PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[JackHeart]

I vote no.

Combat logs and dps meters creates elitism.

[stineo]

WoW content and classes are designed with addon use in mind, so it's somewhere between nonsense and uselessly hypothetical to talk about playing it without addons. There is no "type of player" that uses addons in WoW, not anymore than there's a "type of player" that builds worker units in RTS, or uses companions while soloing in SWTOR.

 

Also people need to stop conflating "using damage meters to evaluate performance" with "relying on addons to play your character". These are completely different things, and the conflation of them speaks of dishonesty, or fear. People are afraid of their performance being evaluated, so they change the subject. If you have a good reason to be afraid of your performance being evaluated (maybe there is one), say it, don't change the subject.

 

That's one of the reasons why DPS meters and threat meters, etc eventually destroy any creative high end encounters. Because instead of players working on figuring out an encounter in creative ways. With damage meters encounters turn into a button smashing-fest to pull out the most dps before the stupid mob gets enraged. How hard is it for anyone to hit a stationary high end mob, while you are there going through your dps rotation. To me that is boring.

 

I know not all encounters are like the example above, but lazy Devs just end up giving us the same tactics with a few adjustments with a different skin in new patches. So to "challenge" the raiders next patch, they will have to create a new boss mob and raiders have to kill it within a fixed time period (shorter then ever before) or the whole raid dies. And the cycle continues on.

[Tiddex]

poll result right now: 75% no - 25% yes

 

summary of posts so far:

 

No voters --> on line saying: "because we do not want people to insult low dps-players"

 

Yes voters --> wall of text insulting no voters

Edited March 7, 2012 by Tiddex

[DarthKhaos]

I vote NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The personal combat log they are planning to implement is enough for YOU to do YOUR theory crafting to make YOURSELF a better player.

[kjryx]

My vote's no. Out of game logs are fine to help guilds fine tune their tactics for progression, and for the community to get numbers to see how classes should stack up against each other in some scenarios.

 

When raiding in other games that had in-game combat logging (and add-ons to parse them), we never used them for raid tactics. Players might brag about the numbers they pulled on specific encounters, but it was the overall raid logs that mattered and that were used to help fine-tune tactics. I never saw in-game logs used in a constructive manner outside of regular groups, and regular groups can also get the info they need from out-of-game logs.

[notebene]

SMOKE

 

I think their solution is fine. Given that they already have performance problems, writing them out to log files that can be parsed externally is fine. Don't worry, better programmers than me will make some awesome tools that will parse them on the fly in the background and upload them to locations where you can share them with yourself/guild/everyone.

 

So as a raid/guild leader, if you want to be a l33t d00dz type-o-guy, you can make it a requirement for your guild to run this app to collect data and make it visible to the guild.

 

If you want ep33n only PUGs, you can include some sort of "Must Use Gaylord McUploader Tool" in your LFG messages.

 

It'll be fine.

[Ichikitsune]

The problem is people are confusing addons like Recount and Skada with combat logs. Recount and Skada have always been unreliable, always have been it just gives you a snapshot of who is closes to you. If they were reliable then you wouldn't have 6 people with 6 different numbers at every boss.

 

Combat logs, which we are getting is totally different from above, World of Logs gives far more information that is accurate and is external. The devs got this one right. As a raid leader I required Recount and Skada be turned off in a raid for the simple fact of tunnel visioning DPS. When something happened it is easier to Alt+Tab to WoL and bam all the info is there, dps, threats, heals, what actually caused the wipe etc.

 

What it boils down to is we are getting combat logs not Recount or Skada.

[ivanhedgehog]

Have you ever played WOW? I've had random pugs where the HEALER complained non-stop that the DPS was too low and the run was taking too long. I've had DPS players in top tier gear bashing DPSers that just started that tier of content (ie their gear is not as good). I've had tanks hate on DPS for having lower DPS than them. All this happening as the bosses all died with no issues. That IS griefing.

 

 

Sorry, but I don't want every group I join to become a peeing contest when the bosses are being downed regardless.

 

 

So, again, I say no.

 

I have had an idiot start posting dps meters in chat as soon as the run started. he proceded to berate me for "afking and not contributing". after which the tank pointed out that I was the healer and wasnt supposed to dps. I made sure that the moron got zero healing that run....

 

Another run through scarlet monastery, me on my 85 mage running a guildy through. allowed someone wanting a run to join us...he proceeded to start posting dps meters....he was told to stop and he replied with garbage about "bads". compared to a 85 mage in a 35 instance, any one is bad. so I kicked his bad butt out.

 

while 5 people might use open dps meters as a teaching tool, 500 will use it as a club. I have played many games without meters, if you cant figure out who is disrupting things, you need to find another hobby.

