PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[obi-joachim]

I agree with dps meeters for show off, but treath meeter? Hell no, do you want bioware to hold your hand or wha?

[mangarrage]

It is pretty much decided but the mere addition of personal logs ruins the game anyway. As per usual you will have about a dozen people who will post their numbers, stats, and rotation so the wow flunkies can play better, so yea

 

The fact is that all of the information is in the game dmg cooldowns etc and people do not want to learn their character or their abilities or what anything does they will just copy what some others (who actually learn to play) are doing

 

Makes no difference if they are group or personal the damage is going to be done either way

 

Can wait for the posts I did X dps on X target, followed by 200 posts about what is your rotation what is you crit rating what weapon are you using etc

 

So many wow baddies are just salivating for 1.2

[Felioats]

I think their current plans are perfect. A log you and only you can save to disk and see. I'm sure someone will write a program to parse a whole guild full of logs together if you so desire.

 

People managed guilds before there were combat meters. If you can't handle it, I suggest you step aside and make room for someone who can.

[Stupiddrummer]

It is pretty much decided but the mere addition of personal logs ruins the game anyway. As per usual you will have about a dozen people who will post their numbers, stats, and rotation so the wow flunkies can play better, so yea

 

The fact is that all of the information is in the game dmg cooldowns etc and people do not want to learn their character or their abilities or what anything does they will just copy what some others (who actually learn to play) are doing

 

Makes no difference if they are group or personal the damage is going to be done either way

 

Can wait for the posts I did X dps on X target, followed by 200 posts about what is your rotation what is you crit rating what weapon are you using etc

 

So many wow baddies are just salivating for 1.2

 

They should just remove all the numbers in the game. Who needs objective indicators of progress? Who likes factual feedback anyway? Who cares about damage if i have a lightsaber? amirite?

[Stupiddrummer]

I think their current plans are perfect. A log you and only you can save to disk and see. I'm sure someone will write a program to parse a whole guild full of logs together if you so desire.

 

People managed guilds before there were combat meters. If you can't handle it, I suggest you step aside and make room for someone who can.

 

but why not just give us the same combat logs/dps meters that are already in other MMOs?

 

the way theyre planning on implementing it is exactly how i want to play star wars...alt-tabed, searching through speadsheets to see who just saved my life with that last second heal in the wz.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Taroen]

i played WoW for 5 years. I ran with a good guild (and for only like, 2 of those years). I played my role and was respectful. I avoided bad players. Never encountered any of these "alienated by numbers" situations.

 

its all about the person. You're going to run into jerks in games. There were more jerks in WoW because WoW just had an ungodly amount of players. Its simple statistics.

 

It's up to you to choose to play with mean or nice people. I don't see what dps meters have anything to do with this.

 

^^^ THIS!!!

 

1000 times THIS!!!

[Seregul]

They should just remove all the numbers in the game. Who needs objective indicators of progress? Who likes factual feedback anyway? Who cares about damage if i have a lightsaber? amirite?

 

Careful, they might realize what tooltips are and start screaming that they be removed.

[Elysith]

I can't vote on the poll, it says I've already voted (and hitting the back button does not help).

 

My answer to the poll would be no.

 

For me detailed combat logs end up turning the game into a pack of emotionless statistics. I prefer to just play the game and experiment with what happens in the game world directly.

I don't need numbers to know If I have enjoyed a good moment with other players in the party.

 

Now I understand that some players wanna have a professional sport kind of approach to the game content. And as in with professional sports, they want to use various tool to monitor the performance of each players.

Which is perfectly fine by me as long as it's not forced upon everyone.

 

In sport each professional agrees to wear body monitoring devices, to be tracked and to share his data with others.

 

And such should be in the game, because not each person wanna play pro-competitively.

 

A player combat log should only be available to others, if such player agrees to share it with others. That's why I'm for personal combat log option.

Then at least each player can decide if he wants to take part into a pro-competitive event, or simply if he likes or not the raw concept of game logs.

And if it bothers one, a pro-competitive player can choose to not party with people who does not want to share their data.

