So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

[Delavager]

The actually fact you don't have to anything but target someone and press a button. If you had to aim there is some skill there. In mmo's you target and press button and hope the rolls go in your favor.

 

Are you serious? Maybe because you apparently have no idea how to play the game do you have these thoughts.

 

The fact that you have 20+ buttons to choose from didn't enter your mind?

 

Also you do have to aim in this game with several abilities.

 

Aiming a virtual gun isn't the only skill that exists in this world, nor in video games.

 

Is that to say there's no skill involved in Fighting games like street fighter? How bout RTS games like starcraft?

[Jebi]

In mmo's you target and press button and hope the rolls go in your favor.

 

Not all MMO's are like that, hell, AC1 way back in 99 had dodgable projectiles (arrows, spells) and the like. And there's plenty of other examples. GW2 will have this on a smaller scale, and TERA is taking it to another level.

 

There's also a lot more to well designed MMO PVP than that. Different skills, abilities, classes... all which you can learn to counter. Different tactics, environmental advantages etc...

 

I'd say that being good at AC1 took a lot more skill than being good at quake (which was 99% reflexes). And yeah, I won plenty of Quake tournies.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Jebi

[SneiK]

I think PvP shouldn't have gear progression. I understand that PvE needs it, to have the feeling of achievement and progression. Before ranked ladder, the progression in PvP has been gear only, which I understand. After ranked matches, however, that ladder progression is all I need and yes, everybody should have the same chances of winning with GOOD PLAY, NOT GEAR.

 

I was kinda hoping that the solution of new gear but no valor requirement would satisfy all.

It's got the gear progression there for those who want it, but it's not so much tied to the amount of time you play (I was valor 69 in 2.19.2012 when I quit and I played waaay too much. The grind was ok, cuz it really was all you got, to have a sense of achievement)

 

But then I remembered that everybody wants to whine and never say anything positive. Good choice BW and the Guild Summit was awesome, my faith in the devs is restored. Keep up the good work (more warzones!!!).

 

EDIT: Oh and one thing. I am not at all annoyed of that 'omg now the n00bs get bm+ gear so easy now, I wasted so much time!!!'. I was there first. So, when we have t99 gear, should the fresh lvl50 have to grind all those 98 tiers before they can fight as equals with you? Grow up.

[Yutaa]

That's not true. PvP does get harder as time goes on. If you relate the opposing team to MoBs as you gain levels, the opposing team gains HP and does higher dmg, has more abilities etc.

 

When you hit 50 to when you are geared BM, the opponents are doing the same exact thing.

 

Basically you need to think of it as while you are progressing, so are your opponents in PvP both in skill and gear. Thus PvP does get progressively harder as time goes on.

 

The opposing team is not mobs. It players. So for a long period of time some other players have advantage over you. And its not skill based.

You need to spend 200+ hours to overcome this disadvantage. Only after 200+ hours you can start to participate in fair play.

 

Sound so fair....

This is what I call stupid game design. Looks like GW2 share this idea.

[GRINnBARRETT]

The greatest longevity of any game relies on the re-playability of it. I would guess that most players in this game play alts as opposed to the type that just plays a main. If the gear gap is significant then people will be relegated to playing their main only as leveling alts will be too much of a hassle.

 

BW wants us to play alts; they've said as much. Hence the (justifiable) decision to not have an appreciable gear gap at level cap.

[Delavager]

Honestly, I think you're thinking too complex.

 

duncan explained what I tried to convey in less words.

 

That's fine, what duncan and I are saying aren't mutually exclusive. I was just stating hte PvP does get harder.

 

My only point in this whole debate is that the game is an MMORPG and I expect that it tries to fit the PvP aspect to that genre.

 

My point isn't that it HAS to, it's that I would guess that BW WANTS to, because in-fact the game is an MMORPG.

 

If you take progression out of the PvP, it no longer is an RPG, and as such would be a different game all together from the "PvE" aspect of it. Thus, it hits the middle ground by offering gear progression, but not making it "elitist", which I think is a fine compromise.

[Laokoon]

I don't even know how to approach this anymore. It sounds like some people want to PvP but have no interest at all in competition, they just want to load up ProgressQuest and compare run-times to see who wins.

 

Have to agree. At this point I am saying the same arguments over and over. I have pointed out numerous times "Look, you just don't want a competition of skill, you want a gear competition. That's fine, but realize that you are in the minority." And none of them are willing to admit that.

[Yutaa]

The actually fact you don't have to anything but target someone and press a button. If you had to aim there is some skill there. In mmo's you target and press button and hope the rolls go in your favor.

 

In chess all you need to do is to just move figures. You may spend literally hours to make 50 moves.

 

Definitly chess is not skill based game.

 

Oh dear....

[Delavager]

The opposing team is not mobs. It players. So for a long period of time some other players have advantage over you. And its not skill based.

