So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

[richardya]

hardcore pvp'er would never want game having gear progression

 

This is an RPG MMO.Based on Dungeons and Dragons. They all have gear progression, until now. Shrink the gap if its too big, dont remove it.

Edited March 9, 2012 by richardya

[Darth_Sookie]

I didn't say anything about balance. No MMORPG is perfectly balanced, but it's almost impossible to argue that gear isn't contributing to an imbalance, if there even is one.

 

If the incentive is one of many why would it make no sense to remove it? The only reasons posted here were that you want something to work toward. The reasons given for removing it were that it creates a barrier of entry to casual players, causes claims that wins only come from a gear difference, and just plain isn't necessary. For someone who knows they're good at PVP, they aren't going to NEED that advantage. They may want it, but I haven't seen a reason you would need it. I also see no way you could prove that gear stats have no imbalancing effect, that's just not possible.

 

Even given plenty of other things to work toward, it's not enough for you because you refuse to concede that one, single incentive. You haven't given any reasons why, just that you need it. That's fine, I can live with that. Let's just move on. Nobody's right or wrong here, they're just preferences for certain playstyles.

 

I may not see the need for it, but there's no reason someone else is wrong for wanting to run a hamster wheel. In the end, the devs will decide what they think is best for the game, and history will decide whether or not they were right.

 

They are adressing the gear issue in 1.2 Pretty much every fresh level 50 will be geared in a full champrion set on day 1 of reaching 50 with the option to que solo for non ranked to get War Hero and Battlemaster gear. It can't get any easier.

 

I'm merely suggesting they add a half tier above that, like from champ > battlemaster that will be possible to gain if you have a high enough Rated Warzone rank.

Most players that do get this gear will spend probably 90% of the time in Rated Warzones.

 

Even IF these rated guys que a normal warzone i doubt the extra 5% gear stat they have will play any significant part in them steamrolling the other team. They'd probably win the game in the nude.

 

Why are you casuals so vehemently opposed to this? There must be some kind of deep rooted fear or feelings of inadequacy that drives you. Or is it that you can't stand the though of not having the shiny new toys the other kids are playing with? Even though you did NOTHING to earn them.

[dcgregorya]

This is an RPG MMO.Based on Dungeons and Dragons. They all have gear progression, until now. Shrink the gap if its too big, dont remove it.

 

The only reason D&D had a gear progression was because it was generally bad for the group to kill each other's characters off for ***** and giggles.

 

The vast majority of games I've played over the last 15+ years offered nothing but a leaderboard at the end and maybe a ladder rank.

 

 

There should be no gear gap. WoW PVP'ers needed it because they whine and cry a lot but there's no valid reason for it.

[Vaipyr]

This is an RPG MMO.Based on Dungeons and Dragons. They all have gear progression, until now.

 

God. Arguments like these make jesus weep for humanity. RPG's have nothing to do with gear grinding and ESPECIALLY dungeons and dragons (which I have been playing with my friends and co-workers since the original chainmail manuscript). In many people's D&D campaigns people don't see "uber gear rewards!" for a long time, if at all.

[L-RANDLE]

LOL!!!

 

Oh really, PVE mods are what is causing the disparity? Not Expertise which gives as much as 20% damage differences between the exact same specs? 10% extra damage and 10% damage reduction.

 

See dude, your BS doesn't work when people actually know how the game works, and you seem to have plenty of L2P left to do. Probably exactly why you need gear to help you win.

LOL AND YOU "MR. REAL PvPER" KNOWS THAT EXPERTISE IS CAUSING THE FACEROLL OR ADVANTAGE. WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT....

 

YOUR GAME EXPERTISE GOES UNQUESTIONED!! SO ANSWER THESE:

 

DOES BM GEAR GIVES A DECIDED ADVANTAGE OVER CENT GEAR?

DO YOU THINK +39 EXP IS BETTER THAN +6 WILLPOWER FROM A DAMAGE STAND POINT?

 

 

IF YOU ANSWERED YES TO EITHER, SORRY TO BURST YOUR BUBBLE BUT YOU ARE NOT GOOD AT MATH.

