PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[-Fritz-]

you know i would respect the elite types more if they would just own up to it.

 

stop pretending like you care about who you group with, making friends, or anything else and just admit the bottom line to you is killing the boss and getting your loot.

 

 

 

the whole thing of acting like you care about other people, want to help them and its just for your own information... then admitting you would kick players who perform below your standards.... it just comes off as a very shady double standard and i cant fathom that there are many intelligent people who dont notice it.

[LePoonzoo]

if i'm bad, i want the game or other people telling me that i'm bad. They don't even need to sugar-coat it, i'm not made of chocolate, i will not melt. I want to know so i can work on it and get better.

 

 

If i'm good, i want other to know that i am an asset to the group. I will not brag, i will not spam damage meter result, but people will know, that guys is a good player, we can count on him. Being accepted and trusted is a big part of a multiplayer game for me.

 

Agreed well except for the bragging part but yes always nice when people knowing you as that guy who pulls epic dps

[RealAeiouy]

This game should be rename SW: The Casuals Strikes Back.

 

Seems like you guys have a pretty rough childhood in Wow.

Time to band together and strike back against those Elitest, min/maxers, raiders, hardcores or anyone looking for a challenging content.

 

Im sure you"ll enjoy your handicapped race when all abled bodied players are gone.

 

Later

 

You need training wheel meters to do content and claim you are up for a challenge lol.

[Tewnam]

Didn't they state that combat logs are coming in 1.2 and an in game damage meter/combat statistic function sometime after that?

 

And those combat logs in 1.2 will be phrase-able. (Like how rift and EQ did it for so long).

 

People saying no:

I'm sorry you had a bad past with damage meters, but they help more than they hurt in the right hands.

How is a player to improve if he doesn't know that his DPS is lower than everyone else?

How is a player to decide what stat is better if they can't find how effective each stat is?

How is a guild to find their weak link that need improving that is holding them back?

How is a guild to know if their healers are doing their jobs(assigned targets).

How is a tank to know what exactly killed him and how he can better defend from it.

 

Good players learn from damage meters.

 

Bad players hide from them. Or pick the easiest/FOTM class they can and bag about their DPS.

 

As a side effect of having combat logs. Think of the early WoW days. If you got though the QQ about bugs and servers you would find threads on theory crafting and number crunching. Even patches up to before I quit it would always have people going on to figure out the changes. It brings together the community and helps get rid of those QQ threads. Which betters the game as a whole.

 

Sorry bud, I've always run at or near the top of the meters in every raid that I've done (except for as an enhance shaman in pre-nerf Sunwell in BC, but there were other benefits for the raid). I don't think meters are necessary.

 

 

How is a player to improve if he doesn't know that his DPS is lower than everyone else?

Since you're saying meters only help a good player anyway... A good player will have a pretty good idea of his where their DPS stands with the rest of the group. You didn't start raiding at level 1, and I would be pretty confident in assuming that you've run some flashpoints, probably with other guild members. It's pretty easy to see, where there are only 2 DPS in the flashpoint, who is doing more damage and how effective your combined damage is. That gives you a pretty good idea of where you rank.

 

Not to mention that you can test things for yourself by going to kill the same mobs and timing it or fighting each other where you know the exact health, defense, and resists. What do you think we did in WoW and other games before they added test dummies? WE tested things on our own.

 

 

How is a player to decide what stat is better if they can't find how effective each stat is?

You don't need combat logs AT ALL to determine the effectiveness of various stats, you only need a working knowledge of the game mechanics and the ability to model it. You know all that Elitist Jerk material that tells the majority what stats to build? Yeah, that has absolutely nothing to do with combat meters whatsoever. They're modeling the game mechanics, which aren't difficult to figure out by observation. You do the same thing here as you would in WoW. Not to mention, it's very easy to get a rough idea of how much each stat is going to affect you just by looking at your talent trees.

 

 

How is a guild to find their weak link that need improving that is holding them back?

The weakest members can generally be identified by playstyle rather than numbers. I led raids in BC, I know how it works. You watch the overall fight, and see who is doing what. People that stand in stuff too long, people that move too much (and thus not DPSing), etc.

 

Most of the DPS lost in an actual raid encounter is from people not making effective use of time to DPS by moving around the room too much or reacting to things too slowly. You don't get that information from a damage meter. Ability rotation has a much smaller impact on whether or not the boss will die than those things. Damage meters also don't know who has been assigned to which tasks. Raid leaders who only rely on the numbers in a damage meter as handicapped, plain and simple.

