my fingers the amount of Imperial Agents\Smugglers that I encounter during Warzones, so leaving those out of the equation.

 

Sadly those Sorcerers\Sages are getting scarce in my server. Now it's mostly consisted of Assassins\Shadow tanks, Marauders\Sentinels and Mercenaries\Commandos with the occasional Powertech\Vanguard.

 

Which is a shame.. I used to battle quite hard against Sorcerers\Sages back a while when I was less geared.. now that I tear them to pieces; they are nearly gone.

 

PS: No. Not whining. I still end up in top5 and I have to laugh about it since most up there are AoE heroes; I'm mostly Single Target damage.

- still... it does get frustrating to see all that damage so badly mitigated.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Dharkeon

[nikthebeast]

Unless you are one of these: inquisitor, trooper, bounty hunter, consular...then you should not be PVPing really.

 

Nonesense. I am doing very well with my sniper and I'm having a good time doing so. Not going to play the trite and stupid L2P argument but if sniper doesn't work for you, other classes might. Lethality sniper just happend to fit my playing style nicely. Not going to assume some arbitrary position of superiority because it is working for me.

 

Granted, there are some things that can be improved upon, and in 1.2 they might be. Every single class is getting a rebalance. Acting all "doom and gloom" before we even know the details is pointless. Unless you know something we don't, and if you do, do tell.

 

Much of the issue, I think, is that people stare themselves blind on the end-result chart and think lots of damage equals a good player. Especially when you look at DPS classes. It is so easy to "look good" when you throw in a bit of AE...

[Radared]

I think one of the the reasons why some Snipers are successful as Marks is because of how many Sorcs/Sages play the game. I believe that is a huge reason why I am successful because you see really high crits. Crits that you simply do not see against the beefier targets (which is fine).

 

Lethality damage is just very even. I mean, its bursty, but not Marks bursty against the clothy targets. The trade off is you do good damage against higher armor targets and don't need to sit in cover.

 

I just wish they had some dual specs already in this game already so A) I can experiment some more and B) so I can just change up the playstyle every now and again. Marks is sweet in a group, whereas I prefer Lethality solo.

[Afterday]

well honestly....

someone wrote-nobody stand against my sniper 1 vs 1 and 2vs 1 even and on assasin he never killed 2 ppl alone lol or maybe big LOL

Asa is op like hell,sniper or any range is 5 seconds job its mele so yes you need better skill than range class but still is more easy kill 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 1 than sniper

Sniper-worst class 1 vs big problem vs healers, big problem vs force users

Sniper need bigger range its funny when you got same range like trooper almost same dmg(he got better armor +heal so its totaly like fighting some epic boss alone)

Sniper need some revamp

Trooper also-blind can play it now

[imjudas]

I think Bioware is doing a pretty good job with the game but snipers are for sure one of their huge problems. My sniper feels very half baked. It feels like they put so much time into the cover system that they forgot to balance the class. I understand that the whole cover system was something new that they wanted to try but IMO it flopped and the need to accept that and MAKE IT A BONUS UTILITY NOT A REQUIRED UTILITY. I think this would solve a lot of problems with the sniper.

 

That's just my opinion.

 

Also a ranged, Roll to, deployable cover would be so sweet.

[Technohic]

I rolled a smuggler yesterday and noticed while they can't seem to hit with their version of explosive probe; they stay behind cover during their cast which makes natural cover a bit more useful. I don't think it would fix either mirrors issues, but I was thinking we both should be able to do so (and think thy should be able to explosive probe like we do as well, but I bet it would be changed to where ours works more like theirs. )

 

Then I think like the previous poster said; abilities should be able to fire outside of cover, but cover should make some improvements like accuracy increases and at higher levels, the portable cover should be as good as natural cover; or some sort of deployable natural cover would be nice so it is always available rather than map dependent.

 

Just a start maybe. I don't want to blow the cover system out because that is why I love the class. I just think it should be a benefit and encouraged without required.

[achtungbabies]

I've been specced MM since launch, valour 56 at the moment. I tried a bit of engineering and lethality in beta but I prefer the burst and big crits of MM. The big damage mitigation against geared heavy armour players (especially those who can heal themselves) is frustrating but I do good damage against anyone in light or medium armour.