 

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT ADDING EXP NERFS YOUR MAIN STAT BY MORE THAN THE PERCENTAGE EXP INCREASE, WHICH INHERENTLY MAKES PvP GEAR WORTHLESS!!!! THERE IS A REASON I WAS BUYING CENT PIECES FOR MY COMPANION TANK!! THE CENT PIECES WERE NOT AN IMPROVEMENT OF WHAT WAS I ALREADY ACCUMULATED VIA QUESTING AND CRAFTING!!!! THEN YOU ADD COLUMI, HYBRID COLUMI, AND RAKATA INTO THE MIX AND THE FACEROLLING BEGINS...

 

YEAH SURE, IF YOU DON'T HAVE LVL 50/51 STUFF OR HAVE NO EXPERTISE, A BM WILL ROLL YOU, BUT THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR SAYING SOMETHING GIVES A DECIDED ADVANTAGE WHEN BECOMING FEASIBLE IS EASILY ATTAINABLE!!! GOD!!!

 

 

Here.... someone has already point out this fact... Read the quotes from Noctournys on this thread, go check your own stats on that "same level" equipment. Oh wait, do you have your PvP gear?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=222960&page=11

Edited March 9, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[TheronFett]

Why are you casuals so vehemently opposed to this? There must be some kind of deep rooted fear or feelings of inadequacy that drives you. Or is it that you can't stand the though of not having the shiny new toys the other kids are playing with? Even though you did NOTHING to earn them.

 

Didn't you get the memo? It's cool to be a Democrat these days. Everyone wants something for nothing.

[Coolss]

This is an RPG MMO.Based on Dungeons and Dragons. They all have gear progression, until now. Shrink the gap if its too big, dont remove it.

 

so what if it is a RPG MMO? hardcore pvp has nothing to do with RPG, it's about ranks and "valor".. yes they can add some shiny gear without any stat diff, fine with me, but for a real hardcore pvp there is no gear advantage wanted nor needed. on lower levels, fine fight with gear advantages, doesn't bother me, but I don't want to spend time on grinding to beat some silly level cap, I wanna fight evenly with skill agains't skill, team versus team where the only things that matter is ur setup and how good ur team is. maybe I am old fashioned in this but this is how I've always played games in hardcore level.

 

and just to let u know, if this game ever gets esports going in pvp, this is what is going to happen, in ladder, cups whatever. there will most likely be a gear that u need to wear and can obtain by joinning a ladder. this is to remove all kinda silly advantages, for example crew skills will be not allowed either.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Coolss

[Endusima]

Everyone has the possibility to get the best gear, if you meet someone with better gear it is because he spent more effort getting it then you.

 

The difference between champ and bm is very small, a full champ geared has every chance to beat a full bm. If everything should be equal in PvP then why not the same in PvE? That would be the most fair.

 

Why not remove gear entirely and tweak encounters for naked characters instead? That would be super equal and so fair for everyone your SKILLZ would be the only factor and it would be so *********** fun playing the game at all right?

[Almghty_gir]

once 1.2 hits and there is a ranking system in place. your progression in pvp should revolve solely around getting to the top of the leader board, and staying there. because there will always be someone that wants to steal your top spot.

 

that's what pvp is all about, competition. good healthy competition. leave gear out of it, and just fight for the sake of becoming a better player. you'll see yourself move up or down the rankings and react accordingly. and if you have the right mindset for it, that will be all the motivation you will ever need.

[Vaipyr]

Didn't you get the memo? It's cool to be a Democrat these days. Everyone wants something for nothing.

 

Better than being an inbred, woogy boogy man on a cloud worshipping, ignorant, sociopathic and narcissistic republican. Ah, so nice to bring up retarded personal attacks without any iota of proof or reasoning isn't it? Go back to worshipping money and ******* yourself while you stroke a gun magazine, inbreeder.

 

(not a democrat, I think both parties are idiots)

Edited March 9, 2012 by Vaipyr

[Coolss]

Everyone has the possibility to get the best gear, if you meet someone with better gear it is because he spent more effort getting it then you.

 

The difference between champ and bm is very small, a full champ geared has every chance to beat a full bm. If everything should be equal in PvP then why not the same in PvE? That would be the most fair.

 

Why not remove gear entirely and tweak encounters for naked characters instead? That would be super equal and so fair for everyone your SKILLZ would be the only factor and it would be so *********** fun playing the game at all right?

 

 

the effort shouldn't matter in hardcore pvp, what this topic is about. the only thing that should matter in hardcore pvp is ur team's setup and skill, nothing else. u should never be forced to grind some silly gear to be competitive, u should be able to jump up to "ladder" fights from first day if u have a team.

