So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

[ohnam]

it didn't keep hardcore pvE players around....

 

there are still hardcore pvp'ers playing it. it's still one of the best pvp games around.

 

stupid thing is, even WAR has better pvp than SWTOR, but you muppets would likely not even give it a go.

 

I agree War has better pvp than SWTOR but DAOC was better than War. To be honest the best pvp game I played was Shadowbane.

[RichardNoggin]

My arguement is that if you are a pvper you wont be able to turn around and just jump straight into an endgame raid without having to gear up to the content. So why is it that PvEers expect to be able to jump right into endgame pvp without even gearing up to the current players.

 

Seems to me the PvE community shoulda stuck to there Ops where they belong and stop QQing when you think you should be able to crossover into PvP and compete with people thats been doing it much longer than you.

 

Ok so if I cant kill a boss or mob in a flashpoint as quick as the other PvEers thats been doing it for a while and have better gear than me because I do PvP and thats what my gear is for. Then Ill just go QQ to BW and they can dumb down the content so it can be completly puggable by people with ****** gear or pvp gear. I bet you PvE guys would love your part of the game being ruined for us PvEers huh.

 

So why do you question the PvP community when we get pissed when this happens to us cause thats what they just practically did.

[Cruxe]

My arguement is that if you are a pvper you wont be able to turn around and just jump straight into an endgame raid without having to gear up to the content. So why is it that PvEers expect to be able to jump right into endgame pvp without even gearing up to the current players.

 

You can easily do HM Ops in PvP gear, maybe even NM.

 

 

GW is still wildly popular, not sure what you're talking about. Always a crap ton of people playing.

 

But is that because it's good or because there's no sub?

 

 

bearing in mind that guildwars is arguably the second most successful mmo after world of warcraft

 

You have numbers to back this up, or just your opinion?

Edited March 7, 2012 by Cruxe

[Nicain]

This, this attitude is why true PVP will never exist anymore on this game. Please 1.2, you are our only hope.

 

Since when is 'true' pvp carbon copy guy 1 against carbon copy guy 2. Hell even in street fighter game there are pros and cons to every character.

 

So you want this game to have less depth than street fighter?

 

You guys are seriously mentally challenged if you can't farm yourself a BP.

 

Seriously I bet half these changes are from people on PVE servers who really shouldn't have a say about what happens on PVP servers.

[Vaeil]

MMO casuals that don't want to put effort into their game make me laugh so hard, i cry. you DESERVE to be stomped all over. its not even the gear that makes a differance in this game, in my opinion. the thing that makes ME sick is the fact that YOU expect to get all this handed to you, then YOU feel entitled to insult the people that actually DESERVE respect.

 

did you really think that elitests are the problem with this genre? you are the problem. you're worse than any elitest that has ever rofl stomped you, because you do the same as them except you have nothing to back you other than " i don't want to have to spend my time playing as if its a second job" and you always feel like everything is entitled to you because its not "fun".

 

they should make a kiddie bracket just for you all, where there IS no gear, just tokens that give you vanity crap. no gear progression. it'll be the same as you getting your crap handed to you. what? thats not acceptable? why not? because gear makes you feel special right? you like to feel like you've 'earned' something? SO DO WE. GET OVER IT.

 

amen

[drduncan]

i'm pretty much done with the whole argument... guildwars proved without a shadow of a doubt that pvp can be done with standardised stats, and no gear progression involvement. they proved that it can be successful.

 

bearing in mind that guildwars is arguably the second most successful mmo after world of warcraft, and guildwars 2 is set to be just as good if not better than the first building on a solid foundation of excellent pvp gameplay and morals, and expanding it to a level that we've likely not seen since dark age of camelot.

 

so to be honest, i wouldn't be surprised if 1.2 flops. i hope it doesn't, but i wouldn't be surprised... i hoped the launch game would be great too... but it quickly went downhill.

 

i think you, and players like you need to learn what horizontal progression is, and then realise that it can be just as good, and in terms of pvp is almost always the better option compared to vertical progression.

 

so you can keep your pvp progression, knock yourself out. enjoy fighting no-name puggies and scrubs while the real pvpers move over to gw2. oh and we won't have to pay a subscription for that, either.

 

Me too man... it is plain as day. More competition breeds better pvp. Not gear. If swtor DOES fully go to an even playing field like it seems to be... then I will probably be here a lot longer than I thought initially.