 

I read a lot of posts on here saying they never see other snipers on their server but that certainly isn't the case for me on Hex Droid EU. It isn't unusual for me to be teamed with another sniper in a WZ - last night there were 4 of us on one team! However I can count the number of gunslingers I've come up against on one hand.

 

Generally I enjoy playing my sniper but there isn't anything particularly sniper-esque about the class. We aren't covert or sneaky in any way. Our shield flashes red and advertises our position. Our 'ambush' attack paints a red reticule on the target while it charges giving clever players time to pop a shield or other defensive cooldown. We've got sniper sounding abilities but the class plays more like a rifleman with a portable shield.

 

I've seen the roll to portable cover suggested a few times, I think it’s a great idea. We could use it as a offensive ability to get us in to range quicker and an escape ability to create some range between us and our target when we get caught in melee.

 

Shield probe could do with a buff, it doesn't seem to absorb much damage at all in its current state.

 

I can't take cover while rooted - SO ANNOYING. Surely this has to be a bug? Switched on players know they can root a MM sniper and it's basically as effective as a stun.

 

With ranked PvP on the horizon my concern is that we won't have a place in the 'optimum' team setup. It seems everything we bring to the table other classes can as well... admittedly with less burst but without the lack of mobility and squishiness, and for someone like me who bought this game for PvP it is a bit worrying.

[Crankyhobo]

I like all this sensible discussion, however with the patch looming and knowing how development works its too late for 1.2. We needed you in here a month or two ago. Edited March 13, 2012 by Crankyhobo

[Relith]

to OP. Pretty informative post, well written. IMO, a bit of a whine perhaps, but most of these types of posts are. Still a lot people can take away from it however.

 

I also find it hilarious how just about every single class whine posts mention marauders. I'm familiar with the paper/rocks/scissors concept, but this reminds me of my childhood when someone would instead point out their middle finger and say "dynamite!" which beats everything. So I really wouldn't worry about the marauders, which should probably be balanced over time. The other classes mentioned are acceptable as they are definitely more setup to be a counter to the sniper class as a whole.

[TehChozenOne]

I like all this sensible discussion, however with the patch looming and knowing how development works its too late for 1.2. We needed you in here a month or two ago.

 

Sorry

 

Updated 1st Page

Edited March 14, 2012 by TehChozenOne

[Poe_]

I like all this sensible discussion, however with the patch looming and knowing how development works its too late for 1.2. We needed you in here a month or two ago.

We were here weeks ago. This is the same back and forth about utility and uselessness, needs and gaps, etc., that we've been having with one another. I am exhausted from the last tete-a-tete on this forum (lol) so I stayed out of this one (but Ragingpwner represented! nj )

 

Fact is, despite many great ideas (mobile cover, leap back, and more) throughout the pages of this thread, I haven't seen any dev input. Nor have I seen dev input in prior threads or really at any time.

 

Has anyone else?

 

It's feeling alot like the RIFT Sin community thread, to be honest ... with a ton of discourse, 50% blowhards with no data suggesting they have all the answers, and 50% honest debate with ideas on adjusting the gaps in the Sniper class. But no dev input or response. It's getting frustrating.

 

I know it's 'too late' for 1.2, but I a surprised we haven't seen anything on how much, or how little, might be addressed in that patch and future iterations. Devs, why so shy?

Edited March 14, 2012 by Poe_

[Perfectcircle]

This post has the worst formatting of any post I may have ever seen in my life.

 

I would remove the return key from my keyboard if I were you.

[Poe_]

This post has the worst formatting of any post I may have ever seen in my life.

 

I would remove the return key from my keyboard if I were you.

You're.

 

Kidding.

 

 

 

Right?

 

Trollololol?

[Clonazepam]

I am Valor 65 sniper and by no means i find our class broken. you just need to learn what your class is designed for, we are designed to dps and we are great on that, 95% of the time i am top dmg and when i am not top i am within 15k of the top player. On the other hand if you think you can run the ball in hutball then you are totally wrong.

 

Now people will say Sorcs/Marauders can do pretty much the same dmg and they can run the ball, correct but in exchange they cant kill a decent healer alone while snipers can, we are dpsers and dpsers only and for that we have the best burst dmg in game, if you dont think having that in a rated warzone is valuable then we just have a very different approach to the game.

