Why did Swtor turn into GW2?

[Jarfunkz]

Guild Wars has sold almost 7 million copies and it's one of the most successful PC games ever made. In comparison, Diablo II and Starcraft II both sold 4-5 million and they're generally considered huge hits. For a 7 years old game it still has a very nice player base - where do you see this game in 7 years?QUOTE]

 

7 million divided by 4 over 7 years = big diffrence

 

arenanet made its players buy the same game 4 times, it did not sell 7 million. thats like adding all of wow expansion sales together and saying thats how many copies of wow sold.

 

GW fanbois are worse than star wars fans and that is saying alot

 

star craft II sold 4.5 million copies just in december 2010 (was also pirated over 2.3 million times).

 

DiabloII as of the end of 2001 sold over 4 million copies.

 

Starcraft itself has sold over 11 million copies

[CaptainInsano]

Yeah I'm not totally sure about GW2. If you take the gear grind out of an MMORPG it ceases to be an RPG to me and becomes more of a MOBA. Luckily the equal gear for everyone is only for the equivalent of Warzones in GW2. The RvR will still take gear and character level into account. But you generally shouldn't be playing MMOs to show off your skill in PvP. That's just one component along with time invested and gear choices. If you make it all about skill you might as well be playing an FPS at that point.

[Scoobings]

All I'm saying is I wish there was a way to track player accounts across different forums. That way I could just sit back with a bowl of popcorn and a nice cold coke and watch as the same people complain about GW2 and how it let them down. How DAOC was better, an XXX class is OP and XXX game feature is gamebreaking. Then they will conclude the post with "See you all in <insert anticipated MMO here>"

[TUXs]

Because pve players fight the easiest raid mob for the lowest raid drop all the way to the highest dragon and the best loot.

 

Pvp doesnt work like this because all players regardless of gear fight one another, the ones with the gear beat the ones without the gear and the only way to get gear is by winning, the saddest part being that none of us want gear in the first place, were pvpers and we want to kill everyone without dumb gear advantages from playing more often.

 

Very nice explanation. I was going to say something similar. PvE is 100% predictable, PvP isn't. In PvE you learn the mechanics, then learn how to beat them, then win. There's no PvP equivalent and no youtube videos to watch of successful PvP groups (yeah, I understand people post PvP videos).

[dlaselle]

The reason why GW2 is going to fail is its the same thing. Dungeon and Dragon. Elf VS Goblin.

 

You want an original game. Check out The Secret World. Modern World Locations. No levels, no classes.

[dlaselle]

Very nice explanation. I was going to say something similar. PvE is 100% predictable, PvP isn't. In PvE you learn the mechanics, then learn how to beat them, then win. There's no PvP equivalent and no youtube videos to watch of successful PvP groups (yeah, I understand people post PvP videos).

 

Are you serious? What skill does it take to run around in a circle and kill a player? Your right no mechanics there at at!

[TUXs]

Are you serious? What skill does it take to run around in a circle and kill a player? Your right no mechanics there at at!

 

Yeah, very serious. It takes a helluva lot more to win a WZ fight than it does a HM EV/KP. When I run EV/KP HM I stand in one spot, moving only if my target gets out of range.

[Ryotknife]

Very nice explanation. I was going to say something similar. PvE is 100% predictable, PvP isn't. In PvE you learn the mechanics, then learn how to beat them, then win. There's no PvP equivalent and no youtube videos to watch of successful PvP groups (yeah, I understand people post PvP videos).

 

actually, after awhile pvp fights turn just as mundane as pve ones. it just takes longer.

[Ashraman]

I guess I would disagree. Games aren't supposed to just be treadmills. Games should be fun, entertaining, etc. You should be enjoying the game while you're playing it, not afterwards when you get a new shiny bauble to fawn over.

 

Look at games like SC, LoL, even lesser known but fun games like World of Tanks. (Though I could do without the cash shop selling uber-tanks in that game) Even though there's no shiny to grind for that lets you beat up people who don't have that same shiny, people still keep playing them because they have fun doing it.

 

Sad that people seem to have lost sight of that in MMO's. People focus so much on the gear element that you'll seriously hear things like, "Why should I even play if there's no gear grind?!?!?"

 

That just seems sad.

