Metrics, Serious Raiding, SWTOR Has None

[TheVoidStalker]

And the funny thing is you dont even realize that. All the hardcore raiders gonna quit this game, because bioware is shoving all the easy content up everybodies asses.

 

Hardcore raiders don't pay the bills in any game.

[Kolcro]

I agree that DPS & heal charts are nice to see where you can improve. I can think of many players we had in the past that we were able to help improve with a look at their numbers. I also enjoy min-maxing as hitting the hardest I possibly can is fun for me.

 

However,

 

DBM was annoying, I hated that program. I agree with the posters who would rather just play the game and learn. The constant alerts were like an annying roomate spouting spoilers on the ins and outs of the fight.

[lotj]

What it shouldn't take is scientific analysis of the mob, it's mechanics, YOUR mechanics, etc. etc. It shouldn't take hours to set up. It shouldn't take hours to fight. You shouldn't need something that augments your ability to "read" what the mob is doing to survive fighitng it.

 

The "scientific analysis" is going to happen regardless.

 

When people ask for dps, healing and thread meters, they're asking for more insight into the game's fundamental mechanics so they can better understand what's happening (or happened) in the fight.

 

Did the boss look away because of an aggro drop? A random aggro ability? Or did a dps just get an early crit string and pull focus from the tank? Right now a significant number of tanks believe threat in this game is completely whacked, but we have no way of knowing for sure. Instead we just hit taunt whenever the mob looks at another player, which works because all content requires 1-tank. If taunt becomes a core mechanic to a fight (ex: tank swaps), then this could cause a lot of problems.

 

You're trying new content, but keep hitting the enrage timer on the boss. That means the group needs more dps, but from who? Everyone has their own numbers, but no reference point to know whether it's "good" or "bad." Instead the group just kicks out the lesser geared player (or goes out to Belsavis to figure out dps against big mobs) because that's all they have to go on.

 

I play a tank. I always know what killed me -- I took more damage than I have life without getting healed. Knowing what killed me isn't going to change anything. I need to know the sequence of leading up to my death. Were the healers doing something else and neglecting me for 30+ seconds? Did I miss a cd against a hard hitting ability? Was I standing in the invisible fire too long? Did I happen to get crit a few seconds before a big, unavoidable hit? Did the boss enrage, or gain a buff that should have been dispelled? All fundamental questions the can be answered by a combat log (also ones we've had in-game), but turn this into a giant guessing game (with bugs!) because it lacks proper feedback.

 

People demonize these logs & meters because jerks use them poorly. Hate to break it to you, but jerks will be jerks whether you give them the tools or not. The solution is to not play with those people, instead of tying the hands of the other 95% of people playing the game.

 

It should be something fought simply for the enjoyment of fighting it, not as an obstacle to progress.

 

Some people enjoy challenges and obstacles. That's why games have difficulty settings.

[HellFlame]

The "scientific analysis" is going to happen regardless.

 

When people ask for dps, healing and thread meters, they're asking for more insight into the game's fundamental mechanics so they can better understand what's happening (or happened) in the fight.

 

Did the boss look away because of an aggro drop? A random aggro ability? Or did a dps just get an early crit string and pull focus from the tank? Right now a significant number of tanks believe threat in this game is completely whacked, but we have no way of knowing for sure. Instead we just hit taunt whenever the mob looks at another player, which works because all content requires 1-tank. If taunt becomes a core mechanic to a fight (ex: tank swaps), then this could cause a lot of problems.

 

You're trying new content, but keep hitting the enrage timer on the boss. That means the group needs more dps, but from who? Everyone has their own numbers, but no reference point to know whether it's "good" or "bad." Instead the group just kicks out the lesser geared player (or goes out to Belsavis to figure out dps against big mobs) because that's all they have to go on.