[Endusima]

the effort shouldn't matter in hardcore pvp, what this topic is about. the only thing that should matter in hardcore pvp is ur team's setup and skill, nothing else. u should never be forced to grind some silly gear to be competitive, u should be able to jump up to "ladder" fights from first day if u have a team.

 

 

The THING is boy, the "hardcore pvpers" already sit at maxed bm gear. How come you aint got that? To busy lfg BT HM? Use the same argument for your precious PvE boy.

 

"u should never be forced to grind some silly gear to be competitive, u should be able to jump up to "endgame pve" fights from first day if u have a team" -you

[Coolss]

The THING is boy, the "hardcore pvpers" already sit at maxed bm gear. How come you aint got that? To busy lfg BT HM? Use the same argument for your precious PvE boy.

 

"u should never be forced to grind some silly gear to be competitive, u should be able to jump up to "endgame pve" fights from first day if u have a team" -you

 

I really don't care about pve, it has no competitive elements, not in this game nor in wow that I played for 2 years. about having BM gear, it certainly does not show how skilled u r, it only shows u played a lot. u seem to be very agressive about this which is very clear to all players who have played other games on high ranked levels.

[AstralProjection]

 

Why are you casuals so vehemently opposed to this? There must be some kind of deep rooted fear or feelings of inadequacy that drives you. Or is it that you can't stand the though of not having the shiny new toys the other kids are playing with? Even though you did NOTHING to earn them.

 

Actually, way back toward the beginning of this thread I explained that I'm actually one of the people who thinks the gear gap is a joke.

 

I'm casual, and I STILL have the gear. I had no problems killing people with better gear than me as a fresh 50, and no, I wasn't one of the first bunch of level 50's.

 

That being said, I'm opposed to it because I've already seen what you're proposing.

 

Champ --> Battlemaster is an absolute joke - the difference is negligible, and for many classes/specs there's no reason to switch unless you're ripping out the mods because it's a sidegrade/downgrade for you.

 

We have the most minimal difference you can probably get with Battlemaster gear, and you know what you're still hearing?

 

"People in full BM come into my warzones and curbstomp me."

 

If that's the perception, fine. Take the gear advantage out. I'm sick of people using gear as a crutch for the reason why they LOST, not the reason they won/

 

I don't need the gear, I'll still play to win with a stat-based incentive or not. That's the only reason I'm not clamoring to keep the gap in place like you. I think it's so minimal it's a joke anyway, and frankly, just don't care.

 

Don't need it, don't want it, never asked for it. This ridiculous format was never pervasive before WoW anyway.

 

To the guy that mentioned D&D - that analogy doesn't hold anymore. MMORPG's cease to be like D&D when you add the "MMO" part. D&D was a PVE game, hence, the "Dungeon Master". It was about cooperative play versus a pre-designed environment.

 

D&D was never designed to be used in competitive interpersonal combat, and you would never have someone come in at Level 10 in a Level 20 campaign and expect them to be effective - because the things they were facing would be too powerful for them to be useful against.

[L-RANDLE]

Actually, way back toward the beginning of this thread I explained that I'm actually one of the people who thinks the gear gap is a joke.

 

I'm casual, and I STILL have the gear. I had no problems killing people with better gear than me as a fresh 50, and no, I wasn't one of the first bunch of level 50's.

 

That being said, I'm opposed to it because I've already seen what you're proposing.

 

Champ --> Battlemaster is an absolute joke - the difference is negligible, and for many classes/specs there's no reason to switch unless you're ripping out the mods because it's a sidegrade/downgrade for you.

 

We have the most minimal difference you can probably get with Battlemaster gear, and you know what you're still hearing?

 

"People in full BM come into my warzones and curbstomp me."

 

If that's the perception, fine. Take the gear advantage out. I'm sick of people using gear as a crutch for the reason why they LOST, not the reason they won/

 

I don't need the gear, I'll still play to win with a stat-based incentive or not. That's the only reason I'm not clamoring to keep the gap in place like you. I think it's so minimal it's a joke anyway, and frankly, just don't care.

Don't need it, don't want it, never asked for it. This ridiculous format was never pervasive before WoW anyway.

 

To the guy that mentioned D&D - that analogy doesn't hold anymore. MMORPG's cease to be like D&D when you add the "MMO" part. D&D was a PVE game, hence, the "Dungeon Master". It was about cooperative play versus a pre-designed environment.

