When is jugg dps going to be not just viable, but effective?

[WarSiren]

you said it yoursefl... sorry but maras and snipers are on the top of that 5% everyone else is on the bottom.

 

 

sorry but is a highly skilled Marauder is in a raid it will beat everyone, but marauders are teh hardest thing in game to play correctly. Sorry but what you want is something that is plain dumb, you want to eb top DPS just to be top DPS, you do not want to hear that maras and snipers are designed to be ahead of the other classes by a small amount because they are pures, they are also harder to play then everything else.

 

 

If you want dirt simple DPS that always win go play wow.

 

 

Plans change, remember that and in the MMO world no one is ever top dps class forever. No matter what Zoehler says, I can promise you there will be times when the pure classes fall behind, it happens, may not be the case atm, as no one can properly calculate dps, with out painstaking work, we're all just assuming. (except BW they know) but to assume that just because a class is pure something that it will be tops always is foolish, or very wishful thinking.

[InfamousXIII]

Notice that I don't mention Sorcerer or Mercenary - why do people seem to think Healer offspecs don't deserve a "damage tax" but tank offspecs do? Healer-offspecs are far more effective at healing in a pinch than the "tank classes" are at tanking in a pinch, since DPS stats also buff healing, but are useless for tanking.

 

Every class has interrupts of some type to stop majority to clutch healing and such. Tank skills don't share the same weakness.

[Tryllerik]

Np matter what spec, I dont feel very tanky on my Jugg - and therefor I regret the day I choose him over a marauder which is a better dps, have WAYYY better def Cds.

 

Juggs is good in premade grps else its by far the most boring and not very tanky class ive ever meet in mmos.

[SIDIOUSFAN]

I play a rage speced jugg and if bioware upgrades my damages, I fear people will start crying : nerf !

 

I hate nerfs, I dont want this to happen. Rage damages are fine as they are, I don't want it to be upgraded nor nerfed.

 

To be honest, I think most rage jugs complaining about their damages are people who wear Bioware's gear without changing mods and sophistications. Bioware's itemization is horrible but once you have swapped bad mods and sophistications of your gear for better ones, and once you have enough surge and power, damages are ok.

 

I my opinion it's in the survivability department that jugg needs help, not the dps one.

 

 

 

Edit : I am talking about rage spec here not vengeance. I felt so bad and gimped when I respeced to vengeance that I couldn't play this spec for more that 30 minutes.

Edited March 7, 2012 by SIDIOUSFAN

[Jinxxus]

I am getting annoyed by people saying that certain classes don't or shouldn't be able to match damage done by a 'pure' spec. If you choose a jugganaut because you like the old school single saber style then that is your choce. And if you want to run that class as dps then again that is your choice. The question is why shouldn't a jugganaut dps spec be considered 'pure' and be treated as one. Yes they have more armour so in that case give the medium or light armour class more mitigation therefore equalling it out. If you are paying for a game and having to choose a class that essentially you don't want to play because you want to dps because the outcome is not equal is rediculous.

[Ticara]

if you think a hybrid should out DPS a pure tehn you are in a dream world.

 

 

No, what we think is that a hybrid should have the potential to deal the same amounts of damage as a pure. Crippling the damage output of hybrids to force them to tank/heal is so Classic WoW.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Ticara

[SFC-Lawndart]

No, what we think is that a hybrid should have the potential to deal the same amounts of damage as a pure. Crippling the damage output of hybrids to force them to tank/heal is so Classic WoW.

 

Then you might as well make all the classes the exact same which will become REALLY boring, REALLY fast because you'll be reduced to

 

Lightsabre guy

lightening thrower guy

and

Gun guy

 

Sounds like a hoot right?

 

DPS jugs can do a fair amount of DPS but they shouldn't be even on the same page as a Mara. If you want them to be then you need to allow Mara's to wear heavy armor and give them more damage reducing abilities, otherwise what's the point of the mara class if a jug can do the same dps AND wear heavy armor with more defense and damage mitigation.

