PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Loendar]

no no, exactly that is my understanding as well. which is the whole problem.

 

I was mentioning dps meters because this is what the whole discussion revolves around. Read through this thread, 9/10 responses put combat log = dps meter / group parsing.

 

The whole discussion revolves around people who are apparently very afraid of dps meters for obvious reasons and people who lobby hard for them for equally obvious reasons. I don't care about any of these people.

 

I want one of the most basic MMO features, that's all. I want my combat log.

 

I don't want Bioware's warped idea of a combat log that will most likely be clunky to use, require me to sift through meaningless data and worst of all - isn't implemented in the game but requires me to work through the data outside of the game.

 

I don't want to do any parsing. I want to look at my combat log while playing the game and be able to see instantly what happened to my character over the last 20 seconds or so. I want it all, the damage I ate, the damage I dealt, the mitigation and DR on both sides, my parries, dodges, shields and misses. I want to see the name of the player dotting me up, I want to see when the boss crit me, I want to see everything I might possibly want to know, in the game, instantly.

 

And no, it might seem like it but it's not too much to ask for a game like this.

Because that is exactly the way everybody has been doing it in any other MMO for the last 15 years or so.

 

I'm not from WoW. I don't play a game that automatically populates combat logs into the game experience. I'm from EQ2 and I use ACT to parse the log file real-time and display it on my G15 LCD display.

 

That same functionality could be incorporated with this implementation but only for your DPS/information. I have no issue with this and you are still able to get what you want (even real-time if you make the effort).

[Englefield]

What? It is about the combat log that was announced at the guild summit. You are arguing points while missing information.

 

 

I understand the information, thanks.

 

You started this thread and poll drumming up support for your point of view and the community that you are part of has rejected your idea by 3:1. Instead of blaming us for not understanding your point of view you have to accept that people here, for the most part, fully understand but happen to disagree with you. It's nothing personal.

 

Everyones voice here is equal. You asked for our opinions and we're giving them to you.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Englefield

[Galbatorrix]

Combat logs should be there and visible to every one.

 

All I see from people saying 'no' is that they are afraid there will be hard facts to show that their play style is bad and they will get kicked from their groups.

 

Sorry, I'm not willing to waste my precious play time just because somebody doesn't know how to play.

 

 

And what about when the top DPS in that run is complaining the whole time because no one else matches up to his awesomeness? Kick him? Ok, but what about when it happens the next run? And the run after that? Not everyone is scared that they'll be kicked from groups. Some of us, myself included, are enjoying not having the drama that comes a long with full DPS meters and we don't want what is now a dynamic experience becoming a DPS race.

 

Heck, right now, on my Commando, I may stop mid fight and start throwing out heals if the group is getting bombarded. How many people will do that once others start blasting them for lower DPS output?

[mufutiz]

Yeah for empty appeals. You might as well have appealed to god's law there. If it is "common sense" then it should have some easily presented reasons behind it, not appeals to tradition or popularity. Present such or don't bother. Empty arguments are not arguments.

 

 

I posted before why combat logs are important for many players. if you don't care to know what happened to your character, that's your decision and I do respect it.

And If you are looking for more arguments, reread my last couple of posts and look a little harder. Not going to repeat myself. Read them, understand them, don't just look for ways you can twist them around to drag on this entirely meaningless and otiose dispute.

 

 

that being said, we can have a proper discussion about MMO's once you know what you are talking about and reached a point where I can deem wasting more time than I already did on you, worthy. Until then I have to treat you just like the rest of the trolls and fanboys.

Edited March 7, 2012 by mufutiz

[Starglide]

Here is your quote.

 

 

 

You say combat logs, not me. So, my question is, if the developers are saying what you claim they are saying, why are you arguing for it as if they are not? And why start this poll?

 

Also, can you provide me the link to the dev statement about what you claim they said?

 

Improving combat logs does not me they are implementing traditional combat logs. Why are you still missing my point and arguing something that is quite minute to the grand scheme of the thread.

 

Also, go find it yourself. Type SWTOR combat logs in Google and you will see similar statements recorded. The best way to get the most accurate is by watching the guild summit video.

[Starglide]

No.

 

 

I have seen it misused by other people too many times so the way they are doing it is the way it should be.

 

 

Note: Starglide, don't bother arguing with me my answer is still no or do you not understand some people don't like the idea so you think by arguing with them you can make them see your way.

 

You asked for their vote yet when they say no you constantly argue with them or is this your way of starting an argument.