 

Who said we cant peel dmg? You have an AOE knockback, blind grenade and melee stun. I am marksman not like the original poster eng/leth, but i find my sourvability totally on par with other classes (of course excluding tank and heal specs).

 

If melees are on you you can:

 

Pop the ability that makes you inmune to CC for 20 secs (forgot name)

Cast orbital strike on you (2 secs cast as marksman)

Use shield probe, evasion or medpack (in case meeles are dumb enough to stay at melee range), if they leave there is yoiur peel

If they didnt then you can aoe knock back them, when they get free you blind them

 

If in all that time you didnt get heals, ran away, or kill your target then the problem is the players not the class.

 

If range attacks you:

You have a passive evasion buff by being behind your shiled

Pop CC inmunity

Toss the grenade that reduces their accuracy by 10% (dont recall name or exact %, im at work )

You have 35 yds interrupt

When they are casting their big hit skills if your interrupt is down you can blind them , cast orbital striek on them while blinded, damaging them and forcing them to move after the blind giving you even more time

If they try to run you have a 5 secs root that do not counts toward resolve

 

You have a great deal of tools to be on par with anyone else, I have to admit the base of everything is the CC inmunity (which as far as i know nobody else has), so you are trading having to kneel to be able to knockback for that (you cant have it all). If i am running and someone good faces me in a 1 v 1 and my CC inmmunity is on cooldown chances are i will loose, on the other hand if it is up i win almost granted, that thing lasts 20 secs and its on a 45 secs cooldown (if specced properly) that is one of the best abilities.

 

Perhaps the life of a eng/lethality build is totally different but as a marksman i find pvp totally balanced and enjoyable. In my view lethality is for pve, we dont have parsers yet but in KP and EV my impression is my dmg is noticeable greater in lethality than in marksman, Most games in most classes have pve and pvp specs, perhaps the spec you are using is just not the best suited for pvp.

 

My 2 cents.

[hadoken]

Now people will say Sorcs/Marauders can do pretty much the same dmg and they can run the ball, correct but in exchange they cant kill a decent healer alone while snipers can, we are dpsers and dpsers only and for that we have the best burst dmg in game, if you dont think having that in a rated warzone is valuable then we just have a very different approach to the game.

 

You actually believe snipers are better at killing healers than marauders?

[Technohic]

You actually believe snipers are better at killing healers than marauders?

 

Well; not sure I agree 100% with him, but a Marauder will be in the healers face. As a sniper, you can save your burst, stuns and interrupts for right when they are about to start healing themselves. A lot of healers I see will let their health drop to below half before they pay attention to themselves.

 

In all, I would say full health, not really and I also wonder once merc healing gets a boost if it will even be possible given their heavy armor along with the healing.

[hadoken]

Well; not sure I agree 100% with him, but a Marauder will be in the healers face. As a sniper, you can save your burst, stuns and interrupts for right when they are about to start healing themselves. A lot of healers I see will let their health drop to below half before they pay attention to themselves.

 

In all, I would say full health, not really and I also wonder once merc healing gets a boost if it will even be possible given their heavy armor along with the healing.

 

You mean your one ranged interrupt?

 

Sniper burst is great, and they can kill healers sure. But compared to a class with a 4s interrupt on a 6s cooldown and 20% healing debuff....

[Technohic]

You mean your one ranged interrupt?

 

Sniper burst is great, and they can kill healers sure. But compared to a class with a 4s interrupt on a 6s cooldown and 20% healing debuff....

 

Well; more or less. I have had to charge out of cover to debilitate and pulse also to keep them from getting that heal off; whatever it takes, but I do agree that the 4s on 6 s cool down would be much easier, seeing as any good healer I have seen will get to LOS me but you can catch them off guard. (And a lot want to also be DPS while healing so stay there thinking they will heal and then waste me.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Technohic

[TehChozenOne]

I am Valor 65 sniper and by no means i find our class broken.