 

 

How is a guild to know if their healers are doing their jobs(assigned targets).

Are those targets dying? Are other healers having to cover them to keep them alive? Healing meters are even worse than damage meters when it comes to conveying actual information. This is ridiculous.

 

 

How is a tank to know what exactly killed him and how he can better defend from it.

This is the only actual valid point, and is partly why they're adding in the personal meters. If it's not something obvious like a giant laser beam or meteor from space, then the tank can easily look in their own logs after this is implemented and see.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Tewnam

[DurbanX]

I vote no. The logs BW are suggesting are sufficient.

[RealAeiouy]

The real butthurt comes when we have meters. I enjoy insulting baddies and then kicking them

 

I enjoy reading the baddies act like having dumbed down meters makes them better.

[genesiser]

you know i would respect the elite types more if they would just own up to it.

 

stop pretending like you care about who you group with, making friends, or anything else and just admit the bottom line to you is killing the boss and getting your loot.

 

 

 

the whole thing of acting like you care about other people, want to help them and its just for your own information... then admitting you would kick players who perform below your standards.... it just comes off as a very shady double standard and i cant fathom that there are many intelligent people who dont notice it.

 

You could easily flip that around say, "I don't know why the terrible players that don't want others to see their numbers just don't own up to it. Not letting others see your numbers allows you to play bad and be a waste of space in a group and others won't know. If you are bad at playing your class and you don't want others to see how you perform, just own up to it."

[Loendar]

If battles are being won I agree, but it becomes other players' business if you are constantly causing wipes or doing too little DPS so enrage timers are going off.

 

If you are dying to enrage timers then you know your DPS is low. With that information you can communicate with your team and see what adjustments you can make (just like the good old days).

 

In the new system w/ the personal combat logs you can also ask to see them for your comrades to make future adjustments. You are getting everything you need in this implementation - just not real-time.

[Sbolla]

Can't vote , the link says i already did when i didn't really...

 

Anyway i say YES to everything will let me see my dps and the OTHER group dps/healing/threat everything i should be able to see to be able to do competitive pve or playing in general.

 

I love to be competitive and a system wich measure that in comparison to others is needed.

 

Until there won't be a Recount style funtion in this game there won't be any competitive content wich doesnt require competitive raid leading just to understand who is competitive enough for that content. Sorry for the intentional repetition of the word: COMPETITIVE.

 

 

Playing a dps class after 7 years of doing that with my mage without dps meter is utterly sad an not FUN. I really can't seem to have fun without it anymore as dps... and fun to me is all i care! (doing silly flashpoints who doesn't require any skill whatsoever its fun only the first two times maybe)

Edited March 7, 2012 by Sbolla

[terminova]

see the blind elitism in its fullest.

 

he didnt even bother to look at my fake dps meter spam.

 

slot 3 and 4 are obviously the tank and healer, derp.

 

thanks for playing!

 

You know, people are pretty good at noticing when people are AFK in 4-5 player groups that are, basically, standing next to each other. Chances are that when someone goes AFK for an extended period of time without prior notice they are going to be removed, especially if it's a PuG.

 

Ergo, your example is without merit.

[RealAeiouy]

I was being sarcastic.

 

I see some people insisting they don't want logs, then following with how they'd rather think for themselves than let the game do it. Generally the word 'think' implies you have some information or data to think about. What sort of verifiable data are you receiving from the game right now, that giving you more would have a negative impact on your play?

 

Or maybe none of you know what the hell you're even arguing against.

 

Lol what?

[TKMaster]

Not really. If it's an optional function, then they can complain you won't turn it on and let them see your numbers. Anyone in a video game or online who you don't know that is demanding you provide them with personal information like your email address by emailing them something just to do a pug run would look like a complete and utter maniac. Seriously..."turn on the function" sounds reasonable and lets them claim they're not asking for much...while "send me an email or I won't pug with you" sounds quite unreasonable...creepy even...and would get laughed at.

 

You must be new to MMO's.

[Loendar]

Pugs are a nightmare as is anyway, I dont see how weeding out the lazy ****s who just facemash the keyboard is a bad thing? and the thing is, the majority of the *** whole min/max peeps will be grouping only with the min/max peeps they know or their guildies. So they are of little concern

 

I agree that PUG's are a nightmare no matter how you approach it and I don't do them. That doesn't mean that I want to add an element that will make them even worse.

 

As for the min/max people - they can use the system being implemented to accomplish what they want.