 

D&D was never designed to be used in competitive interpersonal combat, and you would never have someone come in at Level 10 in a Level 20 campaign and expect them to be effective - because the things they were facing would be too powerful for them to be useful against.

 

Your words make my ******* go WOO-WOO...

[richardya]

I have never seen one thread asking for better stats on BM gear. The 2% increase was fine. There is no reason to remove progression. If you can not overcome a 2% stat deficiency then don't say you are skilled and losing to better gear. Battlemasters were happy with the progression and didnt want great stats. They just wanted progression and objectives.

 

Leave the progression in game but make the gap so it's not that big a deal. In this instance, it seems like the complainants got what they wanted and in this case it is not healthy for the game.

Edited March 9, 2012 by richardya

[EternalFinality]

I think it's interesting how people who want a gear grind keep comparing it to a job and those who want a level playing field compare it to other competitive games or sports.

 

I guess we know what both sides want from the game. Me, I already have a job, so no thank you to another one that doesn't even pay.

 

They'll get out of college eventually and find out what it's really like.

 

True. I like gear though. I dont care if its just unique styles with no mods... Schematics, crafting materials... I just want something at the end of the road when pvping... because honestly, sitting around and flexing my epeen got boring after the first year in wow.

 

So.... While I may not care if I get an advantage in gear. I would like something to show at the end of my day. And no, since Im paying for this game, winning isnt enough.

 

Someone who doesn't play for fun....pretty pathetic actually.

 

If it makes you sleep better at night i can concede that i indeed DO want segregated gear, however not for any of the reasons you think. I want to work for my gear, achieve it. And i want to improve my character. The only way to achieve this is trough better gear.

 

So you want a gear advantage. We know. All "I just want to improve my character" means is "I want my character to be better than other people."

 

Stop pretending otherwise.

[EternalFinality]

On a simplistic level you are right. Your gear was a deciding factor in that 1v1 encounter. But as I said in my original post, while you may lose (or win) a lot of 1v1s, statistically your teams gear should average out to be equal to the other teams gear, especially over time.

His choice to keep attacking you displays a lack of experience and, had he gone to the other side with his team mates, he may have found much more success and hypothetically tipped the balance in their favour. Instead, he and perhaps a stealthed character could have chosen to both engage you and cc you for the door plant. My point is, while in a 1v1 encounter gear will play a large role, it is actually that players choice to engage you that cost him the fight and poor tactical choices/lack of experience.

 

Claiming that "well the more people you add the less gear means" is just a ridiculous claim. The advantages don't go away just because there's more people nearby. If one team has 4 12k people and the other team does not, they have very little chance of victory. Can the better geared people succeed for a short period of time and ninja a node? Sure. But most often it's just domination.

 

Worse, you can almost always notice how things are going to play out in the first minute and gauge the average gear of your team vs theirs. Can a risky strategy overcome it? Possible, but unlikely. You used to be able to do it in Alderaan by getting both side turrets. I've held off teams that vastly outgeared us through revive streaming with the fast speeders, doing nothing but interrupting on the turret before getting obliterated. Bioware nerfed that.

 

Summary:

3 variables.

1. Skill

2. Gear

3. Communication

 

We want to strike a balance by controlling variables two and three (so as to make PvP more skill based) but also retain some sort of goal-orientated competitive experience. By removing premades and limiting both teams to typing in chat for tactics and strategy that puts No. 3 on an equal footing for both casuals and hardcore (who choose to play in premades against other premades). Future updates, which include intro PvP sets etc will also fix some of the issues with Gear without controlling the variable entirely. Balance is key (and I'm not saying they will do it perfectly, but they should at least try).

 

I don't think gear should be a variable at all in competitive PvP. Just skill and communication.

Edited March 9, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Wrathoran]

True. I like gear though. I dont care if its just unique styles with no mods... Schematics, crafting materials... I just want something at the end of the road when pvping... because honestly, sitting around and flexing my epeen got boring after the first year in wow.

 

So.... While I may not care if I get an advantage in gear. I would like something to show at the end of my day. And no, since Im paying for this game, winning isnt enough.

 

i like that and im the same.

 

I dont want gear advancement, i just want something to show that i pwn them all. Like a new set of armor with nothing in it that i transfer existing mod.