 

You've misread my post. Nowhere did I say that a game would not be worth playing without a "gear grind", i.e. character progression. I specifically mentioned that I purchased, played and enjoyed Guild Wars 1, and most of the Battlefield series of games. There was no gear grind in any of those games. However, I would not be willing to pay a monthly fee in addition to the purchase price for any of those titles, or at least not for more than a couple of months.

 

I find it puzzling you do not recognize that character progression is a core feature of an MMORPG, or indeed, in most mainstream RPGS's of any stripe, dating back to the granddaddy of all RPG's, tabletop D&D, which I played as a child. I have "lost sight" of nothing. Based on your post, it seems to me that the FPS MMO genre, which I also enjoy, may be more to your liking.

[Ryotknife]

Yeah, very serious. It takes a helluva lot more to win a WZ fight than it does a HM EV/KP. When I run EV/KP HM I stand in one spot, moving only if my target gets out of range.

 

well, the pve fights so far are extremely easy, i havent had a single fight that was the equivalent to lady vash, archimonde, or yogg saron (and those are just the ones from wow that ive done, not necessarily the hardest ones either).

 

some of those fights tooks months at ~7 hours a week to down him. lady vashj alone took my guild 2 or 3 months to beat.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Scoobings]

You've misread my post. Nowhere did I say that a game would not be worth playing without a "gear grind", i.e. character progression. I specifically mentioned that I purchased, played and enjoyed Guild Wars 1, and most of the Battlefield series of games. There was no gear grind in any of those games. However, I would not be willing to pay a monthly fee in addition to the purchase price for any of those titles, or at least not for more than a couple of months.

 

I find it puzzling you do not recognize that character progression is a core feature of an MMORPG, or indeed, in most mainstream RPGS's of any stripe, dating back to the granddaddy of all RPG's, tabletop D&D, which I played as a child. I have "lost sight" of nothing. Based on your post, it seems to me that the FPS MMO genre, which I also enjoy, may be more to your liking.

 

This. That's actually why I created my signature. To be fair though, there are almost 0 FPS mmos worth playing. It's been a tough nut to crack.

[Ryotknife]

You've misread my post. Nowhere did I say that a game would not be worth playing without a "gear grind", i.e. character progression. I specifically mentioned that I purchased, played and enjoyed Guild Wars 1, and most of the Battlefield series of games. There was no gear grind in any of those games. However, I would not be willing to pay a monthly fee in addition to the purchase price for any of those titles, or at least not for more than a couple of months.

 

I find it puzzling you do not recognize that character progression is a core feature of an MMORPG, or indeed, in most mainstream RPGS's of any stripe, dating back to the granddaddy of all RPG's, tabletop D&D, which I played as a child. I have "lost sight" of nothing. Based on your post, it seems to me that the FPS MMO genre, which I also enjoy, may be more to your liking.

 

i dont mind gear progression per se, but swtor gear progression was just asinine as to how long it originally took to get full BM. now they have gone to the other extreme, which is equally as puzzling.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Ryotknife

[DarthOvertone]

grats? Gw 2 will follow in Gw1 footsteps and die.

 

Don't know if it will die, but it certainly won't be the *******. GW1 was a very fun game for about 2-3 months. GW2 will be the same. I've found the majority of GW2 fanbois haven't even played GW1...lol...so have absolutely no clue how it's going to go down.

[Blistrich]

To be fair though, there are almost 0 FPS mmos worth playing. It's been a tough nut to crack.

Excellent point. Apparently they're trying to crack said nut with Warhammer 40K, but that project has been shelved more times than a can of baked beans. Mortal Online is, I suppose, the closest thing to a functional FPS MMO available, and unless you enjoy having no linear progression whatsoever in your game while being fed into a PvP meat grinder on a daily basis, I would highly recommend avoiding it like the plague.

 

Regardless of how you do it, there will be whine. If you make gear a matter of time investment, the casuals wail. If you make it too easy, those seeking a challenge beat their war drums and set sail with the ragequit armada.

 

Balance takes time. Many patches will be required, and after dozens and dozens more, problems will persist. I suppose the simplest solution is to provide more avenues to acquire competitive gear without breaking down the associated challenge.

 

Not an easy task.

[GrandMike]

You've misread my post. Nowhere did I say that a game would not be worth playing without a "gear grind", i.e. character progression. I specifically mentioned that I purchased, played and enjoyed Guild Wars 1, and most of the Battlefield series of games. There was no gear grind in any of those games. However, I would not be willing to pay a monthly fee in addition to the purchase price for any of those titles, or at least not for more than a couple of months.