 

I play a tank. I always know what killed me -- I took more damage than I have life without getting healed. Knowing what killed me isn't going to change anything. I need to know the sequence of leading up to my death. Were the healers doing something else and neglecting me for 30+ seconds? Did I miss a cd against a hard hitting ability? Was I standing in the invisible fire too long? Did I happen to get crit a few seconds before a big, unavoidable hit? Did the boss enrage, or gain a buff that should have been dispelled? All fundamental questions the can be answered by a combat log (also ones we've had in-game), but turn this into a giant guessing game (with bugs!) because it lacks proper feedback.

 

People demonize these logs & meters because jerks use them poorly. Hate to break it to you, but jerks will be jerks whether you give them the tools or not. The solution is to not play with those people, instead of tying the hands of the other 95% of people playing the game.

 

 

 

Some people enjoy challenges and obstacles. That's why games have difficulty settings.

 

Exactly. You sir got it 100% correctly. I got like 15 days left on my subscription and im still thinking about not renewing, because bioware wants to make a game for the masses and screws the endgame fully.

 

Some advice bioware: I dont think anybody should enter nightmare mode and one shot every boss... nightmare mode kills should be an achievment ... not every half-decent group of players should be able to do that. Also nightmare mode should have its own loot (except 100% speeder drop chance on last boss which is a joke).

[Sirranter]

I think people don't realize something, the meters do not make you able to raid or not to raid, it allows you to see how you are performing in the raid and allows you to fix your rotations so you are not a hindrance to your raid.

 

The goal of the player should be to better themselves to better the group/guild, if it isn't, then you are playing the wrong genre of game. I mean even in ME3 when you complete a multiplayer match you can see how you did and how your group did.

 

The main issue i find is, if BW doesn't want to put in the effort to give us these tools, there are plenty of individuals who are willing to do the work to give us these tools, so let them. Organization is part of the raiding process, and we want these tools(as raiders) to be better organized. So what is the issue?

[HinjuMaspo]

You know guys all who are against meters are basically ruining the game =D

 

And the funny thing is you dont even realize that. All the hardcore raiders gonna quit this game, because bioware is shoving all the easy content up everybodies asses.

 

Seriously, if you suck ... well.. you do suck, meters wont change that (or maybe you get better ****)... You got meters in huttball.. i think people dont even realize that.

 

You fear that you might cant get all bosses on NiM? Its good so because it SHOULD be NIGHTMARE not EASY... every singleplayer boss is harder than those.. my last repair costs for EV & KP were like 2k (no wipe and one shot every boss).. BORING.

 

Especially Combat Log... Oh i got 1-hitted by 44k ... hmmm where did that came from? And the guessing starts...

Some of you might say "oh then serach for it in the forum or use some guide"... if your one of the first to actually do that fight i dont think theres gonna be a lot of stuff around.

 

Please let them complete the easy content bioware... make them feel good.. so sad. Make a game for the masses but then dont complain when we move on to a game which actually cares about endgame.

 

Its laughable, your response. You want something to be what it is not going to be cause you left a game that blows, probably WoW, and because you cant have your way your saying people will quit. People will quite anyway, not everyone will love this game...like not everyone loves every game and thats a given. We are not ruining the game just giving anoter perspective. I don't care if i'm a jerk, your just plain an ***.

[DamenX]

i totally agree op but one thing i noticed is dont even bother in these forums. The impression that i get from people on these forums just shows how many actual raiders have actually already left this game just from the first impression they got from the buggy faceroll content the first tier was. ALOT of poeple saw this stuff coming with the lack of end game, combat log, ui, and just unsubbed and went back to the games they were already playing until swtor gets there act together or the next big mmo comes along. U can tell in the lost of subs swtor has had since release. The poeple on these forums should make a horror movie "Revenge of the bads u kicked in wow".

But ya i've pretty much lost hope of swtor ever having any kind of fun competitve raiding and just lvl'n some alts and enjoying single player mode until mop and gw2 comes out. Panda's or not atleast wow gives actual raiders some content and allow us a combat log and a reount to have some fun with.

[HellFlame]

Its laughable, your response. You want something to be what it is not going to be cause you left a game that blows, probably WoW, and because you cant have your way your saying people will quit. People will quite anyway, not everyone will love this game...like not everyone loves every game and thats a given. We are not ruining the game just giving anoter perspective. I don't care if i'm a jerk, your just plain an ***.

