PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[-Fritz-]

That doesn't tell me, as a raid leader, if one of my DPS is not doing their job.

 

Hitting enrage timers over and over because your DPS is not doing their job is irritating. But how am I supposed to help one of my raiders if I don't know what they are doing wrong?

 

honestly i would say this is biowares fault for not being able to come up with a better mechanic than enrage timers.

 

if you set up enrage timers you will always have the arguement for the elitism, since they can claim its required to win.

 

 

 

 

then again, like someone said earlier, groups are smaller in this game and you should be able to tell whats going on without someone holding your hand.

 

if you see a trooper or smuggler constantly below 50% resources for instance you know they are not managing them properly. if you see a jedi sitting there with full resources you know hes not doing anything.

 

 

 

...and if you were a raid leader who was spending hours on wiping, i think you could take the 5 minutes out to get your combat logs outside of the game.

[Ulubatli]

Yes i igree. we need to combat log. Real combat log.

[Deathmond]

I also agree with topic starter

[Englefield]

People expect the good features that they've seen in MMO's for more than a decade; when an MMO is released that lacks one of those features, it's quite understandable that people will ask for those to be added.

 

Good for one might not be good for another and it's not that people expect good features, it's more to do with peoples inability to accept anything they aren't used to.

 

Some of us wanted something different, instead we get the same people asking for the same features until we end up with the same game in a different skin, only a bugged version with less depth. Caving in to every demand will not create more subs for this game.

[Stupiddrummer]

this game has no place for detailed metrics, competition, or even multiplayer, for that matter.

If you are playing this game you are playing it for the story and the voice acting.

 

This game has a shoehorned-in end game, very similar to the shoehorned-in space combat.

 

If you're looking for serious end-game play this game is not for you.

[Drewser]

If you are dying to enrage timers then you know your DPS is low. With that information you can communicate with your team and see what adjustments you can make (just like the good old days).

 

In the new system w/ the personal combat logs you can also ask to see them for your comrades to make future adjustments. You are getting everything you need in this implementation - just not real-time.

 

I am fine with either choice - real-time or personal logs. I just wanted to comment there are times when it matters what the "other guy" is doing and likewise times when it does not matter.

[Sbolla]

I am fine with either choice - real-time or personal logs. I just wanted to comment there are times when it matters what the "other guy" is doing and likewise times when it does not matter.

 

This is the point , dont blame the system because it's used in the wrong way by bad people.

 

 

this game has no place for detailed metrics, competition, or even multiplayer, for that matter.

If you are playing this game you are playing it for the story and the voice acting.

 

This game has a shoehorned-in end game, very similar to the shoehorned-in space combat.

 

If you're looking for serious end-game play this game is not for you.

 

I'm starting to seriously feel this as true.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Sbolla

[Drewser]

That was what I took from the guild summit forums. They really want their UI and information they provide via the encounter output to be the keys to how players beat the content. I hope they stick with that concept.

 

Nope, they have yielded because even personal logs will lead to "this is the best spec for...". I am just glad I am in a good guild of like minded people that want to have fun first and are willing to help each other without being demanding that it must be done a certain way.

[ferroz]

Good for one might not be good for another and it's not that people expect good features, it's more to do with peoples inability to accept anything they aren't used to.

No, good features are good features.

 

Releasing an MMO now without a combat log is like releasing a new car model without air conditioning.

[Tiddex]

What is wrong with BW´s concept?

 

The elitists, if they just can´t live / improve / play on without a dpsmeter, can still close their group for whoever refuses to share his battlelog with them.

 

 

You want to improve? check YOUR battlelog!

 

You want to help me? ask me for MY battlelog and analyze it with me!

 

You cannot check dps and threat on the fly? So what?

 

 

 

Do you think I buy your story that you would just want to see whos bad in order to help him, DURING the raid?

 

When will that happen? During the boss fight? Between one wipe and the next?

 

All that is time for in that situation is to kick someone, at least be honest about that.

