So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

[L-RANDLE]

Uh...no. That's not what I'm always assuming. In fact I'm specifically indicating otherwise sometimes through the inequalities.

 

Did you intentionally misinterpret what I was saying or are you actually unable to comprehend it?

 

Are you at a stat disadvantage? If so, can you beat a BM/CHAMP/CENT geared player?

 

Oh, I comprehend you very well... "There is facerolling happening because of gear stats and I have a problem with it..." Something like that.... Since there are at least SO many factors involved in a PvP match, how can you say one factor (stat advantage) is SO overwhelming that it affects you and the match?

 

How many times does stat advantage really matter in PvP match? 1 out of 10 confrontations?

 

PS: Why don't you enlighten us on why you don't have the gear? All the arguments stem back to "farming Ilum", baddies in BM gear because they have no life, etc, etc. Are you in this camp?

[Antipathize]

You are generalizing just as much as I am.... Your comparision assumes skill levels are the same...

 

Sometimes:

 

All Gear+Little Skill < No(Low level) Gear + Leet Skill

 

 

No one complaining is really willing to admit that that stat advantage could possibly have nothing to do with it....

 

This is quite simply false. In the 10-49 bracket I was consistently in the top of the scoreboards. Dinging 50, I dueled a sin tank which is the same exact class. Not only did he have double my health because of full champ gear, but I quite literally could not dent him. It was like I was 20 levels below.

 

Now that I have full cent, and some champ I do the same thing to fresh 50's.

 

Gear will 100% carry a player, no matter his skill. A good player will just mop up a little faster.

[MartyrLXXVII]

So which is it?

Assuming you are at a gear disadvantage, you beat down ANYONE (BM included) that is a spammer? So I guess that stat advantage don't mean spit?

 

Well you are the one assuming I mean based on anything but skill. It is possible for someone to do enough extra damage based on gear disparity that they can have zero skills and still beat a good player.

It's exteeme, but the obvious example would be a level 50 vs a lvl 10. Skill doesn't matter at all in that fight, lvl 50 is always gonna win.

 

The difference obviously isn't as bad when its just gear, but the principal is the same.

[EternalFinality]

Are you at a stat disadvantage? If so, can you beat a BM/CHAMP/CENT geared player?

 

Oh, I comprehend you very well... "There is facerolling happening because of gear stats and I have a problem with it..." Something like that.... Since there are at least SO many factors involved in a PvP match, how can you say one factor (stat advantage) is SO overwhelming that it affects you and the match?

 

How many times does stat advantage really matter in PvP match? 1 out of 10 confrontations?

 

PS: Why don't you enlighten us on why you don't have the gear? All the arguments stem back to "farming Ilum", baddies in BM gear because they have no life, etc, etc. Are you in this camp?

 

Did you miss the part where I said:

 

Skill is sometimes > gear, but sometimes not. Depends on the gear and skill gap on a case by case basis.

 

Don't go off on a rant when you fail to read.

[RealAeiouy]

I want to go back and address the fundamental flaw of this thread based on the title.

 

Hardcore pvp players like to pvp and care very little about gear. Gear is something you get as a side effect of fighting.

 

Hardcore pve players worry about gear progression. So I suggest the influx of pve players learn to adapt and enjoy pvp and not try to make it like pve

[MrSteebin]

How many times does stat advantage really matter in PvP match? 1 out of 10 confrontations?

 

10/10 for me. When I find a fresh 50 on my scoundrel I almost feel bad for him. It was the same on my sage also.

[Bovinity]

Hardcore pve players worry about gear progression.

 

Heck, even a lot of hardcore PvE players don't REALLY give a **** about gear. Yeah, at a certain point I had to get my Druid more gear in order to be effective in the next tier, blah blah. But I didn't really care about it. It just came when it came. Same when I was raiding in EQ. Just wasn't a big deal. Most of the best players around me didn't really worry about it either.