 

Yeah. SWTOR is nothing more or less than a singleplayer game. Thats your perspective? <3 fanboys of this game. Oh btw your totally wrong and mistaken about me...

 

Either you got delusions or something else is wrong with you. You ever read the forums? There are at least ten-thousand posts about how disappointed people are and they gonna quit.

 

At least i know what this game should have and ur perspective is wrong. You know what people gonna say or already saying about swtor... its propably the WORST endgame content ever made and thats no joke. If i wanna have a good story i could play singleplayer too.

 

People demanding meters & combat log for a good reason. Playing in the dark not knowing how well they are doing and not to know what actually led to their death is well sad.

 

My server had like 170 people during peak times when the game started now its just around 70. Thats a difference of 100 people... Like half of the people of our guild stopped playing, because its too boring..

 

If you find the state of the game is fine then i got a question for you: HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED A MMO?

[K_Schrimer]

I'm on the fence on this issue.

 

My MMO Raid experience:

 

EQ1

DAoC

EQ2

WoW

 

WoW had the best mechanics out of all of them at the time i played it (WotLK timeframe).

 

But what I noticed after Cat was that raid encounters were being balanced and tuned around addons which in essence made them mandatory to use.

 

That's an odd concept that things need to be tuned for 3rd party software users.

 

_________________________________________________________________________

On the other hand I completely understand why hardcore players want a measuring stick better than just win/loss.

 

We get a report at the end of each warzone and much smack is talked. Not only that, but I have gotten tells on spec and rotation after warzones. I happily answer the questions and the entire faction becomes stronger for it. Why can't we have a feature like that for PvE too?

Edited March 8, 2012 by K_Schrimer

[zargulis]

I have some responses to a few arguments posted.

 

1. Warzone meters and Ventrilo are okay, but meters in a raid are not. Implementing meters will make them required for content and start a raid cycle of gearing that leads to a path of failure.

 

This is complete garbage. On one hand you argue that raid meters will ruin the boss encounter tuning and you dislike being required to install third party software to raid, but on the other, using Warzone meters and Ventrilo which is the absolute number one REQUIRED priority for any raid or premade ever is fine? You can't have it both ways.

 

In addition, that raid gearing cycle you're so afraid of? It's ALREADY HERE! Items from normal flashpoints are outclassed by items from hard mode flashpoints. Items from hard mode operations are superior to those from normal operations. Champion gear is more expensive to acquire than Centurion gear. To claim that implementing raid meters will trigger a gear grind meltdown is absurd.

 

 

2. Meters turn the game into a dehumanized number-crunch and take away the overall experience of just playing the game.

 

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but this game has numbers everywhere. Health, resources, damage, healing, credits, range, valor, experience, statistics, armor - they are on your screen all the time. Damage numbers appear over the enemy and your character. Healing numbers appear over your character and the character you are healing. All a meter does is accumulate a total for each player! A simple addition of all the numbers you already see. TOR already does this in Warzones, but I don't see anyone arguing that Warzone meters "dehumanize" the experience.

 

 

3. BioWare plans to implement offline combat logs in the future, so why are you guys whining? You got what you want.

 

Not really. What we get is a long text file full of numbers which is meaningless without a parser and meaningless out of the context of the raid. "Wow, I did X amount of damage! It's too bad that I don't have any data to compare it to." It's ridiculous, particularly with the Warzone damage meters already implemented.

 

 

4.

What you are really saying is that we must have winners and loosers. What you are advocating for is a game of haves and have nots. When something like this occurs, guilds build a '**** you' mentality (which has already begun --due impart to imported WoW guilds). This begins a cycle, that currently holds sway in WoW (causing them to make everything so easy to abate the fears of the crappiest of players). This game is supposed to be fun, if you want this to be hardcore then play Halo or Gears or better yet make a guild dedicated too your pursuits (dont force this on everyone).