 

 

MY battlelog is just that: MY battlelog. If you want to see it - we´re in one guild anyway, at least in most cases, are we not? We can discuss, compare, improve and HELP each other offline.

 

Elitist troll is elitist.

[ferroz]

...and if you were a raid leader who was spending hours on wiping, i think you could take the 5 minutes out to get your combat logs outside of the game.

Eh, it's not unreasonable for peopel to want to remove the 5 minutes of gathering combat logs part so that the raid leader can go straight to analysis.

 

I mean, 5 minute game enforced breaks weren't fun in EQ... that's why enchanters and bards were so popular.

[Quraswren]

For some reason it won't let me vote so I'll do it here.

 

 

NO

 

What BW has shown will give me the statistics I need to better rotations and what not. IT will also allow operation groups to pull log files from there raiders and see what changes need to be made. Most raiders will upload there files to raid sites with no problem.

 

You do not need that info in the random PUG or HM FP. Operation leaders might need it but not for random PUG groups.

 

So no on your poll.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Quraswren

[Seregul]

Class abilities, what they do, how they work, their cast times, how they interact with the GCD, how they interact with each other, their damage bounds etc.

 

Before a damage meter can be of any use, you really do have to know how to actually play your class.

 

If you do not know how to play your class, a damage meter is useless, and a large majority of the time damage meters will not make any difference and the lack of a damage meter will not impact group play in anything except the times a high end raiding group is trying to clear bleeding edge content.

 

 

I completely understand why a group trying to do the hardest and newest content would want damage meters and group wide everything, but it's only useful for them and not everyone else. This is why the compromise solution of personal, downloadable combat logs are the best solution.

 

Yes, the tooltips are very nice, but a log would provide actual feedback. Why would a feedback tool only be valuable after I've learned my class? As far as I'm concerned you never learn a class, and then are done with it. It's a constant process that happens as the game evolves.

 

I think we're on the same page as far as progressive raiding, so I won't elaborate there, but my hang up with the "personal log" is that I don't see how they could work in group setting. What are your thoughts? Perhaps it would be better to move the discussion in that direction.

[Vankris]

this game has no place for detailed metrics, competition, or even multiplayer, for that matter.

If you are playing this game you are playing it for the story and the voice acting.

 

This game has a shoehorned-in end game, very similar to the shoehorned-in space combat.

 

If you're looking for serious end-game play this game is not for you.

 

once passed the novelty of the story, the game will not survive if endgame is not "serious" and competitive.

 

This is the story of many MMO. After a few month, leveling alt, enjoying the story, what's left is endgame raiding and PVP.

 

I really want this game to grow and last years and years, but i know it won't if it does not embrace the competitive nature of player.

 

Why is wow so succesful: competitive nature of endgame (and arena)

Why is starcraft 2 so succesful: competitive, esport, tournament

Why is Counter strike/Modern Warfare so succesful: it's certainly not the solo campaign, more about the competitiveness of the multiplayer.

 

 

 

 

Sad story is that the people here refusing competitive gameplay (damage meters, player ranking) in SWToR are those who will be the first to unsub the game once they finish the story.

 

People that really want this game to succeed and plan to stay sub for years understand the need for good, challenging endgame and tools such as damage meter, macro, ...

[Loendar]

No, good features are good features.

 

Releasing an MMO now without a combat log is like releasing a new car model without air conditioning.

 

Good is a relative/opinion-based concept. You think it is good - many of us don't. You are not 'right' and we are not 'wrong'.

 

Ack! The air conditioning analogy is back!

[Drewser]

No, good features are good features.

 

Releasing an MMO now without a combat log is like releasing a new car model without air conditioning.

 

Not even close to the same. More like having a new car model without a trunk release lever in the passenger compartment. Is it nice to have? yes. Would you be miserable without that feature? no.

[LOWTHOR]

Someone will build a worldoflogs-like site to consolidate/compare individual logs, so I don't see a problem.

 

I'd make it a requirement that you save and post your logs after every operation or you don't get to join my operation.