You need to spend 200+ hours to overcome this disadvantage. Only after 200+ hours you can start to participate in fair play.

 

Sound so fair....

This is what I call stupid game design. Looks like GW2 share this idea.

 

What? Learn to read please. This has nothing to do with what I was saying.

[FourTwent]

OP which would you rather have:

 

1) A PvP match that is determined solely by the skill of the players

2) A PvP match that is determined solely by the gear of the players

3) A PvP match that is determined in part by the gear and in part by the skill of the players

 

 

A lot of people want a skill only match up: who is better at this game, you or I? To take care of the need to feel you are accomplishing something (which is what getting gear effectively does) many games implement stat tracking and character ranking for multiplayer. This gives you an avenue to progress your character without influencing the straight skill match up of the players. If you have an issue with progression via stat tracking and player ranking, could you please elaborate on that?

 

It ALWAYS boils down to #1 though. If you're skilled at the game, dont cry that you have to gear up for a month or two. It's not like you're the only one that had to do it.

 

In the end we are all geared up with what we think is the best gear in slot. . .so it always boils down to #1.

 

Your 2 months spent gearing up isn't going to make or break anyone. Ask the pve group that does the same.

[MartyrLXXVII]

Have to agree. At this point I am saying the same arguments over and over. I have pointed out numerous times "Look, you just don't want a competition of skill, you want a gear competition. That's fine, but realize that you are in the minority." And none of them are willing to admit that.

 

Because they have to have that crutch and are too childish to try without it.

 

The people that demand gear are probably the same people that fail at fps', they can't win on an even footing.

Edited March 6, 2012 by MartyrLXXVII

[Bovinity]

In chess all you need to do is to just move figures. You may spend literally hours to make 50 moves.

 

Definitly chess is not skill based game.

 

Oh dear....

 

I sat at my chess board for 5 hours longer than you did, why didn't I get an extra queen to start with?!?! This game is stupid. Can't wait for Chess Wars 2.

[Laokoon]

It ALWAYS boils down to #1 though. If you're skilled at the game, dont cry that you have to gear up for a month or two. It's not like you're the only one that had to do it.

 

In the end we are all geared up with what we think is the best gear in slot. . .so it always boils down to #1.

 

Your 2 months spent gearing up isn't going to make or break anyone. Ask the pve group that does the same.

 

Totally agree. In the long run, all PvP has to boil down to skill eventually, because no matter how high you set the gear progression, eventually everyone you play against will have the same gear. If at that point you throw your hand up and say "this sucks, screw this game" then you know a skill based competition is not for you.

 

My point is that it will always boil down to a skill based competition in the end. Why are we artificially putting a gear based competition in there first, and letting it turn into skill based later? Why don't we just have a straight up skill based competition from the get go and be done with it?

[Crowleyz]

LoL well... bye.

 

Enjoy whatever unfair playing field you choose to play on next!

 

I suspect the "unfair" new playing field will be one where it actually matters if you've farmed gear or not. You know, one where months of work actually mean something. If you consider that unfair then well... Not really into the whole mmo-"RPG" thing are you.

[TetraCleric]

I suspect the "unfair" new playing field will be one where it actually matters if you've farmed gear or not. You know, one where months of work actually mean something. If you consider that unfair then well... Not really into the whole mmo-"RPG" thing are you.

 

Why are you PvPing then?

[Laokoon]

I suspect the "unfair" new playing field will be one where it actually matters if you've farmed gear or not. You know, one where months of work actually mean something. If you consider that unfair then well... Not really into the whole mmo-"RPG" thing are you.

 

You may have missed this part of the discussion, but it has already been agreed upon that the multiplayer of TOR is not an RPG.

[elorei]

That was a long thread. After reading it, a few things are obvious.

 

1) Gear based pvp is the norm now. This is sad, because it kind of sucks compared to the things we had before.

2) I am getting old, and the kids playing this are getting younger. When WoW is brought up as a pvp system to be compared to, it becomes quite obvious that the populace of these games has changed to a younger crowd. I bet I was pvping before some of these kids were out of diapers.

3) People have no idea what pvp could be like without gear progression, so they assume it is the only carrot to work for.

4) "real pvpers" as they call themselves are clueless as to what pvp could be, because they have too little experience of pvp at all.

 

I pity folks that never got to drive sallies into their enemies who chose to minor globe instead of invis. I feel sorry for those who dont know what corp por is. You kids missed it. PvP is gone, and has been for some time. The very fact that you think gear should be the reward is disheartening. I remember when it meant "your clan can actually go to fire giant's cave without being looted dry". Ahh, the good old days.

[burningcurse]

If valor rank doesn't matter, if rating isn't required to purchase gear this is what will happen to most of our ranked matches.

 

It will kill competition, cause most people are only after the ranked commendations.

 

Why bother trying to raise you rank/elo if at the end of the day everyone is rewarded with the same gear anyway.