 

I can tell based on your post that you probably have not been 65 for a very long time, or you have a lack of BattleMasters in FULL BM gear on your server. I hit lv50 before 2012 hit, and have been Valor 60 about a week into January. Which means I've been a Battlemaster since PRE 1.1

 

If you honestly feel that our class is not broken.. then you have no concept of what other fully geared toons are capable of.

you just need to learn what your class is designed for, we are designed to dps and we are great on that, 95% of the time i am top dmg and when i am not top i am within 15k of the top player. On the other hand if you think you can run the ball in hutball then you are totally wrong.

 

That being said, the difference between our class and other classes is MASSIVE. Our skill cap is higher, but our overall damage is lower. It is EASY to top damage as a Sniper. Spam AoE skills, and DoT everyone you see.. however WarZones are not about Kills or Damage. They are about winning. Also.. EVERY other class in the game can run the ball [minis Operatives] but even they are stronger ball carriers than Snipers [self heals, ect].

Now people will say Sorcs/Marauders can do pretty much the same dmg and they can run the ball, correct but in exchange they cant kill a decent healer alone while snipers can, we are dpsers and dpsers only and for that we have the best burst dmg in game, if you dont think having that in a rated warzone is valuable then we just have a very different approach to the game.

 

Wrong again. Sorcs, and Maras kill healers [and Tanks] fasters and more efficently. Between their cc, and raw damage, Snipers fall severely behind in that Argument. You honestly just picked to 2 BEST classes for MURDERING healers/tanks. Bleeds go through Armor. So do DoTs. Sorcs are the BEST kiters in the game, and Maras hit like a truck. I mentioned in my OP that we had the best Burst in the game. This is true, however we can ONLY do that once everyone 6-18 seconds. Sorcs and Maras can do that CONSISTANTLY during the course of the game. They can also switch to new targets faster as well.

Who said we cant peel dmg? You have an AOE knockback, blind grenade and melee stun. I am marksman not like the original poster eng/leth, but i find my sourvability totally on par with other classes (of course excluding tank and heal specs).

 

Wrong again. Resolve is an extremely important factor in the game, and even though we have an incredible amount of cc, due to our lack of damage mitagation our peels are irrelevant because after your cc wears off [which it will] the target you just took out of the fight, can [AND WILL] tear you to pieces. In comparison to the other classes we lack defensive CDs to make anything we do look worth while.

 

If melees are on you you can:

 

Pop the ability that makes you inmune to CC for 20 secs (forgot name)

Cast orbital strike on you (2 secs cast as marksman)

Use shield probe, evasion or medpack (in case meeles are dumb enough to stay at melee range), if they leave there is yoiur peel

If they didnt then you can aoe knock back them, when they get free you blind them

 

If in all that time you didnt get heals, ran away, or kill your target then the problem is the players not the class.

 

Wrong again. Duel a Marauder in FULL BATTLEMASTER with Rakata Offset pieces.. or a Competent Assassin/Operative. If you didn't feel the massive shortcomings of your class at that point you either are

 

1- Using Cybertech Nades

2- Hit ALOT of crits and are MM

3- The other player afk'd out or tremendously f***ed up.

 

If range attacks you:

You have a passive evasion buff by being behind your shiled

Pop CC inmunity

Toss the grenade that reduces their accuracy by 10% (dont recall name or exact %, im at work )

You have 35 yds interrupt

When they are casting their big hit skills if your interrupt is down you can blind them , cast orbital striek on them while blinded, damaging them and forcing them to move after the blind giving you even more time

If they try to run you have a 5 secs root that do not counts toward resolve

 

You do realize that all of this orbital strike talk is very absurd. It has a 3sec cast time, and 5 sec activation time. any player that this not slapping his d*ck on his keyboard to play this game knows they can back up 5m, or walk forward 5k and not get hit. Flashbang/Legshot ONLY keep them cc'd for 5-8secs IF they're NOT taking damage. Clearly you just admitted that as MM you don't use Dart or Probe to DPS. That speaks volumes about your spec, and "play style". Let me know how RapidFire is working out for you sir "pro status".

 

You have a great deal of tools to be on par with anyone else, I have to admit the base of everything is the CC inmunity (which as far as i know nobody else has), so you are trading having to kneel to be able to knockback for that (you cant have it all). If i am running and someone good faces me in a 1 v 1 and my CC inmmunity is on cooldown chances are i will loose, on the other hand if it is up i win almost granted, that thing lasts 20 secs and its on a 45 secs cooldown (if specced properly) that is one of the best abilities.