 

Mara's pay a price for their DPS by only being allowed to wear medium armor and not equip a shield generator which makes them much MUCH more squishy.

 

Jugs pay a price for being more resilant in combat by doing less dps.

 

It's called balance.

Edited March 7, 2012 by SFC-Lawndart

[ShieldAnvil]

I play a rage speced jugg and if bioware upgrades my damages, I fear people will start crying : nerf !

 

I hate nerfs, I dont want this to happen. Rage damages are fine as they are, I don't want it to be upgraded nor nerfed.

 

To be honest, I think most rage jugs complaining about their damages are people who wear Bioware's gear without changing mods and sophistications. Bioware's itemization is horrible but once you have swapped bad mods and sophistications of your gear for better ones, and once you have enough surge and power, damages are ok.

 

I my opinion it's in the survivability department that jugg needs help, not the dps one.

 

 

 

Edit : I am talking about rage spec here not vengeance. I felt so bad and gimped when I respeced to vengeance that I couldn't play this spec for more that 30 minutes.

 

Yes, that's the sad thing. Jug dps is fine atm but in pvp marauder's that are annihilation spec(almost all) have some of the best defensive cool downs in the game. They have cloak of pain, undying rage (All marauders who are good use it at 20% life and use WZ health med pack to gain 5-6k and have 99% less dmg taken for 5 seconds for the cost of 50% life) and force camo which makes it so they have 100% dmg negation and are able to run away and get health, along with aoe buffs for themselves and others which gives them added speed and a 10-15% damage reduction, 2% self heals on dots which go for around 400 per tick with 200 raid wide ticks on my cousin's PvP rank 65~ marauder and also blood thirst which gives 15% dmg/healing to raid members .

 

What does a jug get as their defensive cool downs? Endure pain which is probably the worst survivability skill in the game if you use it in a pinch and it runs out. As soon as that cd is done, you lose all that health and you get ***** (In PvP) and invincible (only if you spec into it for Immo) and intercede which can be used defensively to run away, to give yourself 20% dmg reduction for 5 seconds and heal you for 8% if you are specced and have the 4 piece dps set bonus for PvP. Oh and taunt/aoe taunt + Guard for spot aoe taunt/guards in pvp which are key in pvp. Some decent survivability cool downs to the "Juggernaut" name would be nice but just having "Plate," or "Heavy" Armor doesn't make up for all the defensive cool downs lost, when you are in your full dps spec.

 

I play both a rank 65 marauder and a 66 PvP Jug and whoever said that the marauder was the hardest dps class to play is full of ****.

Edited March 7, 2012 by ShieldAnvil

[-SWA-]

Then you might as well make all the classes the exact same which will become REALLY boring, REALLY fast because you'll be reduced to

 

Lightsabre guy

lightening thrower guy

and

Gun guy

 

Sounds like a hoot right?

 

DPS jugs can do a fair amount of DPS but they shouldn't be even on the same page as a Mara. If you want them to be then you need to allow Mara's to wear heavy armor and give them more damage reducing abilities, otherwise what's the point of the mara class if a jug can do the same dps AND wear heavy armor with more defense and damage mitigation.

 

Mara's pay a price for their DPS by only being allowed to wear medium armor and not equip a shield generator which makes them much MUCH more squishy.

 

Jugs pay a price for being more resilant in combat by doing less dps.

 

It's called balance.

 

But here's the whole point: Marauders have as many as or MORE defensive abilities than a Juggernaut. My Vengeance Juggernaut isn't more defensible than a marauder in any way. IF I decide to switch to Soresu form to get a bit tougher, my damage plummets like a lead bar. Also why the hell would I use a shield generator as a DPS Jugg?

 

See, that's the point we're trying to get across. We might have the OPTION to play tank, but if we play as DPS, we're in no way or shape tougher or more durable than a DPS marauder. Hence, our DPS should be about on par with yours. Capiche?

 

To summarize: Juggernauts are NOT tougher than marauders when specced for DPS. How hard is this to understand for crying out loud!