[Tiddex]

SMOKE

 

So as a raid/guild leader, if you want to be a l33t d00dz type-o-guy, you can make it a requirement for your guild to run this app to collect data and make it visible to the guild.

 

If you want ep33n only PUGs, you can include some sort of "Must Use Gaylord McUploader Tool" in your LFG messages.

 

It'll be fine.

 

These are the droids we are looking for!

[Ushela]

All the bads are happy, and all the serious raiders are not. What else is there to say?

[Englefield]

No, good features are good features.

 

Releasing an MMO now without a combat log is like releasing a new car model without air conditioning.

 

This forum is obssesed with car and food analogies, however if you insist....

 

You saw a car without aircon, then you brought the car and and now driving the car without aircon. You chose to have a car without air conditioning, so why do you think you're now owed it? You really should have stuck with your old car.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Englefield

[genesiser]

Their solution is something a game was doing... 11 years ago. FFXI had a parser program that you ran in the back ground and every time you finished a fight it would make a noise which you then had to alt tab (if you had the windower) to look at it. It had no report feature, you just typed to you party who did what.

 

Way to stay with the times bioware and ea... way to stay with the times.

[RuQu]

People are going to find a way to exclude and filter players no matter what.

 

In WoW it was gearscore requirements to get into content, achievement linking, and getting kicked if you weren't high enough on the meters.

 

Excluding meters won't prevent that. People can still exclude you based on gear, and if the boss isn't dying fast enough they will still try to assign blame.

 

Meters are a tool. Yes, they can be used to discriminate against the low performers, but that is not the fault of the tool.

 

Without them a mediocre geared player who is playing well might be out-DPSing a well-geared player who is just terrible at their class, but the group kicks the guy who was actually more than pulling his weight. With meters, they know to talk to the right person, give him advice, tips, etc on how to play his class better.

 

Meters don't make people elitist. Those people will be jerks no matter what tools you give them because its the internet and they can get away with it.

 

Meters do let you compare performance so you can give advice to people who underperform and ask advice from people who outperform you.

 

Don't blame the tool, blame the user.

[Brutus]

I'm against combat logging/reporting of any kind. I used dps meters and the like in WoW, and I spent so much time "improving my performance" that it actually detracted from my enjoyment of the game.

 

I like the way BW is handling this so far. If people want to use their own logs, great... let them do their own math. But don't force the 00ber l33tness on those of us who would rather focus on the story and the experience rather than the math...

[Loendar]

Their solution is something a game was doing... 11 years ago. FFXI had a parser program that you ran in the back ground and every time you finished a fight it would make a noise which you then had to alt tab (if you had the windower) to look at it. It had no report feature, you just typed to you party who did what.

 

Way to stay with the times bioware and ea... way to stay with the times.

 

You get everything you need with this implementation. You can see what YOU are doing and tweak to your hearts content. If you want to judge your buddies you can ask for theirs and, if they are willing, you can berate them as well.

 

There is zero requirement for more than what they are providing.

[Ichikitsune]

All the bads are happy, and all the serious raiders are not. What else is there to say?

 

Cause we are getting combat logs and not Recount??

[Stupiddrummer]

All the bads are happy, and all the serious raiders are not. What else is there to say?

 

What else needs to be said? Nothing - you have shown everyone the error of their ways and I probably didn't need to say it.

[Solo_Han]

Firstly, youre getting combat logs.

 

Second, just because "people will be people" doesnt mean you leave it at anarchy. Yeah, even now you may get some tools who start berating your gear, spec, or HP even (a new one for me in SWTOR) ... that doesnt mean you give them another tool to make it more convenient for them. You regulate, restrict, and make rules against it as any government does when things being misused become a problem (guns for example). That is what Bioware is doing. Its what all devs should have done the minute it became a problem to the community.

 

I get what you're saying. But as many others have said, to keep players, you need strong end gameplay. To create strong end gameplay the answer isn't (as I feel Bioware thinks) content. The answer is to challenge your players.

 

Chess has been around for over a thousand years. It's just one game, one set of rules, same board, same pieces, same beginning, same final outcome. What makes it so interesting to play is that it's challenging.

 

If you've played the Ops in TOR, then you'll agree, they're not particularly challenging.

 

More to the point, they could be made more challenging (more damage dealt, more boss hp, etc), but that doesn't make it more entertaining. The challenge needs to feel achievable, without the sense that you're failing because the tools you've been given aren't up to the job... I would use the analogy of unscrewing a bolt without a wrench. Now the bolt could be super tight, and a challenge to undo even with the wrench. Using the wrench to unscrew it, despite the difficulty faced in the tightness and presence of rust, would give you a sense of accomplishment, pride, and possibly a reward (you were unscrewing it for a reason). Without the wrench, the whole process becomes frustrating and unpleasant.