 

I'm not sure exactly when the majority of the MMO community turned into gear donkeys, but it's a sad trend if you ask me.

[EternalFinality]

10/10 for me. When I find a fresh 50 on my scoundrel I almost feel bad for him. It was the same on my sage also.

 

If I have 1000 or more max HP than the person I'm targeting it's almost guaranteed I'm going to beat them because of my gear.

Edited March 8, 2012 by EternalFinality

[L-RANDLE]

If I have 1000 or more max HP than the person I'm targeting it's almost guaranteed I'm going to beat them because of my gear.

 

And you are at a stat advantage all the time you get into a confrontation in PvP? So you are going up against the same player everytime, in every match?

 

If you were, yes, you would roll him 10/10, but how often does that happen in one match, let alone in a night, week, month of playing WZ? It's a minor thing that people feel the need to cry about ONLY because they think its not "fair" or "my time is more valuable than yours"

 

 

NEWS FLASH: You don't need top level gear to do well in PvP....

[L-RANDLE]

This is quite simply false. In the 10-49 bracket I was consistently in the top of the scoreboards. Dinging 50, I dueled a sin tank which is the same exact class. Not only did he have double my health because of full champ gear, but I quite literally could not dent him. It was like I was 20 levels below.

 

Now that I have full cent, and some champ I do the same thing to fresh 50's.

 

Gear will 100% carry a player, no matter his skill. A good player will just mop up a little faster.

 

GEAR WILL NOT CARRY A BAD PLAYER!!!!!! OTHERWISE I WOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO BEAT BM's WITH MY "SUBPAR" GEAR!!!!!! JESUS!!!!

 

And don't bring that weak 10-49 argument back either when your skill tree is not affected. That bracket is still weighed heavily on your level too...

[Bovinity]

It's a minor thing that people feel the need to cry about ONLY because they think its not "fair" or "my time is more valuable than yours"

 

Actually - speaking for myself - it's more the fact that I don't want a gear grind to be a substitute for a robust PvP system and honest competition.

 

I'd MUCH rather have a level playing field with good ratings systems, a leaderboard of some sorts, elements that provide recognition in some way, titles and other vanity things that are gained through excellent performance, things like that.

 

What I don't want to see is a system that covers up a complete lack of content with a giant skinner box that encourages you to just keep playing and pressing a lever over and over again in the hopes that if you just press the lever ONE more time you'll get an item that makes you better at PvP than the next guy.

[RealAeiouy]

I disagree. I could care less for vanity crap. I just want to improve my toon. If I hit my cap in power then I beat the game.

 

Thus why you are a pver and not a pvper. For a pvper the game begins when you cap your power

[JaddynnStarr]

Re (1) I've played them. I don't play them competitively as I determined that they suck, especially the console shooters. I play TF2 primarily these days, which has no meaningful persistent advancement, and in fact has the best implementation of "gear" and collection mechanics of any shooter.

 

Re (2), multiplayer PvP games that are fun will continue to be played. See every other multiplayer game that is not an MMO.

 

Re (3) I bet you have a terrible definition for "died."

 

Re (4) It was the ability to lose all your stuff in a game with PvP. Most PvP in Diablo often involved luring monsters to another character to get them killed so you could steal their stuff. You know, when you weren't using hacks to townkill people.

 

back to (1) then you understand that they still have a progression and a massive amount of players that play them.... thus making your original staement about it wrong.

 

(2) of course they will, the point wasnt that they would never be played, hell i still pop in COD 2 every once in a while to play it, cuz it was fun.

 

(3) my definition of dead is seeing a server with less then 5% (or reasonably close to) of its original stable population still playing... if your being utterly literal about it, then no it isnt dead, but its VASTLY obscure now....

 

(4) meh, diablo had alot of hackers in it that did the town killing so... i really dont classify that as a true pvp system... it was buggy as hell, had so many cheaters in it, hence why it, at least by my definition ^, is dead...