 

If having a discussion and debating is considered arguing and/or disruptive, then forums, or socializing for that matter, is simply not for you.

 

You basically just posted you opinion and asked for no one to combat it. As many claim my attitude is exactly why there shouldn't be traditional combat logs; your attitude is exactly why I feel people should entertain it because most people that do not want combat logs are completely non-objective.

 

I agree to see both sides of the argument and provide responses for both. What can't you?

 

 

I would also like to point out the fact that someone stated that they do not want combat logs because they feel it makes the game easier. I respected that argument and moved on. It was a rather good statement.

 

The statements I argue with are the narrow minded "We don't want people to judge us therefore don't include something that can have 10000 other uses because we are afraid of the one MISS-USE that might occur".

Edited March 7, 2012 by Starglide

[Dodia]

I vote YES to a viable, working combat log that not only shows you what you did but what was done to you as well. How the hell this game made it out of beta without a viable combat log I do not understand.

 

Also, some of you are clearly confused about what a combat log is and what a damage meter is. They are two entirely different animals. Don't get me wrong, though, damage meters are also a good thing as they show who is underperforming and who isn't. Don't like them? That's probably because you're a baddie that doesn't want others to see just how bad you really are. Learn your rotation, gear properly, and you won't be "griefed" (lol).

[mufutiz]

I'm not from WoW. I don't play a game that automatically populates combat logs into the game experience. I'm from EQ2 and I use ACT to parse the log file real-time and display it on my G15 LCD display.

 

That same functionality could be incorporated with this implementation but only for your DPS/information. I have no issue with this and you are still able to get what you want (even real-time if you make the effort).

 

 

Still, why force people to go through that extra trouble... I actually use the G15 myself by the way and all I need as far as combat data goes is my dear friend, good ol' combat log.

 

You say you come from a EQ II background. That game had a combat log as well....I am not talking about anything extensive here. Just the basic combat log...

Edited March 7, 2012 by mufutiz

[mufutiz]

I vote YES to a viable, working combat log that not only shows you what you did but what was done to you as well. How the hell this game made it out of beta without a viable combat log I do not understand.

 

Well, that's one thing. Doesn't make a great impression but it is acceptable.

 

Especially because Bioware promised to patch proper combat logs in later.

 

But now they come out of the bushes and tell us combat logs are NOT going to be in the game? At all? They should have saved that one for april fools.

 

and at the same time announcing to work on future ways to support people with ways to evaluate their performance/ their groups performance.

 

 

How about supporting a way to just retrace what happened to your character within the last 20 seconds or so.... that would be a start.

Edited March 7, 2012 by mufutiz

[ProfessorWalsh]

If having a discussion and debating is considered arguing and/or disruptive, then forums, or socializing for that matter, is simply not for you.

 

You basically just posted you opinion and asked for no one to combat it. As many claim my attitude is exactly why there shouldn't be traditional combat logs; your attitude is exactly why I feel people should entertain it because most people that do not want combat logs are completely non-objective.

 

I agree to see both sides of the argument and provide responses for both. What can't you?

 

 

I would also like to point out the fact that someone stated that they do not want combat logs because they feel it makes the game easier. I respected that argument and moved on. It was a rather good statement.

 

The statements I argue with are the narrow minded "We don't want people to judge us therefore don't include something that can have 10000 other uses because we are afraid of the one MISS-USE that might occur".

 

Scarlet and I usually do not see eye to eye in this matter but I do have to throw my support in with her on this one.

 

Traditional combat logs (also known as comprehensive combat logs) can cause problems as people use them to grief others. They use them to attack others as well. Sometimes people get caught up bragging about how they beat everyone else out in DPS or they belittle those who were below an imaginary benchmark.

 

Not everyone uses them for those purposes of course but some do.

 

I feel going with the "personal combat log" approach allows for most of the desires of the "comprehensive" crowd (I can see what killed me, I can see how much damage I am doing, I can see how much damage is being done to me) but also serves specifically to curtail the uses of abuse.

 

Does this mean that people will be able to analyze their log and find out if so and so did X damage or if they stood in the fire? No. However, you don't really need that information from a log. You can see if people are standing in a fire and people can check for themselves to see their damage.

 

Realistically if an enrage timer isn't hit you know that there wasn't enough DPS and you can ask people to step it up, but you don't really have the right to label someone as a "baddy" by using the log system.

[Stupiddrummer]

And what about when the top DPS in that run is complaining the whole time because no one else matches up to his awesomeness? Kick him? Ok, but what about when it happens the next run? And the run after that? Not everyone is scared that they'll be kicked from groups. Some of us, myself included, are enjoying not having the drama that comes a long with full DPS meters and we don't want what is now a dynamic experience becoming a DPS race.