 

Yes, there are winners and losers. When you play a Huttball match, does it always say 'Victory!' at the end? No, because you LOST. Winning and losing are a part of any game. There are going to be good players and bad players. It's the same way in sports. The better players will be on the first string and the better teams will win more games. You can't make everyone a winner, it's impossible.

 

As for your belief that we want a game of haves and have nots, that's complete garbage. Do you really want everything the game has to offer handed to you in the mail? Enemies that are so weak that any player can kill them under any circumstance? Achievements for running 10 meters in a straight line or for a character's first jump? Because that is what you are arguing for - a game where everybody has everything.

 

You also tell us to make guilds for players like us, and we shouldn't force it on everyone. Really? Could you express the obvious any more clearly? We aren't forcing you to do anything. How could we? If you don't want to raid then don't, and don't complain we are "forcing" an OPTION for challenging content and then tell us how we should play the game. You *********** hypocrite.

 

 

The bottom line.

 

Ultimately, we only want two things:

 

a) Players to be accountable for their performance.

b) Progressively more challenging content with suitable rewards - such as achievements, speeders, vanity pets/clothes, etc.

 

The rewards don't even have to be gear. Contrary to popular belief, WoW raiding wasn't just about the gear grind. A lot of players grouped up just to do raid achievements, me included. We enjoyed the challenge.

 

BioWare doesn't have to give us meters. I don't feel raid meters is asking for much, or as catastrophic as many of you feel, and we can do without. However, without content that is challenging, and without goals to accomplish and achievements to aspire to, the appeal of logging in disappears.

[anstalt]

Such a garbled OP and horrendous thread, reading through it makes me sad for humanity. Both the hardcores and the non-hardcores seem to be acting poorly, its a shame.

 

 

 

This whole thread just boils down to two things:

 

1) current endgame is too easy

 

2) we have no metrics

 

 

Current endgame being too easy is a matter of perspective. Hardcore raiders will think its too easy, semi-hc's like myself think its just right, casuals probably think its hard. What we do know as a fact is that hardcore raiding guilds have already completed everything.

 

 

As to the metrics thing, arguements in this thread are all over the place. Some people simply want the tools to be able to analyse what went wrong. We are getting that in 1.2 but honestly, we have pretty much everything we need already. There are enough visual cues in game for you to work out what has happened. Other people want threat meters and dps meters to make the game easier. To them I say: copout. You can't call yourself hardcore whilst asking for things to be easier.

 

 

Finally, the arguement that without dps meters, threat meters, uber combat log, hardcore raids etc that a large percentage will leave TOR, I have to call you out on that. Leaving aside WoW as it is the exception, not the rule, every single MMO that has aimed to please the hardcore crowd has been a relative failure, whilst more casual mmo's have enjoyed more success with greater longevity. There will never be enough content for the hardcores, its just not possible. However, by making really hardcore content, you are basically putting up a barrier for the rest of the community that says "You will never be the best and you'll never see this content". THAT drives people away too. I love raiding, I love a challenge, but I'm not hardcore. If there ever comes a point where I come up against a boss which is so hard that only 0.1% of the community will ever complete it, thats when I'll quit. I'd rather BW churn out tons and tons of easy content that lots of us will enjoy rather than some hardcore raids that only a few will enjoy. If they can do both, great, but in reality we know that wont happen.

[navarh]

There are enough visual cues in game for you to work out what has happened.

yep, you right there is no need for combatlog

 

visual cues in game so simple, even small kid can figure out what happened

downside: sacrificed any level of possible challenge above "easy"

Edited March 8, 2012 by navarh

[Forduc]

Well, combat logs would be nice. Automatically saved text version is even better for most cases.

 

Damaga meters are good in intelligent hands. However, when 1337 kiddies get their hands on them it ain't pretty. Sure 1337 kiddies are annoying anyway, but some will become much much more obnoxious with dps meters. And theorycraft+combat logs is about as good as dps meters for figuring out stuff.

[Raeln]

Yea we wont notice.

