Bioware, what are you thinking?

[Harower]

This makes sense

 

 

This game's engame and substance was evolved around re-rolling.

 

Only re-rolling turned out to be fairly terrible

 

So now they have this which now makes the entire point/sauce of this game to be......

 

 

wait what is this game now?

[tekkamansoul]

43 pages? Wow.

 

I think it's nice. I would rather have completely new races, though.

[bmhale]

LOL, nice try but too much fanboi in argument.

I don't lift car off child EVERY 20 MINUTE IRL.

 

I am definitely both a SW and a Bioware fanboy without a doubt (the latter being rather recent since I didn't play any of their games prior to ME2 coming to the PS3).

 

Time is relative in the game, same as the distances that you travel. I'm sure you also don't run several miles, blast a building full of enemies, and then charge onto the next mission without resting, getting more ammo, or other logistical stuff that would be frankly boring to implement into the MMO.

 

Relative to you, your character lives a much shorter life as well (or you see it in fast forward). Most insects only live a few months. If they were sentient enough to tell time, do you think they'd do it in years? So 20 mins to you could very well be 20 hours to him if you must make sense out of the timer that is created for you to understand (not him).

Edited March 17, 2012 by bmhale

[Quintan]

look i love Star Wars and I'm a fanboy but this Bioware game is failing and that's just a fact.

 

You can hate on me if you want I wish the game would succeed just as much as you do but some of us have been around long enough to see and know the signs..

Edited March 17, 2012 by Quintan

[Cancrizans]

1) Never underestimate the power of sampling bias. You think lots of people are concerned because people on the forums are complaining. Most people I know are excited for Legacy and busy leveling Imperial alts.

 

2) You think its nothing like Ellis Island. I think it is... in game we never see the day-to-day population, just the players coming and going. You can choose to think of it however you want. You are simply choosing a way that makes you unhappy...which is a bit crazy and entirely under your control.

 

3) Keep in mind, too, that it is not the center of activity for the whole Republic, just the Republic PLAYERS. Far more business and commerce happens on Coruscant in 10 minutes than could ever happen on the Fleet under any circumstances. The demographics of the population with business on the Fleet (a disproportionate number of Havoc Squad Commanding Officers for example) also undergo a selection bias based on who would pursue those kinds of activities. It just so happens than dissident Chiss and Purebloods who are shunned on the Core Worlds are more likely than others to take up arms against the Empire, so, again, you should expect them in disproportionate numbers on the Fleet compared to on the Core Worlds where most middle class citizens are happily leading their normal lives.

 

I am going to ignore the 5 pages of posts by people who once again only read the original post and didn't bother to read any other part of the thread(wherein myself and others have addressed the issues they lol about multiple times) and respond to you because you actually have something interesting to say about the subject that makes sense.

 

I guess it boils down to the fact that we look at the game from different perspectives. The foundation for your position is that we view the game as a situation where we, the players, are only a very small part of the universal population, and there are many things going on in "the Universe" and many more people than just us. You assert therefore that the Fleets are simply places where large numbers of PLAYERS congregate, not where large numbers of REPUBLIC CITIZENS congregate.

 

I guess this is a totally valid and sound way to view the situation. I won't try and argue that you are wrong because you aren't...it is your choice to view the game this way and it is as good a way as any to view it.

 

My perspective is a bit different I suppose in that, though I do care about a sense of realism in the game, I still view it in a way AS a game...in other words I am concerned with the population of PLAYERS representing something realistic or unrealistic, and I don't tend to take the step to posit a large imaginary population outside of the playerbase that exists "out there" doing stuff.

 

So from my view, the fact that we will have what to me appears to be a much too large number of cross overs doesn't feel right. Your view provides you with a way to explain this phenomenon that makes sense.

 

I am not sure if there is a "right" or "wrong" here, I think it is mainly an issue of the way we look at the game. Perhaps your view is superior in that it allows you to deal with things that I would consider inconsistencies...but personally I can't get past the fact that the cross over races and skills do not "feel right" and regardless of whether they are explainable, are nonetheless examples of lazy development and lack of imagination.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Cancrizans

[Cancrizans]

I would also like to add that though I realize you cannot form a good picture of how many people are for or against something simply by reading a forum thread, there does seem to be an equal number of people in this thread who are against it as there are for it.

[Ardah]

"Blind" miraluka BH with a Jet Pack. It's going to be legendary!

[Bluerodian]

"Blind" miraluka BH with a Jet Pack. It's going to be legendary!

 

Better be sure to crash in to things to make it believable. Thing "Greatest American Hero" level of terrible flying.

[Akirator]

Better be sure to crash in to things to make it believable. Thing "Greatest American Hero" level of terrible flying.