 

As for the implementation , ideally it would have to be easily accessible and optionally shareable with others directly in-game.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Elysith

[Loendar]

That's not actually known to be true... right now, we have no idea whether the log is going to be in real time; the fact that they kept referring to it as "downloadable" kind of implies that it may not be.

 

If it's not a real time log, then act doesn't actually allow him to do any part of what he wants.

 

That's not accurate. Even with ACT, he's getting part of what he wants: part of the data that is related to his performance. He's certainly not getting all of what he wants.

 

Okay - so you think that what they are offering when they say that they are sending the logs to your hard drive is ... what exactly? That they will be storing up everything you are doing during your session on their server somewhere and then will dump it to you upon request?

 

I suppose *anything* is possible but I think you are stretching reality a bit to try and make a point.

 

 

As for getting what he wants - he has stated more than a few times that he really wants to see what he is doing and use it to improve himself (sometimes he flip-flops into wanting everything from everyone as well). So, at a minimum, he will be getting what he says he wants in percentage of his posts on the subject.

[Taroen]

Okay - so you think that what they are offering when they say that they are sending the logs to your hard drive is ... what exactly? That they will be storing up everything you are doing during your session on their server somewhere and then will dump it to you upon request?

 

I suppose *anything* is possible but I think you are stretching reality a bit to try and make a point.

 

 

As for getting what he wants - he has stated more than a few times that he really wants to see what he is doing and use it to improve himself (sometimes he flip-flops into wanting everything from everyone as well). So, at a minimum, he will be getting what he says he wants in percentage of his posts on the subject.

 

Either way, all you have to do to get what YOU want is simply not use logs and meters. If the people who hate metrics truly are the majority, like you guys say, then you should have no trouble at all finding like minded people to play with.

 

Meanwhile, he can play the game the way he wants, and so can you.

 

But you'd rather try to force him to play it your way.

[Matte_Black]

They should just remove all the numbers in the game. Who needs objective indicators of progress? Who likes factual feedback anyway? Who cares about damage if i have a lightsaber? amirite?

 

If you listen to the devs, you sort of are right. Yes, the game functions on values but, it is supposed to represent a world lacking such exactly measured values. You aren't intended to play with your nose buried in scrolling numbers ignoring everything but, the combat log and abilities tray. They want you more viscerally connected to the story and spectacle you are interacting with. Competively rushing through content with combat log-developed macro-driven combat routines may be what some want and are accustomed to but, BioWare isn't big on offering the tools to encourage that type of play.

[Drewser]

That will never work. It will be turn the information on or leave our group.

 

Personal combat logs are fine.

 

As I stated, it is already going to be "upload a log here: http://www.logparser.com /email me one or leave the group.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Drewser

[Galbatorrix]

^^^ THIS!!!

 

1000 times THIS!!!

 

 

 

Not all of us have time to even play with a guild. Heck, it's why dungeon finder tools are so popular. It allows people to play group content without any ties to the other players. That way, they can play the way they want to for those few hours without having other people trying to pull them in 4 or 5 different directions.

 

Also, if you're in a good guild, the system that they're going to implement will work just fine for you anyway. Heck, you will probably be talking about your logs over vent when you wipe to figure out what happened.

 

 

Bioware is trying to cater to both audience here. You have the data required to clear that nightmare mode and I have the ability to have a fun group experience without giving jerks fuel to belittle the other part members.

[LizardSF]

Understand, currently the new logs are only accessable outside of the game and only display information that has happened to you. (ie the "what happened to me" button in WoW's combat log). DO NOT VOTE if you do not understand combat logs, what kind of combat logs they are implementing (only self, a lot of people do not understand this as I have read from answers to other threads), or if you intend to troll.

 

Translation: Please only vote if you agree with me.

 

Also understand that it will be MORE DIFFICULT for BioWare to implement TRULY difficult content with more engaging mechanics without the use of combat logs and logging for improvement.

 

Translation: In order to make combat more challenging, it has to be made less challenging. If this makes sense to you, please vote in my poll! If you think this is self-evident nonsense, you're not the kind of person I want voting. Shoo!