 

You have 30 seconds to go through 2000 lines of combat log to make sensible changes. And then upload it. Make sure it matches when the AOE hits everyone else and you have none or when I pull out my calculator to check your DPS. Do you think we blindly accept everything and don't notice anomalies? Anomalies are what we are looking for.

 

Good luck with that.

 

Creating a script that automatically adds 10% to every damaging attack in the log is not hard. For a file this small, it'd only take about 5 seconds to chew through it and resave the file.

[Innui]

Without the "Bads and casuals" SWTOR would be F2P before some people fail to graduate.

[Raeln]

Yeah, that was pretty telling, but confirms what many have thought....those guys really don't play the game. They still call their operations, raids.

 

Uh... while ready checks are convenient, they are not by any means necessary when the entire raid is using voice chat - especially in 8 man content.

[Raeln]

World of Warcraft has shown with Cataclysm that catering to casuals, with the dungeon finder, will get you a loss of 10% of your playerbase over the course of an expansion cycle.

 

WoW started losing those subscribers before they began nerfing Cataclysm content. It seems to me that they started their avalanche of lost subs from raising their barrier of entry, not lowering it.

 

Have you heard their recent changes to Scroll of Resurrection?

 

Make an instant level 80 character of any class? Sounds casual friendly to me, brah.

 

Here you say that NFL/NBA are hero worship but that, in your perspective which of course has to be broad and all inclusive MMOs dont have heros or worshippers

 

I've played MMOs since 2001. I have been a hardcore progression raider (#3 guild on Xev server before I retired EQ1). Did some of the same for WoW. Played WoW for 7 years.

 

I can count on one hand how many people I heard refer to the "world first" guilds with a positive tone of respect. Most comments made about them involved "no life", "wish we could get paid to play games too" and other negative remarks like that.

 

There is very little "hero worship" in MMOs for "sponsored" guilds - at least that I've personally witnessed.

 

Thanks for assuming I do not socialize in games. I know all of the above and participate in all of he above. Again you showcase your bigotry towards competitive players.

 

I am truly sorry I am a better player than you, that I like to invest my time into being the best I can be and that you discount that because you think socializing is more important than being successful.

 

This attitude is exactly why I do not want real time meters in my TOR.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Raeln

[Raeln]

I keep seeing people say things like this, and I'm genuinely curious. How would you solve this?

 

It's a pretty simple scenario: A boss has an enrage timer and let's say your group is consistently wiping around 10%. You've been playing with these people for a while and are pretty confident none of them are terrible, also all of the DPS claim they're doing their best.

 

Now, you as the raid leader, how do you solve this? Keep in mind you have no metrics of any kind to evaluate the performance of your group members. So really, how do you deal with it?

 

If you are hitting enrage at 10%, sounds like your entire DPS crew is a bit undergeared.

[Raeln]

Exactly. You sir got it 100% correctly. I got like 15 days left on my subscription and im still thinking about not renewing, because bioware wants to make a game for the masses and screws the endgame fully.

 

"... because bioware wants to make a game for the masses..."

 

Hrmmmmmmm...

[oredith]

if we give every kid a participation trophy, then none of them will be losers.

 

that's basically the stance with combat log (and by association, threat meter), because they don't want you to have the ability to single someone out as a failboat.

 

raise your hand if you think the devs were picked last in dodgeball.

[Raeln]

if we give every kid a participation trophy, then none of them will be losers.

 

that's basically the stance with combat log (and by association, threat meter), because they don't want you to have the ability to single someone out as a failboat.

 

raise your hand if you think the devs were picked last in dodgeball.

 

Interesting choice there.. dodgeball.

 

I think we all know that the bigger (more athletic) kids were picked first in dodgeball due to their appearance. While there is a good chance they would certainly throw the ball harder than the smaller guys - there is no obvious way to know they are more accurate with their throw. After all, a hard throw that misses the target is just as useless as a soft throw that misses the target.

 

I find it hilarious to think how a damage meter might help the situation here. Can you imagine the dodge ball team leader standing off to the side, engrossed with watching a damage meter app on his iPhone only to get waylaid by a ball thrown from the other team?