 

So you are telling me that unless you are using ENTRENCH you can't win? So really unless you have ALL of your CDs you can't beat the other classes 1v1. Did i mention that the other classes can LoS you while you're entrenched, making it a useless CD 1/2 the time. GOOD players KNOW how to "deal" with Snipers.

Perhaps the life of a eng/lethality build is totally different but as a marksman i find pvp totally balanced and enjoyable. In my view lethality is for pve, we dont have parsers yet but in KP and EV my impression is my dmg is noticeable greater in lethality than in marksman, Most games in most classes have pve and pvp specs, perhaps the spec you are using is just not the best suited for pvp.

 

Marks does better verses Melee. Leth/Engin does MUCH better verses casters.. and tanks. I also spec into "CounterMeasures" which lets me use my aggro drop to remove movement impairing effects. Seems good if i need to drop into cover when i'm rooted. It has also been tested.. Leth/Engin does SIGNIFICANTLY more burst than MM [if your target is fully DoT'd]. It is also alot more mobile as well. Then again.. its all personal preference. I won't outright say MM is better or worse for PvP. Both specs server their purpose.. but i will comment on your spec if you're 31 points into it.

My 2 cents.

Honeybadger Crits you for my two cents.

 

 

ps- our interrupt has 30m of range unless you have your 4set fieldtech pvp bonus [NOT 35m like you stated earlier]

[Crankyhobo]

I am Valor 65 sniper and by no means i find our class broken.

 

entrench is a requirement to have a chance 1v1 since almost everything except pure interrupts interrupts us while we're in uninterruptable cover, breaks us out of cover / prevents us from going into cover, so we cant use abilities.

 

With one cc break which is almost not worth using unless you can LOS or mez within a second, you're going to get slowed again and then you're going to die. Or you could turn and fight, pop all your defensive cool-downs and you might have a chance in a 1v1 but its almost never 1v1.

 

One class strength, which i cannot overstate, is a free teleport to the defensive line in huttball.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Crankyhobo

[Technohic]

One class strength, which i cannot overstate, is a free teleport to the defensive line in huttball.

 

lol I know that one, but it has worked for me. I have put the finishing blow on a few ball carriers from the safety of the ledge.

[Poe_]

...

 

This thread has been up for exactly one week, and look at the uprising it has already caused.

 

On that note.. I am seriously tempted to change to title to petition Bioware to respond to this thread if it gets 2000 replies 10,000 Views.

 

They can't ignore us forever *shakesfist*

Then do it man, please! There was another, similar thread just like this ... no dev input. Anything we can do to get some insight from where their heads are would be great. And, it would probably get the Community thinking more about potential tweaks and fixes rather than wailing about class comparison and personal experience.

[Ayestes]

Petitions usually have negative connotations. The best way to get Developers to listen to you is to be constructive and explain things thoroughly. Actual discussions are great. Exaggerations and selective analysis is bad. Even then, forum discussions should only be a small fraction of what a Developer looks at in terms of balancing the game. No matter how right we actually are or how right we think we are.

 

Personally I agree with a lot of what you've said. However when you start saying that last point in 31 points of Madness does tons of damage... it makes me believe you are a little too emotional when you wrote this post. Frankly as a Sorc it's traditionally not taken because it doesn't do enough damage. This discredits a lot of what you've said right there, and it's just a single line. It shouldn't have that effect, but it does. Also it really seems like you have a sense of self-entitlement throughout the post as well. As if a certain class deserves these things in every single MMO because that is what is supposed to happen. Who decides what is supposed to happen in terms of game design? Certainly not you alone. Personally I don't feel we need a slow, at all. Should the root be better? Perhaps, but we certainly don't need a a new untalented slow.

 

Now, I originally read your post and wrote you off as a rager. However since the topic has garnered plenty of attention it seems, I actually gave it a second chance. There is some great stuff in here, and I want to discuss some of the changes you suggested.

 

• Give us a Vanish.
  