[Antipathize]

GEAR WILL NOT CARRY A BAD PLAYER!!!!!! OTHERWISE I WOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO BEAT BM's WITH MY "SUBPAR" GEAR!!!!!! JESUS!!!!

 

And don't bring that weak 10-49 argument back either when your skill tree is not affected. That bracket is still weighed heavily on your level too...

 

The difference between champ and bm isn't as horrible as a fresh 50 and a bm. Try wearing nothing but 40 pvp gear, or 50 pve gear and fight a battlemaster. Your argument is invalid because you are claiming stats don't make a difference. Which is clearly false.

 

The 10-49 bracket is a fair example, because until you hit 40, you are generally reliant on your own skills and capabilities. You still can take down a 40+, but it's a much harder struggle.

 

I just think you spent too much time grinding out the gear and don't want equality because that would have wasted your time. That's the only reason I can think of for someone to defend it as vehemently as you have.

[L-RANDLE]

Actually - speaking for myself - it's more the fact that I don't want a gear grind to be a substitute for a robust PvP system and honest competition.

 

I'd MUCH rather have a level playing field with good ratings systems, a leaderboard of some sorts, elements that provide recognition in some way, titles and other vanity things that are gained through excellent performance, things like that.

 

What I don't want to see is a system that covers up a complete lack of content with a giant skinner box that encourages you to just keep playing and pressing a lever over and over again in the hopes that if you just press the lever ONE more time you'll get an item that makes you better at PvP than the next guy.

 

 

And I wanted to do sythweaving and biochem when I started, so i could spend my credits else, but I'm not complaining.

I'm not saying I don't understand you... I am just saying it is dumb to complain about something you have 100% control over by these means:

 

 

1. Get the gear.

2. Stop playing.

[EternalFinality]

And you are at a stat advantage all the time you get into a confrontation in PvP? So you are going up against the same player everytime, in every match?

 

I fail to see what you are getting at. Sometimes I'm at a disadvantage. Often I am at an advantage. (Because I have good gear).

 

I have no idea whether I'm at a skill advantage or not.

 

NEWS FLASH: You don't need top level gear to do well in PvP....

 

Of course you do. Fresh 50 gear people are destroyed by average skill players in PvP gear no matter how good they are.

 

GEAR WILL NOT CARRY A BAD PLAYER!!!!!! OTHERWISE I WOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO BEAT BM's WITH MY "SUBPAR" GEAR!!!!!! JESUS!!!!

 

Are you implying that you beat all Battlemasters all the time? Really?

[JaddynnStarr]

Re (1) I've played them. I don't play them competitively as I determined that they suck, especially the console shooters. I play TF2 primarily these days, which has no meaningful persistent advancement, and in fact has the best implementation of "gear" and collection mechanics of any shooter.

 

Re (2), multiplayer PvP games that are fun will continue to be played. See every other multiplayer game that is not an MMO.

 

Re (3) I bet you have a terrible definition for "died."

 

Re (4) It was the ability to lose all your stuff in a game with PvP. Most PvP in Diablo often involved luring monsters to another character to get them killed so you could steal their stuff. You know, when you weren't using hacks to townkill people.

 

back to (1) then you understand that they still have a progression and a massive amount of players that play them.... thus making your original staement about it wrong.

 

(2) of course they will, the point wasnt that they would never be played, hell i still pop in COD 2 every once in a while to play it, cuz it was fun.

 

(3) my definition of dead is seeing a server with less then 5% (or reasonably close to) of its original stable population still playing... if your being utterly literal about it, then no it isnt dead, but its VASTLY obscure now....

 

(4) meh, diablo had alot of hackers in it that did the town killing so... i really dont classify that as a true pvp system... it was buggy as hell, had so many cheaters in it, hence why it, at least by my definition ^, is dead...