 

 

Edit: the only reason I can think of why Marauders do not want Juggernauts to deal as much damage as they, is the fact that they, in spite of their overcompensating usage of two lightsabers, are jealous of our mastery of one

Edited March 7, 2012 by -SWA-

[ShieldAnvil]

But here's the whole point: Marauders have as many as or MORE defensive abilities than a Juggernaut. My Vengeance Juggernaut isn't more defensible than a marauder in any way. IF I decide to switch to Soresu form to get a bit tougher, my damage plummets like a lead bar. Also why the hell would I use a shield generator as a DPS Jugg?

 

See, that's the point we're trying to get across. We might have the OPTION to play tank, but if we play as DPS, we're in no way or shape tougher or more durable than a DPS marauder. Hence, our DPS should be about on par with yours. Capiche?

 

To summarize: Juggernauts are NOT tougher than marauders when specced for DPS. How hard is this to understand for crying out loud!

 

Read my post above broski, I basically put down what you didn't want to type out

[unicornfive]

complaining about low jugg dps when you could have been a marauder is like complaining that your bicycle is slow when you could have had an airplane.

 

So according to you :

Merc isnt dps, he is healer

Sorc isnt dps, he is healer

Assassin isnt dps, he is tank

 

And only mara and sniper are the dps classes in game...

[-SWA-]

Read my post above broski, I basically put down what you didn't want to type out

 

Aye, I was writing my post at the same time as you were, only you posted it faster.

 

And you were right. I was too lazy to give a full summary of a Juggernaut's defensive abilities, few though they are!

Edited March 7, 2012 by -SWA-

[blackdots]

I lol'd throughout this whole thread. Jugg dps is just fine. My jugg is almost always in the top 3 in warzones for dps, and many times, the highest dps. 300k - 400k damage in a huttball warzone, for a warrior, is great.

 

In addition, the operations that decide to take a dps jugg, specifically rage spec, will notice how the trash seems to melt away to the jugg's smashes, while the jugg can still pull great damage on a single target/boss, with 5k+ smash crits, and 3k+ force scream crits, whenever they're off cooldown. (With proper rotation of course).

 

Stack your surge and power, and watch your smashes obliterate

 

True, but Marauders also in many ways have more tanking and survivability than a (say) rage jug.

[SFC-Lawndart]

 

To summarize: Juggernauts are NOT tougher than marauders when specced for DPS. How hard is this to understand for crying out loud!

 

 

 

Really? You're just going to convienently "overlook" the whole heavy armor vs. medium armor thing? You're going to overlook the fact that "if" you wanted to tank, you could switch specs and be the best single target tank in the game? That's the CHOICE Jugs have. Can a marauder do the same?

 

You basically you want to have the ability to be the best single target tank AND the best Melee DPS in one class, right? Obviously not at the same time, but have the ability to at your whim.

 

"My Point" is that if BW were to allow Jugs to DPS equally to a Marauder, then there's no longer a point to the Marauder class. BW will never let that happen because it will make the marauder class completely obsolete.

 

As for understanding your point, I do, actually, understand it quite well. You want a Ford F-250 3/4 ton truck to handle, accelerate, and basically drive like a Ford Mustang BOSS 302 and can't, for the life of you, understand why it shouldn't because they both have 2 doors and 4 wheels.

Edited March 7, 2012 by SFC-Lawndart

[plurra]

Really? You're just going to convienently "overlook" the whole heavy armor vs. medium armor thing? You're going to overlook the fact that "if" you wanted to tank, you could switch specs and be the best single target tank in the game? That's the CHOICE Jugs have. Can a marauder do the same?

 

You basically you want to have the ability to be the best single target tank AND the best Melee DPS in one class, right? Obviously not at the same time, but have the ability to at your whim.

 

"My Point" is that if BW were to allow Jugs to DPS equally to a Marauder, then there's no longer a point to the Marauder class. BW will never let that happen because it will make the marauder class completely obsolete.