 

I'd call that tunnel vision and something that I seen quite often with real time meters during boss encounters.

[CyclopicWarrior]

Nerd rage is crazy around here. World class guilds, world firsts...bah! It's a game, have fun and play it, or not. Think it should be something different? Go make your own game. No one is forcing any of us to pay every month to play this game, the day I stop liking this game is the day I stop paying to play it.

[oredith]

Interesting choice there.. dodgeball.

 

I think we all know that the bigger (more athletic) kids were picked first in dodgeball due to their appearance. While there is a good chance they would certainly throw the ball harder than the smaller guys - there is no obvious way to know they are more accurate with their throw. After all, a hard throw that misses the target is just as useless as a soft throw that misses the target.

your scenario is true, if this is the first time the kids have played dodgeball together, and the choices were based purely on appearances.

 

i was referring to scenarios where the degree of fail has been exhibited, and are picked last for a reason.

 

same thing with damage/threat meter.

 

if the team has never played together before, a threa/damage meter would no sooner disadvantage one person from another, it is only AFTER a baseline has been established, and that you are a failure compared to others, that distinctions are made.

 

I find it hilarious to think how a damage meter might help the situation here. Can you imagine the dodge ball team leader standing off to the side, engrossed with watching a damage meter app on his iPhone only to get waylaid by a ball thrown from the other team?

 

I'd call that tunnel vision and something that I seen quite often with real time meters during boss encounters.

there has been, and always will be 2 schools of uses for meters.

 

1. epeen measuring tool, most commonly employed by DPS

2. analysis tool, to figure out what is not working

 

i'll let you guess which one i'm interested in.

Edited March 8, 2012 by oredith

[Kaydul]

a "hardcore raider" is nothing more than a figment of one's imagination. The only reason these so called 'hardcore raiders' hate SWTOR is because it doesn't require 80 hours a week to raid. Casual people can raid in SWTOR and gear up in a reasonable amount of time. This makes these 'hardcore raiders' mad because now their efforts are not as special as everyone elses. There is really a simple solution, either change your false belief of what raiding is to what it really is or get your epeen from some other game.

 

Myth: hardcore raiders raid 80 hours a week

 

People like this make me laugh. They think that games shouldn't be hard, they should just be giant reward pinatas. well when difficulty is stripped from a game, and everyone has the same loot as you, whats rewarding about that? look everyone has rakata/Battle master, at what point does this make you feel like you earned the gear? Part of what makes top loot cool is not many people having it!

 

People who are crying out for more of a challenge like to show off epeen bro, guess what, you do too, everyone does. everyone wants to show their coolest mount, coolest gear, coolest anything, why? because it makes you special.

 

hardcore raiders want to feel special, but the difference is they want to *********** work for it. baddies like you who want top end gear with little to no effort are killing MMOs these days. I'm tired of the casual player base telling people who want their damn money's worth from this game's top tier of raiding to ****. I'm not telling you to quit the game because you don't want to play at my level, so why do you tell me to quit when I don't want to play at your level...

 

Call me crazy, but I come from a time when playing and winning were not synonymous...Just because you play the game to 50, doesn't mean BW owes you loot. Put in some effort and work for it FFS. That's what playing an MMO is all about!

[va_wanderer]

Call me crazy, but I come from a time when playing and winning were not synonymous...Just because you play the game to 50, doesn't mean BW owes you loot. Put in some effort and work for it FFS. That's what playing an MMO is all about!

 

I come from a time when playing and winning weren't either. The difference is that the best players didn't keep whining about not having their own special super-duper loots, mobs, and content.

 

Those came later, starting with EQ, developing into the full blown OCD that was WoW, and now we've got the same people here.

 

And the amusing thing is, without you the game is a better place. Hardcore raiders are a distraction to the majority of the playerbase. A game designed to be a journey, and all you're concerned about is the ending- and the heck with making 1-49 any better being a priority. They need to put more ubermobs scattered around all the worlds, the better to sate the "gotta beat em all" mentality here.