[Bovinity]

I am just saying it is dumb to complain about something you have 100% control over by these means:

 

 

1. Get the gear.

2. Stop playing.

 

So your solution to bringing about positive change to something is to...just keep doing it the same way or quit? I'm not sure how anything would change using your system.

 

In any case, guys like you keep missing the point. Most of us here have the gear. You seem to be under the impression that I'm sitting around in level 48 greens crying my eyes out because I saw someone with a battlemaster weapon. I've got quite a nice mix of Rakata and PvP gear right now that I'm perfectly content with, aside from a couple upgrades and mod swaps.

 

There's really nothing I'm wanting for, I'm actually quite happy with my gear, my class, and most elements of the PvP gameplay right now. I already did #1 on your list and then some.

 

But the system is woefully underdeveloped and has a somewhat significant barrier to entry for new players right now. It's getting a lot better, but there's still more that could be done to shift the PvP aspect of the game from a mindless timesink and gear farm to a real competitive stage.

[L-RANDLE]

The difference between champ and bm isn't as horrible as a fresh 50 and a bm. Try wearing nothing but 40 pvp gear, or 50 pve gear and fight a battlemaster. Your argument is invalid because you are claiming stats don't make a difference. Which is clearly false.

 

The 10-49 bracket is a fair example, because until you hit 40, you are generally reliant on your own skills and capabilities. You still can take down a 40+, but it's a much harder struggle.

 

I just think you spent too much time grinding out the gear and don't want equality because that would have wasted your time. That's the only reason I can think of for someone to defend it as vehemently as you have.

 

I still wear some 40 orange stuff and crafted stuff beacause quite frankly, all PvP gear is crap on a bunch of levels........ AND I DON'T own any BM pieces, you can refer to me as hardcore casual... No i didn't grind BM gear, I JUST bought my second champ piece...I 'm grinding just like everyone else, but at a slower pace than the hardcore. Regardless of these facts, I don't care that they have a stat advantage over me... When I take down someone with more HP I say "hum, baddie" when I lose I say "damn, I suck, or damn they got more time on there hands than I do... Oh well".....

 

See, I play to win, but its ok if I lose (regardless of the reasoning) because in the end its about the fun and the winning. Knowing the mechanics of the game, you have no excuse for complaining about actually have to play an RPG to get something out of it...

[Redmarx]

PVEers go for gear cap. More gear = more progression.

 

PVPers go for skill cap. More skill = more progression.

[RealAeiouy]

Because I payed for three months and I didn't know about these changes when I pre paid.. So I'm just waiting out my sub until then.

 

That doesn't make sense. You force yourself to do something you don't like because you spent $30?

[RealAeiouy]

Because this is a MMO? Maybe you are new to this kind of game , let me explain to you , on MMO , you get rewards for doing things , kill the mob drops items , see?Not that hard right?

 

This is NOT a FPS game mate , so yeah , we expect to get something when we do something ... otherwise i will always do what i do now , afk wzs , i mean lol , there is nothing to be gained? Then it is because it is not meant for me to do anything.

 

Perhaps you should stick to pve

[EternalFinality]

I still wear some 40 orange stuff and crafted stuff beacause quite frankly, all PvP gear is crap on a bunch of levels........

 

It all makes sense now - you are a BAD PLAYER.

 

And you claimed to beat Battlemasters, pshaahahhahaha

Edited March 8, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Laokoon]

Sure, post it and I would review your idea. Now make sure your idea gives progression to all. If I do activity x it would be the same if another player did activity x.

 

Remember its the illusion of progression we are looking for. I don't need to destroy anyone, skill and practice should allow me to do that anyway. Also take into account if the designers introduce class imbalances. How would compensate for that?

 

Okay, I will put lay out my plan for you below. Sorry for the length, but I feel it is all necessary to get my idea across.

 

TL;DNR version: I have an idea for a non-gear progression system that accomplishes the goals of the gear progression system stated previously in this thread.