 

Gear advancement is only for people to rush forward because they have more time, not skills and then roflstomp lower geared people until they catch up. When they now pose a threat they QQ on their class forum about being underpowered making . BW dont listen to us, we are broken. Then after that they quit saying they made their class what they are today like they were some sort of legacy.

 

There you go, the basic pvp-huuuur. They dont want a challenge, they want to stomp people.

 

Me i want a challenge. If i can attack someone higher level and harder to kill i will do so, because if i beat him ill be so proud of me.

[MartyrLXXVII]

The Underlined in this statement is completely untrue. Anyone who has ever gotten anything in RL has always had to work more. More practice, more hours at the office, more dedication to whatever it is that they want to achieve. No one has ever gotten to a position of true power in anything by working the same as the regular 9-5 guy. Not now and not ever.

 

People who are good AND put the time in should be rewarded more than people who show up, do their job and go home; even in SWTOR. Whether it's PVP or PVE. No one should be able to walk into either with full gear and be able to compete without putting the time in.

 

The way you carebears think, we should log in the game, already be 50 on every class and have full T3 PvP and PvE epics. Games don't work that way, life doesn't work that way. It's the same reason that some people drive S600's and others drive Chevys. The Mercedes owner worked his *** off to get it (not including trust fund babies here), he shouldn't have to drive a chevy because no one else on his block can afford it.

 

The good news to all of this, is that soon everyone will be able to get War Hero gear. Everyone will have the same gear just by doing ranked matches, valor rank won't even be a factor. What are the carebears going to blame then when they're at 900 out of 2200 ELO? Will they finally just accept that they could be worse than they thought at PVP?

 

Posts like this simple have no clue.

 

You work hard for something, fine. You can have some ultra exclusive vanity item that shows how l337 you are. If you have to have stats then its no longer about showing how good you are, its only about the advantage those stats give you. And is you are earning that ultra exclusive stuff because you have an advantage then you are any where near l337 and true pvpers are going to respect you one bit. Your just a gear babie.

[MartyrLXXVII]

True. I like gear though. I dont care if its just unique styles with no mods... Schematics, crafting materials... I just want something at the end of the road when pvping... because honestly, sitting around and flexing my epeen got boring after the first year in wow.

 

So.... While I may not care if I get an advantage in gear. I would like something to show at the end of my day. And no, since Im paying for this game, winning isnt enough.

 

How I feel too. Why spend the time for nothing right. But what you get simply does not NEED stats.

[L-RANDLE]

Posts like this simple have no clue.

 

You work hard for something, fine. You can have some ultra exclusive vanity item that shows how l337 you are. If you have to have stats then its no longer about showing how good you are, its only about the advantage those stats give you. And is you are earning that ultra exclusive stuff because you have an advantage then you are any where near l337 and true pvpers are going to respect you one bit. Your just a gear babie.

 

And you expect "real PvP" in an RPG.....

 

You still haven't answered my questions...

[EternalFinality]

And you expect "real PvP" in an RPG.....

 

You still haven't answered my questions...

 

Genre doesn't matter. There is "real PvP" (read: fair) in every other genre. Dota PvP is fair, and Dota is an RPG.

 

It all comes down to how you design it.

Edited March 9, 2012 by EternalFinality

[MartyrLXXVII]

Again you totally ignore everything i said with another moronic statement.

 

If it makes you sleep better at night i can concede that i indeed DO want segregated gear, however not for any of the reasons you think. I want to work for my gear, achieve it. And i want to improve my character. The only way to achieve this is trough better gear.

 

I don't care if the upgrade is as small as champion > Battlemaster as long as there is something. The 5% extra stats will help, sure, but it won't break the game if i decide to que for a non ranked warzone solo. It's not like those 5% extra stats will make me an unstoppable juggernaut who can practically AFk due to my elite gear.

 

My motivation is NOT, i repeat is NOT to achieve this gear solely so that i can que with my friends in the non ranked warzones just to mess with the newbies. How you guys keep returning to that train of thought is disturbing and speaks more about your psychology than it does mine.

 

But you are 100% completely wrong. We all know there can be rewards and progression WITHOUT stats. So if all you want is some sort of reward then why do you have to have stats?

[L-RANDLE]

Genre doesn't matter. There is "real PvP" (read: fair) in every other genre. Dota PvP is fair, and Dota is an RPG.

 

It all comes down to how you design it.

 

Sure, but most RPG's are not designed for PvP... It's almost a side show in this case and the gear difference is negligible on just about every level..