[Loendar]

Either way, all you have to do to get what YOU want is simply not use logs and meters. If the people who hate metrics truly are the majority, like you guys say, then you should have no trouble at all finding like minded people to play with.

 

Meanwhile, he can play the game the way he wants, and so can you.

 

But you'd rather try to force him to play it your way.

 

I'm not forcing anything on him - I don't work for Bioware and I didn't make this decision.

 

I happen to support their decision but you are placing your venom on the wrong party.

 

Of course - if he/you are given exactly what YOU are asking for then you are automatically able to impose your 'l33t-ness' on me without any input from me. Right now, with the impending implementation, I can decide to allow you to have my log and parse it.

 

This implementation allows for me to choose (and you to choose, and your raid leader to mandate it to their members and choose) - your implementation preference removes the choice.

[ferroz]

Okay - so you think that what they are offering when they say that they are sending the logs to your hard drive is ... what exactly? That they will be storing up everything you are doing during your session on their server somewhere and then will dump it to you upon request?

Why else would they call it downloadable?

 

I can't think of any reason that they would use that word (downloadable) if they were talking real time, automatically writing the drive.

 

they haven't actually used "real-time" in any of the times that they've talked about it... so I think it's premature to assume that this is going to be the case.

 

As for getting what he wants - he has stated more than a few times that he really wants to see what he is doing and use it to improve himself (sometimes he flip-flops into wanting everything from everyone as well). So, at a minimum, he will be getting what he says he wants in percentage of his posts on the subject.

I've looked over a few of his posts and he seems to be clearly asking for more than that. Edited March 8, 2012 by ferroz

[Andryah]

It's an ego thing. I believe he honestly thought the only people who would vote in his poll were people who agreed with him. Hell, he may have even thought already that because he wanted it, everyone did.

 

It is a real problem on Internet forums. Posters believing that they speak for some vast majority of people that only exist in their own heads.

 

Accurate assessment, IMO.

 

Back in the forums before launch, they actually had a polling feature here. One after another some self-interested party would start a poll, even skew it to try to get the result they wanted, and the community voted and the poll creator would get all beligerant that people would vote differently then they wanted them to.

 

While this poll sample size is fairly small, it's enough votes (sufficient random inputs to be statistially usable) to indicate the community feeling on the question. Yet people continue to come to this thread and argue in favor of something Bioware already said they are not going to do.

 

I'm surprised the OP has not complained that people stuffed the ballot box or some other lame reason to continue the argumentative progression.

[Vydor_HC]

Why else would they call it downloadable?

 

I can't think of any reason that they would use that word (downloadable) if they were talking real time, automatically writing the drive.

 

I've looked over a few of his posts and he seems to be clearly asking for more than that.

 

My recollection of that summit and the verbiage around download able was in reference to sharing the info with others, and that there will be an option to have the log written to disk.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Akash]

Absolutely we need real-time performance meters with UI overlay.

 

There is no reason why this should not be implemented ASAP.

[Loendar]

Why else would they call it downloadable?

 

I can't think of any reason that they would use that word (downloadable) if they were talking real time, automatically writing the drive.

 

I've looked over a few of his posts and he seems to be clearly asking for more than that.

 

You are correct when you previously stated that we don't actually know what they mean. They do say 'downloadable' and maybe it is - but that seems like an odd way to do it. The amount of additional overhead they would have to put in place just to store that information server-side until requested for everyone playing the game would seem to be prohibitive.

 

Again - anything is possible.

 

And, I know that he would overwhelmingly prefer to have everyone's information presented to him BUT he has also stated more than a few times that he wants to see his stuff to make himself better. Usually when someone calls him out on wanting to judge other people he flops to the 'nope- just me!' response.

[GalacticKegger]

Actually OP, there is nothing that needs re-evaluation. The dev panel clearly stated in the Guild Summit what their intentions were and are for this game - and that is simply no combat assist macros or addons. They want the game played on its merits, with pure player skill and teamwork to be the determining factors in an encounter's success or failure. That book is closed.