[Journeyer]

I love what they're doing. There are a lot of valid requests for combat logs where players are looking to improve their gameplay, or to help others, and this future implementation provides complete, in-depth stats for analysis.

 

The method does not provide real-time feedback in the game, nor does it tell others what your numbers are; it's up to you to share honestly if you want assistance.

 

To that end, I feel as though Bioware is preserving the game they intended to create, though I understand it is not the solution some are looking for. Every time I see a feedback post commenting on how this won't help players who are trying to tell others what they are doing wrong, I get a guilty feeling of glee. Bioware does not want this to turn into a game of self-professed experts telling others how to play the game; they want to keep it creative and thought-provoking.

 

This addition allows players to use in-depth analytics to improve their own gameplay, as well as the ability to seek assistance if desired. It also gates the reliance on simple mechanics like damage meters, which stifle the creative options, and makes it extremely hard for players to impose their play-styles on others. (And I've certainly heard plenty of mis-informed advice in-game from folks who "know what they're doing")

 

Thumbs up from me.

[TKMaster]

I put down ppl on the internet because im good at playing a video game, that makes me cool.

 

Really.

[iain_b]

You got personal logs so that you can see how you are doing? What more do you need?

 

That doesn't tell me, as a raid leader, if one of my DPS is not doing their job.

 

Hitting enrage timers over and over because your DPS is not doing their job is irritating. But how am I supposed to help one of my raiders if I don't know what they are doing wrong?

[RealAeiouy]

WoW content and classes are designed with addon use in mind, so it's somewhere between nonsense and uselessly hypothetical to talk about playing it without addons. There is no "type of player" that uses addons in WoW, not anymore than there's a "type of player" that builds worker units in RTS, or uses companions while soloing in SWTOR.

 

Also people need to stop conflating "using damage meters to evaluate performance" with "relying on addons to play your character". These are completely different things, and the conflation of them speaks of dishonesty, or fear. People are afraid of their performance being evaluated, so they change the subject. If you have a good reason to be afraid of your performance being evaluated (maybe there is one), say it, don't change the subject.

 

 

 

Personal out of game logs is all you need to evaluate your performance.

 

Meters are crutches to play the game. There is no disconnect there. Nobody needs a damage meter to evaluate their performance.

[Tygranir]

What they are implementing is perfect. Sure, guilds are going to have to work a little harder to consolidate data, but if it keeps people showing their epeens to a minimum, I'm totally cool with it.

[Terebor]

A clear yes

 

no tool kill MMO's...players do.

[MasterKayote]

lol

 

Stupid site says I have already voted ... (I havent) but either way the results so far make me happy.

 

Hell no to traditional meters. They are NOT needed! We're doing fine without them now. And the current plan they have for them in 1.2 is a nice middle ground where players can parse their own data to improve themselves, test out specs, etc ... guilds can set up their own group meters WHEN A FIGHT ISNT GOING WELL ... and elitist control freak jerks can suk it during pugs.

 

Win-win.

 

While I wouldve preferred there be an in-game way of doing it, with all the same restrictions of the currently planned one ... this is good enough. Maybe itll improve later, so long as it never becomes another Recount, im happy. Good to know there is a much bigger population that agree's. Hope Bioware sees this.

[Tygranir]

That doesn't tell me, as a raid leader, if one of my DPS is not doing their job.

 

Hitting enrage timers over and over because your DPS is not doing their job is irritating. But how am I supposed to help one of my raiders if I don't know what they are doing wrong?

 

Review everyone's logs?

[Terebor]

What they are implementing is perfect. Sure, guilds are going to have to work a little harder to consolidate data, but if it keeps people showing their epeens to a minimum, I'm totally cool with it.

 

How hard is it to ignore epeen kiddies? not hard at all...just do it.

[Vydor_HC]

Bioware does not want this to turn into a game of self-professed experts telling others how to play the game; they want to keep it creative and thought-provoking.

 

That was what I took from the guild summit forums. They really want their UI and information they provide via the encounter output to be the keys to how players beat the content. I hope they stick with that concept.

[TheSwamper]

No competition , no discrimination.

I like the way it is.

 

^This. Pure wisdom.

[Tygranir]

How hard is it to ignore epeen kiddies? not hard at all...just do it.

 

Better to keep their epeens in their pants imo.

 

Seriously, this system still requires less work than indepth dkp systems. Guild Leaders of Raiding guilds are used to this kind of work, and doing it this way, imo, is actually a great way to keep track of numbers.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Tygranir