 

WoW has what you minority people want. Epeen. Go get it there if it was so great. I enjoyed wow a lot but the pvp there is horrible. Gated for the top 5% of playtimers. I can do the crazy time investment and did in that game, but a lot of my RL friends can't. Why should they be asked to play at a gear disadvantage? Guys are great experienced players. I'm looking for something different now... something like we used to have in mmo-pvp in every game before wow. A game where skill is more important that how much free time a person has.

[TUXs]

By "progression" you really mean "I want to be more powerful and win easily" right?

 

You're hardcore. You already are more skilled than the casuals. You'll beat them with equal gear. Unless you're afraid that perhaps you won't?

 

That's exactly what it sounds like to me.

[Lexalot]

As long as superior gear an only be obtainded by actually DOING PVP everything would be fine for me. But I must confess, I can't stand to lose to some guy with better gear when I KNOW he got the gear through kill trading or even worse (if that is even possible) BG botting.

[Nicain]

My arguement is that if you are a pvper you wont be able to turn around and just jump straight into an endgame raid without having to gear up to the content. So why is it that PvEers expect to be able to jump right into endgame pvp without even gearing up to the current players.

 

Seems to me the PvE community shoulda stuck to there Ops where they belong and stop QQing when you think you should be able to crossover into PvP and compete with people thats been doing it much longer than you.

 

Ok so if I cant kill a boss or mob in a flashpoint as quick as the other PvEers thats been doing it for a while and have better gear than me because I do PvP and thats what my gear is for. Then Ill just go QQ to BW and they can dumb down the content so it can be completly puggable by people with ****** gear or pvp gear. I bet you PvE guys would love your part of the game being ruined for us PvEers huh.

 

So why do you question the PvP community when we get pissed when this happens to us cause thats what they just practically did.

 

+1 to this, it's perfect but the PVE community will deny it until they're blue in the face.

[RichardNoggin]

You can easily do HM Ops in PvP gear, maybe even NM.?

 

No im talking about all endgame insane mode or whatever its called ops all of it should be puggable by fresh 50's and people in full pvp gear cause thats what you want for pvp so it should be just as good for pve.

[Almghty_gir]

+1 to this, it's perfect but the PVE community will deny it until they're blue in the face.

 

-1 to this, there are viable solutions to the problem, which work, are proven, and could have been used here.

 

expertise was and is a crutch that isn't working as intended. pvp gear is the biggest mistake they've made (in my eyes).

[Cruxe]

No im talking about all endgame insane mode or whatever its called ops all of it should be puggable by fresh 50's and people in full pvp gear cause thats what you want for pvp so it should be just as good for pve.

 

 

So by this argument you're saying that fresh 50s walk into WZs with full battlemaster? Really?

[Gwal]

My arguement is that if you are a pvper you wont be able to turn around and just jump straight into an endgame raid without having to gear up to the content. So why is it that PvEers expect to be able to jump right into endgame pvp without even gearing up to the current players.

 

Seems to me the PvE community shoulda stuck to there Ops where they belong and stop QQing when you think you should be able to crossover into PvP and compete with people thats been doing it much longer than you.

 

Ok so if I cant kill a boss or mob in a flashpoint as quick as the other PvEers thats been doing it for a while and have better gear than me because I do PvP and thats what my gear is for. Then Ill just go QQ to BW and they can dumb down the content so it can be completly puggable by people with ****** gear or pvp gear. I bet you PvE guys would love your part of the game being ruined for us PvEers huh.

 

So why do you question the PvP community when we get pissed when this happens to us cause thats what they just practically did.

 

This would make sense if t1 pvp'ers fought other T1 pvpers but that isn't what happens. They get thrown in with with T2/3 players.

 

PvP gear is currently viable for all NM mode ops

[Nicain]

-1 to this, there are viable solutions to the problem, which work, are proven, and could have been used here.

 

expertise was and is a crutch that isn't working as intended. pvp gear is the biggest mistake they've made (in my eyes).

 

So the only fixes are your ideas. How many games have you developed?

 

As far as the expertise STAT I could give or take it, it doesn't really impact me because either I'm going to beat you or you're going to beat me, the expertise stat just quickens it in either direction.

 

As far as the GEAR being made trivial is a huge issue and the only reason they're doing it is to appease your kind of people. If they removed the expertise stat, but kept the difficulty to obtain the same would you change your mind?

 

I doubt it, you'd still want it 'equalized'. You'll keep QQing about YOUR experience until they make both changes.

 

PVP Specific stat's, I'm indifferent, but T1 pvp gear should be the same difficulty to get as the T1 PVE set, in its own way. And they should mirror each other up the ladder.

 

That's how you fix it, not this "Cap this here, and cap that here, and make this easier and remove that" method you're trying to impose.