 

Yes it is more ugly than having a single combined log, but it will still work.

 

I would rather have an offline log. I don't need realtime feedback (except for threat).

[MasterKayote]

Do you think I buy your story that you would just want to see whos bad in order to help him, DURING the raid?

 

When will that happen? During the boss fight? Between one wipe and the next?

 

All that is time for in that situation is to kick someone, at least be honest about that.

 

 

MY battlelog is just that: MY battlelog. If you want to see it - we´re in one guild anyway, at least in most cases, are we not? We can discuss, compare, improve and HELP each other offline.

 

Elitist troll is elitist.

 

Haha! Good point. If you want to help, its fully possible with the planned feature. Wanting it live and public just screams of the idiots who constantly post "I want to be able to single out the baddies and kick them" who only really serve to prove our points against them all the more ... so keep it up "cool" kids hope Bioware is reading.

Edited March 7, 2012 by MasterKayote

[Solo_Han]

I was shocked, stunned even that a combat log was omitted from this game.

 

I spent a few minutes after first loading TOR up, checking through the settings to try and find the elusive combat log.

 

I then ALT+TAB'd out of the game, loaded my good pal Google, and searched for an answer.

 

What do you think I found? There isn't one!

 

 

Now, the question is why... Sure it's easy to say 'We want to protect players from harassment from other players'. Well that's very nice of you. Unfortunately, I don't require protection.

 

Personally, I think the reason a combat log was not included originally was because there were quite severe and (despite the lack of logs) prominent balancing issues between classes and abilities.

 

Rather than making these clear to see to the user, we can hide them, and that way they might not notice until we've fixed them.

 

As time travels, and people divide their opinions about the need for a log, developers can now retire the idea of implementing a core component to any game of this type.

 

Even Baldur's Gate, a game that's 14 years old, had a combat log...

 

 

If people complain that you're not doing enough damage, or not blocking enough, or whatever, then it's probably because you're not (granted you will find the arrogant people out there who'll just complain you're not going 'fast enough'). If you can't handle the content, then you're just not ready. As an Ops leader, you can't tell who your weakest links are, who's ready for what content, and who needs assistance with their tactics/gear/rotation/etc.

 

The problem with having the combat logs, in BW's eyes, are the rude, arrogant people out there, who will use damage meters to put players down... Well BW, you can't change people. Companies, governments, monarchs; they've all tried, and none have succeeded. Some people are just 'those' people. They'll do the same even without the logs. Instead they'll just look at your equipment, and tell you that you aren't up to scratch. Even if your play style is flawless and you, in reality, out DPS someone who is much better equipped due to your ability to react and talent build.

 

 

This is my most requested feature at this moment in time. Seconded by targets target unit frames (again a foolish oversight by the dev team).

 

 

As someone mentioned earlier 'We don't want this to be WoW!', and 'We don't want to be told we have to have X addon and Y addon'. The reason people want you to use those addons is because it helps the group as a whole.

 

If TOR wants to be a long standing success they need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Modify it yes, but don't start messing with industry standards. After all, they're standard for a reason.

[CulannHS]

No to combat logs. Simple as that.

 

As a aside, since I'm a programmer and I'm pretty much vehemently against these types of things by principle anyway...

 

I may just write a app in Visual C that takes a user's combat log, asks for their class and level, the location of the combat log, and edits it to a user's inputted DPS level.

 

I'll post the app with source code on a site where it's freely downloadable, and leave it at that.

 

So..if a "siteoflogs" shows up, well anyone who wants can be top dog DPS with a few clicks of a mouse button.

 

That way if your guild leader is nagging hell out of a guild about DPS, anyone who is tired of hearing the guild leader scream, "The tank must NOT die!" can set their DPS to match whoever else's or whatever they like.

 

Did I mention I'm vehemently against combat logs?

Edited March 7, 2012 by CulannHS

[Stupiddrummer]

once passed the novelty of the story, the game will not survive if endgame is not "serious" and competitive.

 

This is the story of many MMO. After a few month, leveling alt, enjoying the story, what's left is endgame raiding and PVP.