 

I find it puzzling you do not recognize that character progression is a core feature of an MMORPG, or indeed, in most mainstream RPGS's of any stripe, dating back to the granddaddy of all RPG's, tabletop D&D, which I played as a child. I have "lost sight" of nothing. Based on your post, it seems to me that the FPS MMO genre, which I also enjoy, may be more to your liking.

 

Really? You played D&D like:

 

beat same monster once every week for months and roll d100 to see if it drops "sword of uberness" or "pants of fanciness"?

 

Wow, must have been very boring sessions.

 

No, MMOs have NOTHING on D&D (or any such system, d20). Levels and gear DO NOT RPG make. So you couldnt have lost it from sight since you have never actually had it in sight in the first place.

Edited April 5, 2012 by GrandMike

[TDRedmage]

Back in the day ppl were willing to put time into earning gear, sadly now the entitlement generation has started playing mmo's and has ruined WOW and many other games.

The entitlement generation feels they should have everything right now with no work on a silver platter...

 

You act as if gear prosgression is something hard earned that only the best of the best manage.

 

The truth is the gear you have is directly proportional to the amount of time you spend playing. It has nothing to do with skill at all.

[BrotardNosef]

LOL @ GW2. Expectations so high that even if it is the best game made in decades people are gonna be disappointed. I personally expect it to end up somewhere on the middle to low end of the "awesomeness" spectrum for games released this year.

[NukeMom]

You've misread my post. Nowhere did I say that a game would not be worth playing without a "gear grind", i.e. character progression. I specifically mentioned that I purchased, played and enjoyed Guild Wars 1, and most of the Battlefield series of games. There was no gear grind in any of those games. However, I would not be willing to pay a monthly fee in addition to the purchase price for any of those titles, or at least not for more than a couple of months.

 

So you'd play games without gear grinds if they're free...but only gear grinds are worth paying for?

 

I find it puzzling you do not recognize that character progression is a core feature of an MMORPG, or indeed, in most mainstream RPGS's of any stripe, dating back to the granddaddy of all RPG's, tabletop D&D, which I played as a child. I have "lost sight" of nothing. Based on your post, it seems to me that the FPS MMO genre, which I also enjoy, may be more to your liking.

 

Character progression, sure. Not necessarily gear progression and certainly not via blatant treadmill or Skinner Box grinds. And I sure don't remember D&D being a gear grind, most of the time we weren't even paying attention to the items on our stat sheets, it was more about....playing the game.

 

The reason why GW2 is going to fail is its the same thing. Dungeon and Dragon. Elf VS Goblin.

 

You want an original game. Check out The Secret World. Modern World Locations. No levels, no classes.

 

Yeah, vampires and werewolves are so much more original than elves and goblins.

Edited April 5, 2012 by NukeMom

[indelible]

The hypocrisy in this thread really does amuse me endlessly.

 

We have a group of people claiming that the reason stat differences between tiers in PvP is happening is becaue people feel entitled. They then go on to say to those people that they shouldn't play MMOs if they don't like the established trends (someone's sig sums it up nicely: "If you don't like apples, try oranges but don't **** all over my apples"). What's amusing here of course is that both perspectives are as entitled as each other ;D

 

It has nothing to do with entitlement. People just fancy PvP that's as close to being about player skill as is possible. If that's a bad thing... welll... I'm not ashamed to say I want a bad thing.

 

It isn't a bad thing though, is it? It's a "bad" thing for people that need the gear to place above everyone else. For everyone who enjoys fair competition... it's not. It's a pretty good thing all around.

 

Oh and regarding gear progression: you've got your PvE gear progression. You've got your gear you can use against bigger and badder bosses. You've got crafting. You've got leveling.

 

I had the joy of playing various DnD games, and mods for Neverwinter Nights etc: arguably the best and most popular PvP mods for those games were balanced mods, where players were limited to particular bands of gear to keep things "balanced". People played them endlessly (a couple being the most played on NWN from my memory). In PvP the progression is your rating against others, how you play against them, how you win and how you lose: you grow as a player because of that. Everything else is fluff.

Edited April 5, 2012 by indelible

[GrandMike]

So you'd play games without gear grinds if they're free...but only gear grinds are worth paying for?