 

Learn to play or go back to Hello Kitty Treasure Island.

[drduncan]

So the only fixes are your ideas. How many games have you developed?

 

As far as the expertise STAT I could give or take it, it doesn't really impact me because either I'm going to beat you or you're going to beat me, the expertise stat just quickens it in either direction.

 

As far as the GEAR being made trivial is a huge issue and the only reason they're doing it is to appease your kind of people. If they removed the expertise stat, but kept the difficulty to obtain the same would you change your mind?

 

I doubt it, you'd still want it 'equalized'. You'll keep QQing about YOUR experience until they make both changes.

 

PVP Specific stat's, I'm indifferent, but T1 pvp gear should be the same difficulty to get as the T1 PVE set, in its own way. And they should mirror each other up the ladder.

 

That's how you fix it, not this "Cap this here, and cap that here, and make this easier and remove that" method you're trying to impose.

 

Learn to play or go back to Hello Kitty Treasure Island.

 

You're pretty offensive and show a tremendous lack of knowledge and/or experience with competitive pvp.

[Seriasx]

Gear rewards for pvp is always a terrible design.

 

The best pvp for everyone is when gear does not factor into the equation

[Bullwrath]

If you want to chase gear pve, if you want to fight others pvp.

 

This is the way it *should* work, but it doesn't.

 

In order to make sure that the PvE crowd doesn't get their shinies and then come into PvP and kick the crap out of people, PvP needs to have increasing gear levels to compensate, and suddenly we have a PvP gear grind, too.

 

I'd love to see a different system, but it seems Bioware has opted for the WoW model.

[Seriasx]

By everyone I mean serious pvpers, noob pvpers and new pvpers.

 

The only people who want gear crutches are those pve players that finally got bored of killing dragons and now see pvp as a different gearing path as opposed to a more challenging game experience.

[EhLiar]

I think progression should come from the players, not from the game. Rather, the game should have enough depth that the players constantly find room to improve themselves, like in Starcraft or Street Fighter or DotA or CS or basketball or...

 

well, pretty much any competitive game?

 

Playing more generally means you'll be better, but that's because you worked harder and actually improved yourself, not because the game gave you stronger pants.

[Laokoon]

Man these casuals have a hard time reading. We want progression, just like the progression in pve. We don't want a ceiling. We don't give a eff if new 50's get smashed, that's not our problem.

 

If you take away progression you will lose some people, maybe a lot maybe a little. The combat in this game isn't that good for most of us to stick around unless we can progress our character.

 

You guys keep saying you want a equal footing, everyone the same pvp system. That might be fun if they keep adding new warzones on a monthly basis but if they don't the game will get so stale.

 

No matter what TOR is a mmo. MMO are about progression. In the early days there was no pvp progression and people needed to do pve to progress. Players then realized fighting npc gets old quick and is boring. That's why newer mmo included pvp in their system. They added progression through pvp, they are learning that trends are changing where pvp is becoming more important than pve.

 

If you take away progression through pvp, then game over. I guess it doesn't matter I unsubbed but still got 50 days left. So I will argue with you all on these forums until then.

 

 

Also side note on the poster who said Blizzard admitted adding arenas was a big mistake. He followed up saying it was a mistake because they just tacked it on and didn't think about it when they were building WoW originally. That was the mistake. Not the feature itself but how they just bolted in on.

 

To ohnam, RichardNoggin, Darth_Sookie, and every other person arguing for gear progression:

 

What if I could detail a system that eliminated gear progression but still perfectly satisfied your need for a feeling of progression in your character, recognition from your peers, trophies to show your accomplishments, incentives to keep playing, distinction from newer players, everything that you are saying are the reasons underlying WHY you want gear progression?

 

If I could describe a system to you that satisfied all of these goals, all the reasons that you say you want gear progression AND it also happened to incorporate the other players' desires to make the competition skill based by eliminating the gear component, would you be willing to drop your claims that we MUST have a gear progression system? Would you be willing to admit that gear progression is not the only way and support another system that accomplishes the same goals you all have laid out?

 

If not, then you have not yet told us your real underlying reasons. Please tell us what are your real underlying reasons and if I can incorporate them into a new system, that should satisfy your needs.

 

I completely understand, sympathize, and agree with a need to have progression. That is basic human nature, we enjoy progression. I think every game benefits from it. The mistake that I have seen run rampant here is the unstated belief that gear progression is the only possible form of progression.

 

So if I could detail another way for you, would it be possible for you to change your minds?