 

First, let me list what I try to accomplish with it (what I think a good system should incorporate) and then we can see to what degree my idea accomplishes these various things.

 

I think a good PvP should include:

 

1) Progression

As you said, progression is important. It is the thing that drives many people. The carrot on the stick mentality. At the end of the day, if you feel you accomplished something, it feels good.

 

2) Long term thinking

This relates to Progression. The more progression available the better. Essentially, if you hit the end of the progression line (if you got to #1 in my SWG PvP example) there would be no more carrot for you, no bigger challenge. Without long term progression plans, things fall flat much quicker. In the current iteration, BM gear is the top notch. But when you get it, then what? How do you tell if your character has grown in skill after that? There needs to be more incentive. However, there is a cost involved with progression depending on how it is implemented. Which leads me to my next point.

 

3) Development cost

We have to be practical, BW will only implement that which will yield the highest return for the lowest dollar cost, that is how business is done. If they decided to keep with the current method of gear progression, there is a cost associated with adding new tiers of gear that deters them from adding many more tiers. This limits their ability to really engage player interest for the long term, as in point #2. It seems everyone agrees that it would be cool if there were two brackets in the current system, geared and un-geared so people can play the way they want. But the development cost of this would likely be prohibitive (maintaining two PvP systems), and we would still run into the problem of long term thinking with the gear system.

 

4) Challenge

As you said, challenge is where the entertainment value mostly resides. In PvE, if you are a level 50 person fighting level 1 mobs, there is no challenge, you will quickly get bored. Same is true for PvP, if you are an uber geared PvP player vs. a fresh ungeared PvP player, you might find a few minutes of enjoyment, but in the long run, lack of challenge will make you bored. But, in PvE, as you gain in level, the challenge actually increases. Level 1 mobs at level 1 were easier than level 50 mobs at level 50. The interest you expressed would indicate that progressive difficulty increase as you get better would be good.

 

5) Rewarding the Player

People like rewards. Yes, progression is a form of reward, but people like trophies as well. You have expressed your disinterest in trophies, but I am incorporating it anyway because there are people who do enjoy that stuff, and so long as it doesn't actually take away from any other part of the system, that is fine.

 

6) A competition of skill

I have not yet heard anyone here that is supporting gear progression state outright that they don't want a competition based on skill. It seems some people are implying it, and I have inferred it from many posts, but even if someone outright states "I don't want a competition of skill" it is safe to assume that the vast majority of people do, since that is how all competitive matches are held in the real world, and in most of the gaming world. People want to be "better" than opponents, not simply "better geared" than opponents.

 

With all that said, here is my idea. Please keep in mind that I am not aware of this having been implemented anywhere else before. It is a bit of a radical departure from the standard progression systems, so please don't dismiss it out of hand, give it some real critical thought before posting what about it you agree or disagree with.

 

First, we do away with gear impacting PvP. This means both PvE and PvP gear. PvP becomes a match up of skill, not gear. This levels the playing field to accomplish #6

 

Second, we implement stat tracking and leaderboards. The stat tracking will allow us to place people in the position on the leaderboards. It will also help determine how to match people up for WZs. The stat tracking will also let us take into account class imbalances. Let's be honest, Devs are not super great at balancing classes with one another, in any game. By using weighted stats, and different stats for different classes carrying different weights, we can compensate for class imbalances. This will partially help accomplish #1, partially help accomplish #5, and help in the rest of the plan I outline below.

 

Third, we implement trophies, vanity items (speeders, gear, ect), and titles for certain tiers on the leadrboards. Again, I know you said you don't care about this, but some people do, so this is to appease them. These awards would be tied to what tier you are ranked on the leaderboards. If you drop in rank, then you get lower grade vanity items. Basically, these are to show off your prowess while not in a match. So for example: If you are in the top tier, and you are wearing "Rank 1 Cool Armor" (which now will not impact the match) and you fall in the rankings, your armor will be replaced with "Rank 2 cool armor". This will let people know where your current position on the rankings is, so people can show off their prowess. This accomplishes #5.