 

And why exactly would they crash into things? Every Miraluka "sees" with the force, its a species thing. Doesn't mean they all have to be Jedi. A Miraluka BH is entirely plausible.

[Bluerodian]

And why exactly would they crash into things? Every Miraluka "sees" with the force, its a species thing. Doesn't mean they all have to be Jedi. A Miraluka BH is entirely plausible.

 

I know that, but it's all about cheap entertainment and giggles.

[IronJelly]

I would also like to add that though I realize you cannot form a good picture of how many people are for or against something simply by reading a forum thread, there does seem to be an equal number of people in this thread who are against it as there are for it.

 

No. A few people against it are more vocal than the rest. similar number of posts in each direction doesn't mean a similar number of unique people are posting.

 

My perspective is a bit different I suppose in that, though I do care about a sense of realism in the game, I still view it in a way AS a game...in other words I am concerned with the population of PLAYERS representing something realistic or unrealistic, and I don't tend to take the step to posit a large imaginary population outside of the playerbase that exists "out there" doing stuff.

 

So from my view, the fact that we will have what to me appears to be a much too large number of cross overs doesn't feel right. Your view provides you with a way to explain this phenomenon that makes sense.

 

You're playing a Star Wars themed game expecting... REALISM?

 

I think you're just a troll who enjoys getting people riled up, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see you with a cross-faction-species toon pretty shortly after the patch.

 

Personally, if I don't like the idea of a Chiss Jedi (for example) then it is no skin off my back to ignore the ones I see. Or engage in the Roleplay part of this RPG, by thinking to myself "Oh, there goes a Jedi with his face painted blue! How cool, he must be entertaining children, or impersonating a Chiss!"

 

The person with the problem is you, and the few people who think like you. We definitely should not be restricted in how we can play our game on the off chance you might happen to be on our server and in the same place as us.

[Cancrizans]

No. A few people against it are more vocal than the rest. similar number of posts in each direction doesn't mean a similar number of unique people are posting.

 

 

 

You're playing a Star Wars themed game expecting... REALISM?

 

I think you're just a troll who enjoys getting people riled up, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see you with a cross-faction-species toon pretty shortly after the patch.

 

Personally, if I don't like the idea of a Chiss Jedi (for example) then it is no skin off my back to ignore the ones I see. Or engage in the Roleplay part of this RPG, by thinking to myself "Oh, there goes a Jedi with his face painted blue! How cool, he must be entertaining children, or impersonating a Chiss!"

 

The person with the problem is you, and the few people who think like you. We definitely should not be restricted in how we can play our game on the off chance you might happen to be on our server and in the same place as us.

 

I think you are the troll. If you think I made this thread and took the time to respond to posts for TWO WEEKS as a method of trolling people, you really need to get a sense of reality.

 

First off, it is not at all the case that there are a variety of posters who are for it and most of the posts by those against are the same people...but to see that you would have actually had to read the thread instead of rolling in here with your meaningless opinion and insults trying to look kewl on the interwebs.

 

Secondly, to assert that simply because the game is set in a fantasy universe that we should not have ANY standards that maintain what is real going by the general background for that fictional world is just plain stupid. So because we are playing a fantasy game anything goes? Wanna have 1920's gangsters do drive bys in Coruscant and see Spiderman swinging from building to building in Corellia? Ya, every fictional world has its OWN standards for reality, and those ought to be respected otherwise the world loses both character and cohesiveness.

 

I don't think it is the players responsibility to have to come up with weird and nonsensical RP solutions like the one you suggested to deal with "content" created by the developers that CLEARLY is not within the standards for the series and CLEARLY was made more in the spirit of taking shortcuts and rolling out lame content just to have something to fluff up the Legacy release notes than because they actually took time and effort to make a quality addition to the game.

 

So you can pretend that you hurt my feelings with your sad little insults, but realize that you are the one looking foolish. And BTW, regarding your sig...I wouldn't go around boasting about your willingness to share your opinions, because if the quoted post is any indication, they are about as meaningful as a 2 year old's opinion of this year's candidates for President. You know what they say about opinions...

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[IronJelly]

I think you are the troll. If you think I made this thread and took the time to respond to posts for TWO WEEKS as a method of trolling people, you really need to get a sense of reality.

 

Nope. I'm the person who thinks he doesn't trust you to tell other people what kind of game they should play. Bioware is competent, IMO. They have been developing games for a while now (have you?) they have the data mining tools, and they are the ones working with Lucas, so they know better than most of us (including you) what is or is not ok within the Star Wars IP.

 

And I still think you may be the troll here. You would have had no idea when you created the thread how long it would last, or how many replies it would generate, so arguing that it lasted two weeks is meaningless to your original intention.

 

You pay Bioware per month to play the game. You, like me, support them. It seems to me that if they're as incompetent as you appear to want everyone else to think, you would lead by example and go ragequit. Oh? You still enjoy the game? Us too, and we'll enjoy the new freedoms we're being allowed quite a bit more, I think.