 

 

When you have a team of players, some better than others, then you need the ability to analyse data to see what's working, and what isn't (simply, not by trying to append 8/16 individual combat logs together). Using the analogy of chess again. It's like playing a game as a team with four other people. You take it in turns to make a move against your opponent, but you never see your team mates make their moves. You keep losing. You don't know why... You're not sure who's not making the right moves, or even if everyone on your team understands the rules properly. Without being able to see you can't lead your team, and therefore can't succeed against a more challenging opponent.

 

 

I really do understand why people wouldn't want a combat log. But I think for seriously challenging content to appear in the game, it is going to be necessary to have a grouped combat log, in game.

[Zarrot]

No, individual combat logs for tuning and performance are great. Anything beyond that is unnecessary and a crutch for players who never learn how to actually play the game or their characters and rely on flashing lights to do it for them. Real leaders lead fine without gadgets.

[Stupiddrummer]

No, individual combat logs for tuning and performance are great. Anything beyond that is unnecessary and a crutch for players who never learn how to actually play the game or their characters and rely on flashing lights to do it for them. Real leaders lead fine without gadgets.

 

so my dps friend and i shouldn't be allowed to compete with each other to see you can do the most dps?

[Loendar]

I get what you're saying. But as many others have said, to keep players, you need strong end gameplay. To create strong end gameplay the answer isn't (as I feel Bioware thinks) content. The answer is to challenge your players.

 

Chess has been around for over a thousand years. It's just one game, one set of rules, same board, same pieces, same beginning, same final outcome. What makes it so interesting to play is that it's challenging.

 

If you've played the Ops in TOR, then you'll agree, they're not particularly challenging.

 

More to the point, they could be made more challenging (more damage dealt, more boss hp, etc), but that doesn't make it more entertaining. The challenge needs to feel achievable, without the sense that you're failing because the tools you've been given aren't up to the job... I would use the analogy of unscrewing a bolt without a wrench. Now the bolt could be super tight, and a challenge to undo even with the wrench. Using the wrench to unscrew it, despite the difficulty faced in the tightness and presence of rust, would give you a sense of accomplishment, pride, and possibly a reward (you were unscrewing it for a reason). Without the wrench, the whole process becomes frustrating and unpleasant.

 

 

When you have a team of players, some better than others, then you need the ability to analyse data to see what's working, and what isn't (simply, not by trying to append 8/16 individual combat logs together). Using the analogy of chess again. It's like playing a game as a team with four other people. You take it in turns to make a move against your opponent, but you never see your team mates make their moves. You keep losing. You don't know why... You're not sure who's not making the right moves, or even if everyone on your team understands the rules properly. Without being able to see you can't lead your team, and therefore can't succeed against a more challenging opponent.

 

 

I really do understand why people wouldn't want a combat log. But I think for seriously challenging content to appear in the game, it is going to be necessary to have a grouped combat log, in game.

 

It can be very easily argued that adding combat logs, which gives you information on the fights that you don't even need currently, makes the encounters easier - not harder. It is far more challenging to figure out the encounter based on in-game events than looking at a log and seeing exactly what happened.

 

In fact, combat logs will make the content that currently exists even easier to figure out because the work is being done for you.

 

Hard core people that really want a challenge and aren't just paying it lipservice should be adamantly against being spoon fed encounter data.

[-Fritz-]

so my dps friend and i shouldn't be allowed to compete with each other to see you can do the most dps?

 

 

sure you can.

 

you can yell out on vent "OMG I JUST CRIT FOR 10 BILLION!! EAT THAT COMPETITION FRIEND PERSON!"

 

 

 

...but if you mean can you spam chat with damage meters over and over being an annoyance to everyone around you? no, because thats dumb.

[Stupiddrummer]

It can be very easily argued that adding combat logs, which gives you information on the fights that you don't even need currently, makes the encounters easier - not harder. It is far more challenging to figure out the encounter based on in-game events than looking at a log and seeing exactly what happened.

 

In fact, combat logs will make the content that currently exists even easier to figure out because the work is being done for you.

 

Hard core people that really want a challenge and aren't just paying it lipservice should be adamantly against being spoon fed encounter data.

 

that sounds like a content problem not a dps meter problem

[Zarrot]

so my dps friend and i shouldn't be allowed to compete with each other to see you can do the most dps?

 

You don't need a meter for that; dual whoever lives has more DPS. Send your logs to each other. You can play with each others logs for hours oowing and ahhing.

[Darcedge]

You got personal logs so that you can see how you are doing? What more do you need?

 

Personally I really like the decision BW has made with only showing me mine, I like it. I want to CHOOSE who can see how I am doing.

 

I like the decision as well. The post right before yours however saying that there could be an option to share your info with the group would be cool as well.

 

That way doing a FP with friends and you can talk trash to each other on dps would be fun, but like he said, just having the option to share it would be cool I think.