This would be awesome. I do not believe it fits the class though. Sure we are named a Sniper, but that doesn't necessitate we sit back and shoot a single shot to kill things from the brush while hidden. I do not believe we should be looking to improve our active defense mitigation in this fashion. If we need to improve that, we should be looking at Shield Probe, Evasion, Ballistic Shield, and Entrench.

 

• Give us a portable piece of cover we can throw out [at a 20m range] and roll to it.
  

So this ability is just too awesome for me to come up with a real counter argument. I actually do believe Snipers need this in terms of mobility as well, although I'm unsure if I can justify adding extra defensive abilities. This would be all the utility we need in Huttball... we wouldn't need a Healing Debuff as I previously stated.

 

• allow Leth to make their DoTs undispellable. If you have an ability [CULL] that is your MAIN SOURCE OF DAMAGE and it doesn't less damage than your other channeled ability w/out DoTS [soS] then theres an issue here.. or give our DoTs a shorter CD...
  

Don't take away the choice of dispelling them. If they are dispelled, they should pop for a small amount of damage and refund some energy. I agree with reducing the Corrosive Grenade cooldown as well. Dispels should still be the smart choice against us, but it shouldn't be as punishing as it is currently.

 

• Change "Target Aquired" to make the next offensive ability unavoidable [resist/dodge/ect] instead of the 100% crit to Snipe.
  

I think you mean Laze Target. I like the change, I just think it needs something to make it always seem useful in addition to being undefendable. My original suggestion was to change it back to how it was in one of the previous betas, where it is just a debuff you place on the target that makes them take more damage. Essentially giving us a form of utility that is useful for the group.

 

• Make Dehibiliate Ranged [or atleast change the NINETY RESOLVE to be on par with other stuns and make it 40]
  

Debilitate is short ranged because it has a lower cooldown. We should not have better CC options then a Sorcerer, since a Sorcerer relies on offensive CC for a lot of their defense. Snipers actually have defensive cooldowns to utilize in addition to Cover. I disagree with this change and believe it would be harmful to the game.

 

• Give Snipers a Talented ability [remove the 4% Alacrity/or CoverScreen] that makes it whenever you leave cover, you gain 15/30% Movement speed increase [cannot be activated more than once every 4sec].
  

This is pretty cool. I'm not sure we need it though. That'd be for the developers to decide. Passive cover cooldowns also tend to be 6s, not 4s.

 

Honestly, the biggest issue I have with Sniper's is their problems in sustained PvP combat up against a Premade. A Sniper's sustained damage drops a lot in these cases, since you shouldn't drop low on energy without Adrenaline Probe or the chance to Recuperate. As Marksman people knew to use their Defense Chance cooldowns and as Lethality people knew how to use their dispel button. Both of those things frustrated me into re-rolling a new class in combination with the Energy Mechanic as a whole. I love the idea of the Energy Mechanic, but in terms of balance I don't understand how you balance the game around it. When I think I can get a kill and suddenly they are popped to full health out of no where, it's not fun to spam Rifle Shots for 10+ seconds just to recover from the mistake.

 

The only problem is, the Sniper has a lot of things you can fix. The trouble is every time you fix something you are buffing it slightly, and I honestly believe we don't need that much in the way of buffs. We just need our weaknesses to be less punishing to us - which is a small buff I I will admit. If they made these changes, I'd probably come right back:

 

• Takedown, Ambush, and Weakening Blast are now no longer able to be dodged or deflected, but can still be shielded against as normal.
  
• Weakening Blast grants an additional Tech debuff. If a target with this debuff is dispelled it causes the target to take a large burst of internal damage and refund 10 energy to the Sniper.
  
• Corrosive Grenade has had it's cooldown reduced to 9 seconds.
  
• Energy system has been revamped for Imperial Agents. 100% to 30% now grants you the fastest energy regen (5.0/sec). 0-30% is now at the slowest energy regen (2.0/sec). (I know the UI breaks things up by 20%, but I think 20% is too low and 40% too high.)
  

Edited March 14, 2012 by Ayestes

[silvershadez]

I've heard they do massive changes to almost any class in 1.2. Would wait for that now.

[Ayestes]

Yes I've heard they are working on significant changes on 1.2 as well. Also, feedback from transferring your character to the PTS about balance will be highly valued. Definitely the best way to get your own opinions across.