 

Heck, right now, on my Commando, I may stop mid fight and start throwing out heals if the group is getting bombarded. How many people will do that once others start blasting them for lower DPS output?

 

if a group is going to blast you for doing that you shouldn't be running with them in the first place. If the group didn't notice you had to stop dpsing to heal (which im sure they would cuz that means ***** probably just hit the fan) then you are probably to good for that group.

 

i dont see what dps meters have anything to do with this.

[Loendar]

Still, why force people to go through that extra trouble... I actually use the G15 myself by the way and all I need as far as combat data goes is my dear friend, good ol' combat log.

 

You say you come from a EQ II background. That game had a combat log as well....I am not talking about anything extensive here. Just the basic combat log...

 

And you are getting that... granted, just for YOUR data, but you are getting it.

 

Is that where the problem is? You want everyone elses data as well without having to ask for it?

 

Maybe that is where we have our disconnect. I don't think you need to see my information to make yourself a better player. But if you feel you must have it, you can always ask.

[Kakachan]

POLL

 

I want to create this poll to try and get a sensus on combat logs and the importance of real logs along with DPS meters, threat meters and the like. Please keep this discussion civil. Below is what I wrote in the UI thread from the guild summit.

 

Understand, currently the new logs are only accessable outside of the game and only display information that has happened to you. (ie the "what happened to me" button in WoW's combat log). DO NOT VOTE if you do not understand combat logs, what kind of combat logs they are implementing (only self, a lot of people do not understand this as I have read from answers to other threads), or if you intend to troll.

 

NOTE:

 

Combat logs serve important for the future of DPS meters, threat meters and all around important additions that will help improve the overall performance of players, knowledge of players and most importantly CONTROL of your character.

 

Also understand that it will be MORE DIFFICULT for BioWare to implement TRULY difficult content with more engaging mechanics without the use of combat logs and logging for improvement.

 

They will give you target dummies with 1.2 patch, if you are that concerned about your dps just take a watch and dps it for 3-4 min and choose best spec for you... combat log is useful sometimes but if it will lead us to dps/threat meters it will lessens games non-existing fun... also it will just affect bad players, either they will look realy bad and will not accepted by any group or they will use these meters to improve their dps and look like good player, I dont think none of these are good things

[Stupiddrummer]

They will give you target dummies with 1.2 patch, if you are that concerned about your dps just take a watch and dps it for 3-4 min and choose best spec for you... combat log is useful sometimes but if it will lead us to dps/threat meters it will lessens games non-existing fun... also it will just affect bad players, either they will look realy bad and will not accepted by any group or they will use these meters to improve their dps and look like good player, I dont think none of these are good things

 

i'm glad you are looking out for all the bad players feelings. I don't see why bad players couldn't also make good use of combat data.

[valgar]

Well,

I guess the people have spoken, and the majority by a LARGE margin just don't want it.

 

AMEN to that!

[mufutiz]

And you are getting that... granted, just for YOUR data, but you are getting it.

 

Is that where the problem is? You want everyone elses data as well without having to ask for it?

 

Maybe that is where we have our disconnect. I don't think you need to see my information to make yourself a better player. But if you feel you must have it, you can always ask.

 

Again, you're not understanding the root of the problem, it seems you have some faulty information about the logs!! There are no combat logs coming. The little tab you had in EQ2 next to your default chat tab? The one that read 'combat'? That is not going to be in swtor.

 

I don't care about your combat information, all I need is to see what happened to my character and what my character made happen to other npcs and players. Like clicking on the combat tab in EQ2... this strange out-of-game parser is all we are getting here and that is ridiculous.

Edited March 7, 2012 by mufutiz

[Vydor_HC]

Improving combat logs does not me they are implementing traditional combat logs. Why are you still missing my point and arguing something that is quite minute to the grand scheme of the thread.

 

Also, go find it yourself. Type SWTOR combat logs in Google and you will see similar statements recorded. The best way to get the most accurate is by watching the guild summit video.

 

Well, you made the claim, if you wish to defend it, do so.

 

As for the logs, I think you will need to define what you view as "traditional", because the things I have heard from them indicate they are providing what I consider combat logs.

[mufutiz]

Well,

I guess the people have spoken, and the majority by a LARGE margin just don't want it.

 

AMEN to that!