 

Why strive harder to be the best team if it doesn't really matter ? I predict alot of teams not even trying to fight back because intentionally losing will end the match faster.

 

faster matches = faster ranked commendations.

 

the ranked PVP in this game will just be a grind for gear nothing more.

[drduncan]

That's fine, what duncan and I are saying aren't mutually exclusive. I was just stating hte PvP does get harder.

 

My only point in this whole debate is that the game is an MMORPG and I expect that it tries to fit the PvP aspect to that genre.

 

My point isn't that it HAS to, it's that I would guess that BW WANTS to, because in-fact the game is an MMORPG.

 

If you take progression out of the PvP, it no longer is an RPG, and as such would be a different game all together from the "PvE" aspect of it. Thus, it hits the middle ground by offering gear progression, but not making it "elitist", which I think is a fine compromise.

 

Our points are a perfect example of fundamentally mutually exclusive expectations on fair competitive play.

[Crowleyz]

Why are you PvPing then?

 

I am pvping because I find it enjoyable, but not so enjoyable that I'm willing to spend hours on it every week for no reward. The rewards for the effort you put in are probably the main reason why MMO's have succeeded in the first place. And they are effectively removing that aspect from the game, leaving PvP for the novelty value and inherrent feeling of amusement. Which won't last long when people get over the first jolt of "Oh I'm having ever so much fun" and start to realize that the effort they put in awards them with absolutely no advantage over their opponents other than the experience and skill they've gained from it.

 

Progress has always been an essential part of MMO's, progress and evolution. Which we can say bye-bye to now. I had no idea this was their plan upon purchase, if I had known I would not have purchased the game at all. I would not have spent 2 months farming gear to get ready for competitive and rated PvP.

[Laokoon]

If valor rank doesn't matter, if rating isn't required to purchase gear this is what will happen to most of our ranked matches.

 

It will kill competition, cause most people are only after the ranked commendations.

 

Why bother trying to raise you rank/elo if at the end of the day everyone is rewarded with the same gear anyway.

 

Why strive harder to be the best team if it doesn't really matter ? I predict alot of teams not even trying to fight back because intentionally losing will end the match faster.

 

faster matches = faster ranked commendations.

 

the ranked PVP in this game will just be a grind for gear nothing more.

 

One single word: leaderboards

 

Apparently this word spells doom for everyone using your argument because no one has at any point in this thread even dropped a hint as to how leaderboards would not fill the role of enticement for PvPers. Leaderboards solves all your problems.

 

You hear that BW? Is seems like pretty universal agreement that Leaderboards fixes this mess.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Laokoon

[drduncan]

If valor rank doesn't matter, if rating isn't required to purchase gear this is what will happen to most of our ranked matches.

 

It will kill competition, cause most people are only after the ranked commendations.

 

Why bother trying to raise you rank/elo if at the end of the day everyone is rewarded with the same gear anyway.

 

Why strive harder to be the best team if it doesn't really matter ? I predict alot of teams not even trying to fight back because intentionally losing will end the match faster.

 

faster matches = faster ranked commendations.

 

the ranked PVP in this game will just be a grind for gear nothing more.

 

 

You mention ELO...that is really laughable since it came from chess. Higher rated chess players DO NOT get extra nimble knights or get to trade a pawn for a third bishop. They compete for the rating. If they did something like you suggest for chess....then no one would ever unseat the ranking leader unless they just got bored and stopped playing.

 

The best do not need advantages if they are truly the best.

[TetraCleric]

I am pvping because I find it enjoyable, but not so enjoyable that I'm willing to spend hours on it every week for no reward. The rewards for the effort you put in are probably the main reason why MMO's have succeeded in the first place. And they are effectively removing that aspect from the game, leaving PvP for the novelty value and inherrent feeling of amusement. Which won't last long when people get over the first jolt of "Oh I'm having ever so much fun" and start to realize that the effort they put in awards them with absolutely no advantage over their opponents other than the experience and skill they've gained from it.

 

Progress has always been an essential part of MMO's, progress and evolution. Which we can say bye-bye to now. I had no idea this was their plan upon purchase, if I had known I would not have purchased the game at all. I would not have spent 2 months farming gear to get ready for competitive and rated PvP.

 

Why do you need advantages beyond skill in competitive PvP?

[Swiftarts]

Is that the word of GOD now or something seeing as you people keep saing it like the gospel.

 

Hell even COD and BF have gear progression.

 

COD and BF, in competitive environments, give all unlocks to the players.

[elorei]

Progress has always been an essential part of MMO's, progress and evolution. Which we can say bye-bye to now. I had no idea this was their plan upon purchase, if I had known I would not have purchased the game at all. I would not have spent 2 months farming gear to get ready for competitive and rated PvP.

 

Your lack of pvp experience is shown so brightly when you say something like this. Gear progression is actually kind of new in a competetive multiplayer environment.