 

I really want this game to grow and last years and years, but i know it won't if it does not embrace the competitive nature of player.

 

Why is wow so succesful: competitive nature of endgame (and arena)

Why is starcraft 2 so succesful: competitive, esport, tournament

Why is Counter strike/Modern Warfare so succesful: it's certainly not the solo campaign, more about the competitiveness of the multiplayer.

 

 

 

 

Sad story is that the people here refusing competitive gameplay (damage meters, player ranking) in SWToR are those who will be the first to unsub the game once they finish the story.

 

People that really want this game to succeed and plan to stay sub for years understand the need for good, challenging endgame and tools such as damage meter, macro, ...

 

 

I honestly think the dichotomy is between MMO vets and MMO newbies.

 

My friend is playing SWTOR as his first MMO and i practically blew his mind teaching him why his auto-attack didn't cost any energy. Mind blown even further teaching him keybinds.

 

Now if i tried to sit and explain why instant access to combat metrics are important to the overall health and longevity of the game, he would probably sit and drool at me like a baby.

 

And without that knowledge, he still blissfully enjoys his terribly inefficient gameplay. Which is fine. But he is in no position to argue against things he does not really understand.

[Centerpin]

I would like to see something similar to world of logs if that's what your getting at OP. As it does help you figure out whats going wrong with a encounter. Then I would have to agree that a place like world of logs would be very useful to end game progression. But in game dps meters no I want my raiders focusing on the task at hand not at their meter.

[Vankris]

I honestly think the dichotomy is between MMO vets and MMO newbies.

 

My friend is playing SWTOR as his first MMO and i practically blew his mind teaching him why his auto-attack didn't cost any energy. Mind blown even further teaching him keybinds.

 

Now if i tried to sit and explain why instant access to combat metrics are important to the overall health and longevity of the game, he would probably sit and drool at me like a baby.

 

And without that knowledge, he still blissfully enjoys his terribly inefficient gameplay. Which is fine. But he is in no position to argue against things he does not really understand.

 

your friend has the right to play the game how he feels it, how he wants

 

heck i started MMO not knowing anything about tank/heal/DPS holy trinity.

i remember some dungeon in vanilla , with only DPS player, many wipe, totally ineficient but we did it and it was fun.

 

But i learned, slowly, the mechanic of the game, and addons helped me learn.

 

 

It's not so much the presence of addon, damage meter that are necessary for the longevity of an MMO. It's endgame!!!

 

Endgame needs to be challenging, competitive and fun (of course).

Take a solo game, once you beat hte game, you done with it. On an MMO, once you reach max level and completed every FP/OP, are you done?

 

Well for the good of the game, hopefully not, operation need to be tough so you will need weeks, month to clear it. You will need to measure your progress.

 

Your character gain power, it's the base principle of an RPG (not even en MMORPG)

you need something to measure the gain of power of your character.

 

i say it again, people against meter, combat log are those who don't plan to continue in the game anyway, they will move on once they're bored, once the game lost it's novelty.

[MasterKayote]

The problem with having the combat logs, in BW's eyes, are the rude, arrogant people out there, who will use damage meters to put players down... Well BW, you can't change people. Companies, governments, monarchs; they've all tried, and none have succeeded. Some people are just 'those' people. They'll do the same even without the logs. Instead they'll just look at your equipment, and tell you that you aren't up to scratch. Even if your play style is flawless and you, in reality, out DPS someone who is much better equipped due to your ability to react and talent build.

 

Firstly, youre getting combat logs.

 

Second, just because "people will be people" doesnt mean you leave it at anarchy. Yeah, even now you may get some tools who start berating your gear, spec, or HP even (a new one for me in SWTOR) ... that doesnt mean you give them another tool to make it more convenient for them. You regulate, restrict, and make rules against it as any government does when things being misused become a problem (guns for example). That is what Bioware is doing. Its what all devs should have done the minute it became a problem to the community.

[NightHawke]

No. That is my vote.