 

As for understanding your point, I do, actually, understand it quite well. You want a Ford F-250 3/4 ton truck to handle, accelerate, and basically drive like a Ford Mustang BOSS 302 and can't, for the life of you, understand why it shouldn't because they both have 2 doors and 4 wheels.

Did you just compare the classes in a Sci-Fi computer game to vehicles? That is the most ridiculous comparison I have ever witnessed...

[Elyx]

All this theoretical mumbo jumbo is a waste of time.

 

No one in this thread has even posted REAL NUMBERS to show any deficiency from the jugg side. Those who are posting about mauraders having higher DPS should just stop. Unless you have data to back it up.

 

And the Pure/Vs. hybrid idea is as old as time. Isn't even worth arguing, except to say that once dual specs hit, pures WILL be at a disadvantage. period. dual spec kills class specialization. At that point, I feel that pure classes SHOULD have a slight (read slight) advantage in straight up DPS. But it should be based on skill (mauraders vs BH as an example).

 

However, at this point, anyone who says that mauraders/snipers do more damage then juggs need to post numbers or close their trap. your wasting precious oxygen that should go to more fully thinking individuals

[ShieldAnvil]

http://imageshack.us/f/29/screenshot2012030712252.jpg/

 

565 k HYBRID JUG dmg in voidstar solo queue vs bm premade

here you go for all those juggies.

[blackdots]

Really? You're just going to convienently "overlook" the whole heavy armor vs. medium armor thing? You're going to overlook the fact that "if" you wanted to tank, you could switch specs and be the best single target tank in the game? That's the CHOICE Jugs have. Can a marauder do the same?

 

You basically you want to have the ability to be the best single target tank AND the best Melee DPS in one class, right? Obviously not at the same time, but have the ability to at your whim.

 

"My Point" is that if BW were to allow Jugs to DPS equally to a Marauder, then there's no longer a point to the Marauder class. BW will never let that happen because it will make the marauder class completely obsolete.

 

As for understanding your point, I do, actually, understand it quite well. You want a Ford F-250 3/4 ton truck to handle, accelerate, and basically drive like a Ford Mustang BOSS 302 and can't, for the life of you, understand why it shouldn't because they both have 2 doors and 4 wheels.

 

You're missing the point. It's fine if the Marauder dps spec does significantly more damage, but it shouldn't also be able to tank and survive better than a Jug dps spec. It shouldn't have both.

[Hizoka]

You're missing the point. It's fine if the Marauder dps spec does significantly more damage, but it shouldn't also be able to tank and survive better than a Jug dps spec. It shouldn't have both.

 

its can;t tank, it cannot survive longer. it has 1 more defensive cooldown. I love how people think that cloak of pain is the best thing ever, it is good, however it was something needed to balance the class but because you baddies were not in beta you did not see how bad marauders used to be.

[Durram]

The problem with juggernaut is the fact that because it has a tank spec it is automatically deemed a tank class, even the people who make the game seem to deliberately make classes like this much worse dps wise. Personally i find jugg the most fun class to play as vengenace, its just irritating not be able to get the 2.5k crit medal, I rarely crit over 2k, bit lame.

[RenzoMalice]

run Rage spec. my DPS is retarded in PvE and PvP

[InfamousXIII]

So according to you :

Merc isnt dps, he is healer

Sorc isnt dps, he is healer

Assassin isnt dps, he is tank

 

And only mara and sniper are the dps classes in game...

 

not what im saying at all lol, I dont have any crazy charts so I can only speak from my in game experiences.

 

on my marauder i am hell on the battlefield killin everything.

on my jugg I am unslayable but stuff def dies slower.

 

on my sniper i deal a lot of damage (maybe more than marauder? hard to compare the rifle damage to 2 saber slashy slashy in terms of overall damage)

 

on my powertech i seem to do a lot of damage (pyrotech) and i have utility moves (sticky rocket dart thing and grapple) but still cant compare tot he snipers 3 shot kills.

 

I have no healers but i imagine that operatives (suprise buttsecks spec) do more damage than my jug or pt and the same with sorcs (that one spec with the lightning).