 

How well do you think 87 (!) random players actually represent the hundreds of thousands of players actually playing the game?

 

Maybe the one thing we can learn from it is that the bad players, the ones actually afraid to get called out on their subpar performance spend too much time on the forums instead of playing the game and working on improving themselves?

 

just kidding of course!

[Loendar]

Again, you're not understanding the root of the problem, it seems you have some faulty information about the logs!! There are no combat logs coming. The little tab you had in EQ2 next to your default chat tab? The one that read 'combat'? That is not going to be in swtor.

 

I don't care about your combat information, all I need is to see what happened to my character and what my character made happen to other npcs and players. Like clicking on the combat tab in EQ2... this strange out-of-game parser is all we are getting here and that is ridiculous.

 

Honestly - I think you are the one misunderstanding what is coming. They stated that you will have a log dumping to your hard drive which contains everything that you did/was done to you.

 

That is what EQ2 does only it includes everyone for the actual parseable combat log.

 

You could write an ACT plug-in that parses that data as it is written and displays it to you on the G15.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Loendar

[Galbatorrix]

if a group is going to blast you for doing that you shouldn't be running with them in the first place. If the group didn't notice you had to stop dpsing to heal (which im sure they would cuz that means ***** probably just hit the fan) then you are probably to good for that group.

 

i dont see what dps meters have anything to do with this.

 

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is that DPS meters discourage dynamic game play. Right now, you can run away from AOEs, throw out a quick heal, switch to tank stance to taunt off a tank about to die, etc, and no one says anything if the group survives. There's no finger pointing or any of that stuff. Add in DPS meters and you have DPS who refuse to break their rotations because they want to "win" the DPS race. So the healers job is more difficult because the DPS no longer avoid anything and on top of that, the DPS normally do nothing but DPS in fear that some one will call them out if they drop below some magical arbitrary number for their current level.

 

 

All this while the bosses are dying regardless....

 

 

Honestly, they kind of do kill fun and make the game feel more like work. I like not having to worry about anything other than "did we clear the content?". Right now, it's a group effort. With DPS meters, it's a "Well, I was doing MY part!" type every man for himself affair.

[Darth_Victus]

No. Don't turn this into WoW!

 

This.

 

Recount while a useful tool was abused constantly by self proclaimed elitists.

[Digstar]

I thinks a combat log/stats system is a decent idea. For me, guildies (from another mmo) have been able to provide feedback when in dungeons/instances. Such feedback then encouraged me to look at my rotation etc when in parties.

 

I can understand why a lot of people are not keen on the idea. In my case, I rarely do PUG dungeons/FP's anyway so I don't have any problems with "leetist" "no lifers" whom suck the fun out of what's supposed to be entertainment.

[Dayln]

I think the MMO impaired that need such things as combat logs and dps meters to be successful should either learn to play better, or embrace their lot.

 

don’t nerf the game for all of us because they are having difficulty

[Stupiddrummer]

The point I'm trying to make is that DPS meters discourage dynamic game play. Right now, you can run away from AOEs, throw out a quick heal, switch to tank stance to taunt off a tank about to die, etc, and no one says anything if the group survives. There's no finger pointing or any of that stuff. Add in DPS meters and you have DPS who refuse to break their rotations because they want to "win" the DPS race. So the healers job is more difficult because the DPS no longer avoid anything and on top of that, the DPS normally do nothing but DPS in fear that some one will call them out if they drop below some magical arbitrary number for their current level.

 

 

All this while the bosses are dying regardless....

 

 

Honestly, they kind of do kill fun and make the game feel more like work. I like not having to worry about anything other than "did we clear the content?". Right now, it's a group effort. With DPS meters, it's a "Well, I was doing MY part!" type every man for himself affair.

 

DPS meters dont discourage dynamic game play, people do. If you choose to ignore your teammates in order to max out dps, that is a personal problem.

 

Again, if you have to break your dps, something probably just went wrong with the pull and you probably wont be raving about the dps meter soon afterward, assuming you dont wipe.

 

dps meters may kill the fun for you. if that's the case, i am baffled why, given the option, you would choose to use them.

 

For me on the otherhand, dps meters increase the satisfaction of my gameplay. And you are arguing that i should be denied that satisfaction...because?

 

 

edit; nothing beats a dps being able to say, "har har, look at all the healing i did on the healing meter"

Edited March 7, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Dayln]

Just like a computer program running your chess game for you increases your enjoyment of chess

 

But don’t expect any of us to be impressed with your play

 

And you better not once ever tell someone else how they should play or we will all laugh at you