 

Fourth, we tie a tiered difficulty system in with the stat tracking (not the leaderboards). This will take a bit of explaining to try to get my point across. Hopefully at some point in your life you have played a fighting game, like Tekken or Mortal Kombat, if so I think it will be easier to understand this system. In games like Tekken and Mortal Kombat, to take into account the fact that there are AMAZING players and rather poor players, there is an option in the options menu to give a handicap to a player. When my friends get together and play fighting games, the super amazing people typically choose to take a handicap in order to actually make it challenging for them.

 

In fighting games, the handicap is fairly simple, it is typically just the amount of health a person has, which can be raised or lowered. Some have increased or decreased the damage a person does, but this is effectively the same thing. This option is never an automatic thing, it must be chosen by the players. However, in the system I am suggesting, when a player plays a match to be ranked, a handicap will be placed on them based on their stats, to bring the challenge level for them in the match up to the point that their skill with the handicap is roughly equal to the opponents skill with the opponent's own handicap. Also, I would not simply have it be a straight change of health, it would be much more nuanced. It would account for health, damage, healing, alacrity, aim, stealth level, range of attacks, resistances, cool down time, and pretty much every stat that comes into play in a PvP match.

 

So imagine this: if you have a 1v1 match where two juggys of the same build go at it. One is skilled enough that he wipes the floor with the other juggy. To make that fight a challenge next time, the crazy awesome juggy needs a handicap to bring the challenge up to the level where he can actually enjoy it, rather than curb stomp the other juggy.

 

This system IS counter-intuitive, in that rather than a race to have the most advantage over everyone (I.E.- the best gear or the best boosted-skills) it is a race to see who can keep winning and beating others with the biggest handicap. The beauty of it is that so long as the programmers aren't lazy, a well built algorithm that accounts for your stats and how you fair against others can infinitely progress your character's handicap as opposed to the limited progression that is reasonable when making your character more powerful.

 

Further, rather than having two brackets (ranked and unranked), we have everyone play in the same bracket. The only difference is a toggle you set in the PvP settings. Behind the scenes, every person who plays PvP is ranked and stat-tracked. You toggle between using your handicap, and thus helping to progress your character further along the rankings and higher handicaps based on the people you fight against while using your handicap, or you choose to play without the handicap and your ranking changes very little and very slowly. So when you use the handicap, every time you have a match, everyone you are fighting is on equal footing essentially, because you have more skill and a higher handicap, while they are less skilled but don't have the handicap, keep the challenge alive. When you don't use the handicap, you are going to be more powerful than the people of lower ranking than you, but that is because of your skill. If you are able to beat them anyway while using a handicap, clearly your skill is even greater, and you continue to move up the rankings with higher handicaps. The carrot on the stick here is earning higher handicap levels and proving to yourself and others that you are so skilled that you are more powerful than they are, even with handicaps. This should help accomplish #2 and #4.

 

Again, to the best of my knowledge, this hasn't been implemented before, so excuse me if it has been tried already. But please carefully consider what you perceive to be the strengths and weakness of it, how it does or does not fulfill the goals of a good multiplayer system, before commenting on its effectiveness or feasibility.

 

And again, sorry for the length.

[RealAeiouy]

You clearly did not understand what i was talking about.

 

gear reset is normal , new tier = gear reset.

Sure every MMO does it, nothing new there.

 

Now , making the losers gear = to the winners?yeah ... dont rly make me want to win.

 

What im talking about is how i WILL afk in every freaking rated wz (or get 4 medals and then run around dont rly see much dif while im watching my movies) and in the end my gear will have the same stats yours will , is it because i will win? I dont think so

 

But you will never win so again why play? You afk in warzones so you can then just be bad at pvp?