Edited March 7, 2012 by Laokoon

[EternalFinality]

My arguement is that if you are a pvper you wont be able to turn around and just jump straight into an endgame raid without having to gear up to the content. So why is it that PvEers expect to be able to jump right into endgame pvp without even gearing up to the current players.

 

Seems to me the PvE community shoulda stuck to there Ops where they belong and stop QQing when you think you should be able to crossover into PvP and compete with people thats been doing it much longer than you.

 

Ok so if I cant kill a boss or mob in a flashpoint as quick as the other PvEers thats been doing it for a while and have better gear than me because I do PvP and thats what my gear is for. Then Ill just go QQ to BW and they can dumb down the content so it can be completly puggable by people with ****** gear or pvp gear. I bet you PvE guys would love your part of the game being ruined for us PvEers huh.

 

So why do you question the PvP community when we get pissed when this happens to us cause thats what they just practically did.

 

Because MMO PvE and PvP are completely different. One might even call them different genres. That they're crammed into the same game and that PvP shares some of the same unfortunate side effects carried over from PvE that don't fit the mechanics well at all is a huge problem most MMO developers don't address, mostly because PvP is an afterthought in development compared to PvE.

 

Stop applying the PvE mentality to PvP. The principle of persistent advancement being a good idea doesn't exist in any other competitive multiplayer game in the world, video or otherwise.

[Nicain]

To ohnam, RichardNoggin, Darth_Sookie, and every other person arguing for gear progression:

 

What if I could detail a system that eliminated gear progression but still perfectly satisfied your need for a feeling of progression in your character, recognition from your peers, trophies to show your accomplishments, incentives to keep playing, distinction from newer players, everything that you are saying are the reasons underlying WHY you want gear progression?

 

If I could describe a system to you that satisfied all of these goals, all the reasons that you say you want gear progression AND it also happened to incorporate the other players' desires to make the competition skill based by eliminating the gear component, would you be willing to drop your claims that we MUST have a gear progression system? Would you be willing to admit that gear progression is not the only way and support another system that accomplishes the same goals you all have laid out?

 

If not, please tell us what is your real underlying reason(s).

 

I completely understand, sympathize, and agree with a need to have progression. That is basic human nature, we enjoy progression. I think every game benefits from it. The mistake that I have seen run rampant here is the unstated belief that gear progression is the only possible form of progression.

 

So if I could detail another way for you, would it be possible for you to change your minds?

 

 

What if we like the classic gear based system? What if we don't want to be talked into a new system? Would you be willing to segment servers so you can play in your non-gear based world and we could go play in our gear based worlds?

 

I think that's fair, but I think you guys will be labeled carebears for playing on those servers and then complain that playing on those servers is getting you mean nicknames, then you'll want the rules to be across all servers.

 

Point is, you want what you want and you're not willing to change your mind, even if this is what an MMO is suppose to be, ability and gear driven progression.

 

I forget since I come from EQ, that most of the world are Call of Duty idiots and can't handle a game with tiered progression.

 

I can't handle it, change it for everyone, waaaaahhh!

[ohnam]

To ohnam, RichardNoggin, Darth_Sookie, and every other person arguing for gear progression:

 

What if I could detail a system that eliminated gear progression but still perfectly satisfied your need for a feeling of progression in your character, recognition from your peers, trophies to show your accomplishments, incentives to keep playing, distinction from newer players, everything that you are saying are the reasons underlying WHY you want gear progression?

 

If I could describe a system to you that satisfied all of these goals, all the reasons that you say you want gear progression AND it also happened to incorporate the other players' desires to make the competition skill based by eliminating the gear component, would you be willing to drop your claims that we MUST have a gear progression system? Would you be willing to admit that gear progression is not the only way and support another system that accomplishes the same goals you all have laid out?

 

If not, then you have not yet told us your real underlying reasons. Please tell us what are your real underlying reasons and if I can incorporate them into a new system, that should satisfy your needs.

 

I completely understand, sympathize, and agree with a need to have progression. That is basic human nature, we enjoy progression. I think every game benefits from it. The mistake that I have seen run rampant here is the unstated belief that gear progression is the only possible form of progression.

 

So if I could detail another way for you, would it be possible for you to change your minds?

 

For me to find the game appealing for the long term I need actual things that change my character over time. I need a tangible goal. Rankings and stat boards are cool but I get that from the end of a warzones and that achievement need is satisfied.

 

I need new powers, improvement to my stats if I can't get new powers, hell to be honest I say remove the talent tree system and let me pick what talents I want instead being gated by the talent tree structure.