 

classes with tank skills would ideally do less damage to make up for them being more survivable. Its not the same with healers imo because using one clutch heal with no skill points improving it in any way is not going to save your life and is prolly just going to derail your rotation and heat/endergy/ammo.

[KhealThar]

its can;t tank, it cannot survive longer. it has 1 more defensive cooldown. I love how people think that cloak of pain is the best thing ever, it is good, however it was something needed to balance the class but because you baddies were not in beta you did not see how bad marauders used to be.

 

Are you kidding me? Comparing a DPS Jugg survival to a Marauder isn't even the same sport.

 

Marauders have Cloak of pain, a Vanish for a few seconds, sacrifice health to reduce 99% of damage and a 20% accuracy debuff on top of the cd's that Juggs have.

 

 

Marauders may have been bad but they definitely overbuffed them. They're basically Juggernauts now, unleashing an unrelentless onslaught on anyone who dare opposes them.

 

People complain about Sorcerers and Mercs only because there isn't very many good Marauders.

[-SWA-]

Really? You're just going to convienently "overlook" the whole heavy armor vs. medium armor thing? You're going to overlook the fact that "if" you wanted to tank, you could switch specs and be the best single target tank in the game? That's the CHOICE Jugs have. Can a marauder do the same?

 

You basically you want to have the ability to be the best single target tank AND the best Melee DPS in one class, right? Obviously not at the same time, but have the ability to at your whim.

 

"My Point" is that if BW were to allow Jugs to DPS equally to a Marauder, then there's no longer a point to the Marauder class. BW will never let that happen because it will make the marauder class completely obsolete.

 

As for understanding your point, I do, actually, understand it quite well. You want a Ford F-250 3/4 ton truck to handle, accelerate, and basically drive like a Ford Mustang BOSS 302 and can't, for the life of you, understand why it shouldn't because they both have 2 doors and 4 wheels.

 

The difference between medium and heavy armor is marginal at best. I did not specificaly ignore it, and yes, it is a slight advantage, but it is all too often used as argument why the Juggernaut is so much tougher than the Marauder. 5% however, is not that big a deal.

 

And what? Because I can go to the Imperial fleet and change into a tank for money, I am suddenly at an advantage when all I am trying to do is deal damage? How the hell does that compute? The entire tank-tree offers me NO benefit. The fact that I -can- change into it, is somehow a good reason to make my TWO other trees significantly less effective than those of a Marauder?

 

I haven't even taken into account the fact that I have never played the Immortal spec before, so changing to one at level 50 is not suddenly the end-all-be-all thing you make it out to be. Add to that the fact that I have no tanking gear whatsoever, and what kind of advantage is there left for me?

 

And if you ask me what point there is to playing a Marauder when they deal about the same damage as a Juggernaut, here's what I think: before I even knew which class did what in this game, I had already decided I wanted to play a one-saber wielding class. Preferably a warrior. Had the Marauder been that class, I would've played a Marauder, regardless of specs, ultra sick damage, tanking options, armor and what not. Ergo, one could play a Marauder cause the style and classbackground appeals.

 

But, if you still think that the mere fact I have a second option is enough for a significant difference in damage between the Juggernaut and the Marauder, then I am at a loss and can say nothing more than that I heartily disagree with you! I guess we'll have to let BW decide what to do in the end. Cause in the end, even if they were to decide that the Marauder should deal a lot more damage than a DPS juggernaut, I would still play a DPS Juggernaut, not a Tank, not a hybrid, nor a Marauder.

 

Tl;dr: Strong or weak DPS, <3 Juggernauts.

 

P.S. Your car-comparison is completely lost on me, I'm afraid. I'm not particularly interested in cars. I do not even have a driver's license; there has never been a reason for me to get one.

[Hizoka]

run Rage spec. my DPS is retarded in PvE and PvP

 

yep because its terrible... if you ran vig you would do more damage and live longer. Rage is a gimmick spec built to attect people who think smash is everything... you can hit with spash every so often for good damage but EVERYTHING else blows.