[Andryah]

Of course - if he/you are given exactly what YOU are asking for then you are automatically able to impose your 'l33t-ness' on me without any input from me. Right now, with the impending implementation, I can decide to allow you to have my log and parse it.

 

This implementation allows for me to choose (and you to choose, and your raid leader to mandate it to their members and choose) - your implementation preference removes the choice.

 

EXACTLY. The approach Bioware takes lets each person decide what level of leet speak epeen festing they wish to participate in. In games like WoW, this was taken away from the general player and it was wrong. The Bioware approach respects each players boundaries about something that has been heavily abused in other MMOs.

 

Give people log capability. Then let them decide who they share that information with and how. In the age of the modern internet, these individual files can be easily consolidated by progression guilds (which as far as I am concerned are the only entities that have an actual productive need for multi-party consolidated combat log information) and used by the leadership to refine their raid performance (which is mostly a post analytical activity to begin with).

[Stupiddrummer]

Not all of us have time to even play with a guild. Heck, it's why dungeon finder tools are so popular. It allows people to play group content without any ties to the other players. That way, they can play the way they want to for those few hours without having other people trying to pull them in 4 or 5 different directions.

 

Also, if you're in a good guild, the system that they're going to implement will work just fine for you anyway. Heck, you will probably be talking about your logs over vent when you wipe to figure out what happened.

 

 

Bioware is trying to cater to both audience here. You have the data required to clear that nightmare mode and I have the ability to have a fun group experience without giving jerks fuel to belittle the other part members.

 

You're absolutely right. WoW was a cess-pool of hate until the almighty cross server LFD was introduced and cooperation and friendship were spread faster than a chuck norris joke.

 

The logs are inconvenient. I want real time meters, just like the other MMOs.

 

Bioware is trying to cater to people that never played an MMO before, by making the game not an MMO. Dedicated MMO players are going to realize there is nothing to aspire for in this game, and leave for another game were people appreciate progress.

 

This game needs dedicated/hardcore people to increase the games longevity, or else you're going to have a consumer base that lvls to 50 and stops playing.

[ferroz]

My recollection of that summit and the verbiage around download able was in reference to sharing the info with others.

If it's writing real time to the hard drive, then you would just share that file... you wouldn't need to download a special file to do so. A file that is written directly to your computer isn't downloadable... it's not even downloaded. It's just written to your computer.

 

Add in: they've made comments in the past about the combat log existing already server side, and that it was cut from the client for performance reasons. That statement makes 0 sense if the info is already available to the game client. It's quite possible that this means that the detailed info doesn't get transferred to the client, so what they're going to add is something that queries the existing server combat log, filters it in some way, and then spits out a log file based on time frame you give it.

 

I'm not saying this this definitely the case... just that I think we should wait until they clarify it a bit more before assuming that people are going to be able to parse it in real time.

 

One additional note: even if the log file is being written directly on your machine, you may not be able to parse it in real time: If they use mandatory file locking, you wouldn't be able to open it for reading while logging is enabled. I'd say that'd be bad programming, but if their goal is to prevent people from using it while they are playing, they might do that intentionally.

[Matte_Black]

EXACTLY. The approach Bioware takes lets each person decide what level of leet speak epeen festing they wish to participate in. In games like WoW, this was taken away from the general player and it was wrong. The Bioware approach respects each players boundaries about something that has been heavily abused in other MMOs.

 

Give people log capability. Then let them decide who they share that information with and how. In the age of the modern internet, these individual files can be easily consolidated by progression guilds (which as far as I am concerned are the only entities that have an actual productive need for multi-party consolidated combat log information) and used by the leadership to refine their raid performance (which is mostly a post analytical activity to begin with).

 

You make good points, those calling for real-time combat logs seem to assume that everyone wants to discuss the game mechanics while playing. Some players just want to run the missions and analyze later while still others don't want to break their story-oriented play down to numbers at all. Those numbers will be available soon but, largely behind the scenes where many players prefer them.