 

My problem is if everything stays static I can figure put the outcome of a warzone quickly in my head be accurate for majority of the time. That's no fun if I know the outcome already.

 

I need to min/max and have choices on how to pvp. Rankings and all that other stuff are better for fps and rts in my opinion. Those games are better balanced than mmo's usually are because they really don't use a class base system.

 

I need a carrot just like the pve people need it.

Edited March 7, 2012 by ohnam

[Nicain]

 

Stop applying the PvE mentality to PvP. The principle of persistent advancement being a good idea doesn't exist in any other competitive multiplayer game in the world, video or otherwise.

 

I just, wow.

 

I'm not sure what stuns me more, the fact you said that or the fact you actually believe that.

 

You sir win today's Darwin award, here you go.

 

Persistent advancement is what drives BOTH PVP and PVE just because you're a PVE carebear and don't want to deal with the PVP side of it doesn't mean what you just said has any basis in reality, anywhere.

 

EQ - Both the PVP and PVE game was driven by advancement, even though PVP and PVE were bound together in EQ

 

WoW - Compartmentalized PVP and PVE and drove both through advancement

 

Shadowbane - PVP game which is driven through advancement

 

Lineage 2 - PVP game driven through advancement

 

EQ2 - PVE game, which added PVP servers with a gear set which allows for, you guessed it advancement.

 

You see, MOST games of this type drive through advancement, in both the PVE and PVP schema s.

 

Just because YOU don't like gear driven PVP doesn't mean most people don't. If I wanted to play gearless pvp I'd be playing call of duty, that's gearless pvp, but i come to an MMO RPG to develop and advance, and gear is a big part of that.

 

Sorry you're so new.

[Laokoon]

What if we like the classic gear based system? What if we don't want to be talked into a new system?

 

So are you saying that all of the previous reasons you gave as to why you want the gear based system were not the real truth?

 

I am asking you, if I could satisfy ALL of your desires, but do it with a different method, would you be okay with that? Are you saying, you would not?

 

Isn't that like choosing one five dollar bill over another five dollar bill? They have equal value, they provide equal benefit, how are you making the distinction as to which one is "better"?

 

Aren't you essentially saying that the previous gear progression system is the best of all possible systems ever? If you are saying there is literally no possibility that another suggested system could ever replace it, it logically follows that you are suggesting that the previous gear system was the ideal perfectly implemented system upon which no improvements could be made.

 

Do you really believe that?

 

Would you be willing to segment servers so you can play in your non-gear based world and we could go play in our gear based worlds?

 

I would be TOTALLY fine with this. I think it is a wonderful idea. However, I know it is not likely to happen to due the nature of game design costs.

 

I think that's fair, but I think you guys will be labeled carebears for playing on those servers and then complain that playing on those servers is getting you mean nicknames, then you'll want the rules to be across all servers.

 

I think it is fair too. Unfortunately due to cost restrictions it won't happen.

 

BTW, using pejoratives to describe someone that is merely different from you is a sign of low intelligence. I am not saying you are, but if people are going to insult other people, describe them in a derogatory fashion simply because they have different preferences, that is a sure sign that the people doing the insulting are not comfortable enough with themselves and they need to make other people feel bad to make themselves feel better. It is a bully complex, I won't feel as week if I make other people feel weaker. It is sad.

 

I played Diablo 2 for a long time, I never played Hardcore mode (you die once, it is game over, make a new character). Players who didn't play hardcore mode were labeled as carebears. It was a stupid name, but I enjoyed the mode I played so I kept with it. Let people who feel bad about themselves think what they want about you, it doesn't change reality.

 

Point is, you want what you want and you're not willing to change your mind, even if this is what an MMO is suppose to be, ability and gear driven progression.

 

Excuse me, I am willing to change my mind. I have done it many times before. In the general section: I was dead set against letting legacy race unlocks be used on existing characters. I asked the OP (HERE) to provide a convincing rational argument, otherwise I would remain disagreeing with them. They provided it, I changed my mind (HERE).

 

Are you saying you are incapable of changing your mind? If so, please see the fist link in my signature: Rational Discussion Flow-chart. If you are incapable of changing your mind, you are incapable of having a rational discussion on the subject.

 

I forget since I come from EQ, that most of the world are Call of Duty idiots and can't handle a game with tiered progression.

 

I can't handle it, change it for everyone, waaaaahhh!

 

Why do you feel you need to result to insulting other people? Does it make you feel good? Do you think it makes your point more valid? What is the reason? Do consider yourself mature when you do it?

Edited March 7, 2012 by Laokoon