 

Its EQ/WoW syndrome.

 

"I will pay you....but ONLY IF YOU MAKE ME WORK" lol

 

Character progression, sure. Not necessarily gear progression and certainly not via blatant treadmill or Skinner Box grinds. And I sure don't remember D&D being a gear grind, most of the time we weren't even paying attention to the items on our stat sheets, it was more about....playing the game.

 

Yup, we played for fun, items were mostly irrelevant. And "gimped" characters (as 6 int wizards ) were blast to play. Ahh, good days.

Edited April 5, 2012 by GrandMike

[Blistrich]

The truth is the gear you have is directly proportional to the amount of time you spend playing. It has nothing to do with skill at all.

QFT.

 

I am terrible, and yet, I was at the forefront of progression in Warcraft up until LK. Why? Because I was still in university at the time, I was involved in a soft science that required a fraction of my focus, and I wasn't married yet. I could sit there on my leather arse for hours just running Karazhan with my guildies over and over and over again until everyone had reached their minimum gear requirement for the next grindfest.

 

Same went for PvP. Time, not skill, was at the core of success.

 

WARNING: YOU HAVE NOT REACHED THE MINIMUM LEVEL OF % AND + TO DO NEW THINGS. PLEASE RE-DO OLD THINGS AGAIN. THANK YOU FOR YOUR KIND ATTENTION, <INSERT PLAYER NAME HERE>

Edited April 5, 2012 by Blistrich

[NukeMom]

Yup, we played for fun, items were mostly irrelevant. And "gimped" characters (as 6 int wizards ) were blast to play. Ahh, good days.

 

I could just see a D&D campaign that worked like modern "standard" MMO's...

 

DM: Ok, you enter the town. There's a guy standing on the side of the road with boxes full of vorpal swords and +5 plate armor and such.

 

Player: Hm. Ok, well, I'll go talk to him.

 

DM: He says you can have one of his items if you go out and kill boars to the north for 124 hours.

 

Player: ....what?

 

DM: Yep.

 

Player: Ok, whatever. I leave the town to the south.

 

DM: Oh no! South is where the people who already killed boars for 124 hours went! They attack you!

 

Player: Ok, I draw my sword and -

 

DM: <Rolls die> Sorry, one of them already decapitated you with his vorpal sword. You're dead.

 

Player: Wow! This campaign rocks, can I pay you $15 to keep playing?!?

[TUXs]

well, the pve fights so far are extremely easy, i havent had a single fight that was the equivalent to lady vash, archimonde, or yogg saron (and those are just the ones from wow that ive done, not necessarily the hardest ones either).

 

some of those fights tooks months at ~7 hours a week to down him. lady vashj alone took my guild 2 or 3 months to beat.

 

I agree, PvE here is fairly basic. Not as basic as some games, but not nearly as difficult to master as others either. PvP, imo, is always a challenge (or more challenging) because players try different tactics. Not suggesting WZs don't suck, just that PvP is more difficult (here).

Edited April 5, 2012 by TUXs

[GrandMike]

I could just see a D&D campaign that worked like modern "standard" MMO's...

 

DM: Ok, you enter the town. There's a guy standing on the side of the road with boxes full of vorpal swords and +5 plate armor and such.

 

Player: Hm. Ok, well, I'll go talk to him.

 

DM: He says you can have one of his items if you go out and kill boars to the north for 124 hours.

 

Player: ....what?

 

DM: Yep.

 

Player: Ok, whatever. I leave the town to the south.

 

DM: Oh no! South is where the people who already killed boars for 124 hours went! They attack you!

 

Player: Ok, I draw my sword and -

 

DM: <Rolls die> Sorry, one of them already decapitated you with his vorpal sword. You're dead.

 

Player: Wow! This campaign rocks, can I pay you $15 to keep playing?!?

 

Yah lol:

 

here is official module that you have to repeat 50 times, limited to 1/week, pay 60+15/month in the process, and then you can move to next module that you need to repeat 75 times...

 

BEST MMO EVAH! lol

 

And some people actually claim that they played D&D that way

 

Said it before and will repeat it:

 

Gear grinds ruined MMOs.

Edited April 5, 2012 by GrandMike

[maticlandarr]

Its sad to me that now even "pvp"ers prefer a skinner box to actually having fun.