 

My solution of the player providing his/her own roleplay is perfectly valid. There isn't a way for the developers to predict how people will want to roleplay, so more options are better than less. As you are the one with the problem, it seems reasonable that you could embrace a solution that doesn't affect the rest of us who don't have a problem.

 

And bear in mind that you seem to have no sense of time and scope needed to develop content and get it in the game. They're working as fast as they can while keeping things professional. Not all BW employees are content developers. For a game like this, to make the content for (for example), a new quest, they would need:

1 or more content writers to determine what the quest actually is (gather something, return something, whatever it is

1 or more dialogue writers to make sure that the quest text is understandable.

1 or more character designers to make an interesting character to give the quest to you

1 or more level designers to determine the best place to put the questgiver so the player can find it

1 or more people testing it before it even hits PTS.

 

and I'm probably leaving at least one step out. it takes time and it takes people. Game making isn't this instantaneous magic that you seem to think it is. I understand your misconception, I do. I work in website development. Sometimes I get clients who believe that once I get a framework set up, such as Wordpress or Joomla, that from there, all I need to do is wiggle my fingers and paste their content on top of it and it's suddenly a website. These are people who have at least a little experience using their PC, but not for the same purposes as I have. The parallel here would be you assuming that, since they have the game engine, they must have these great tools to just paste in new content. I'm sure they don't, but it's a mistake that can easily, and understandably be made by people who simply aren't in the industry. You are a consumer, and their intended target audience. I can't fault you for that, and I don't.

 

I do feel though that your baseless insults hold your argument back, and the angrier you get, the more foolish you look. If you were passionate about this topic, you could debate it without attacking me as a person.

 

 

And BTW, regarding your sig...I wouldn't go around boasting about your willingness to share your opinions, because if the quoted post is any indication, they are about as meaningful as a 2 year old's opinion of this year's candidates for President.

 

My signature, unlike yours, is meaningful and useful to the way I handle myself on the forums. It tells the reader quite a bit about me, and the things I may or may not have said in the post above it. It lets them know up front that I am not someone who fools around or jokes, or makes light of a situation, and that I have no problem expressing myself when I'm passionate about a topic, such as this one. I never said my opinion is meaningful. Only that I offer it. This is why there's a handy link that will let someone mute me if they disagree with what I have to say.

Edited March 18, 2012 by IronJelly

[Aedyl]

*snip*

 

Ok, let's just run some #s here, tell me if you think I'm way off. Something like 60% of imperial characters are sith, and 60% of a server population are imperial. So right off the bat, you're only looking at abut a third of the server who even has the POTENTIAL to have 50 pureblood. Let's say 25% of those sith are purebloods (an extremely generous assumption, in my experience), and 80% of THOSE are 50. So, being pretty generous, 7% of a server's population has a 50 pureblood. How many of those do you think are going to switch off their mains to roll a sith pureblood on the opposite faction on the same server? 10% or so? You're looking at 1-2% of republic chars being pureblood. In other words, 0-3 on the fleet at any given time on most servers. The numbers for Chiss will be even smaller.

 

The far bigger issue for your immersion will be the starting worlds. However, that will mostly be a novelty thing, so I would simply suggest not rolling a new character for a couple of weeks after the patch hits, if the immersion is that important to you.

 

From my previous experience in EQ2, a game where the betrayal mechanism allowed the same type of cross-faction race outcomes as the legacy system will, your estimations are pretty solid.

 

I ended up with both a dark elf paladin and a high elf shadowknight in that game. On my server, dark elves made up about 2% of the paladin population (far outnumbered by humans, high elves, barbarians, gnomes, etc...) and high elf shadowknights were so rare that my character was the only one that I ever saw in 4-5 years of heavy play. I'm sure there were others, but the population was so diluted that that character felt truly unique when I played her.

 

Additionally, the barrier to getting a cross-faction class in EQ2 was a relatively long quest line - generally 1 week of play at low levels and about 4-6 hours of play at higher levels. That is far less of a barrier than having to level a character with the correct race and faction to 50 before being able to create a completely new character at level 1 in your desired class/race combination.

 

The biggest difference with the two approaches is that in EQ2, you can keep playing your main as the new cross-faction class. With the legacy system here, you will have to shelve them and start over. Due to that, I would wager the numbers of cross-faction races will be even lower than what was observed in EQ2.

 

In reference to the OP's original argument, he concedes that free will can lead a minority of a race to take a non-traditional route, but he contends that the fleets will be flooded to a point where the cross-faction races will outnumber the traditional races. I think the analysis I quoted above nicely illustrates why that will not happen, and I thought adding my own observations from a different game where this mechanic was available would help add credence to said analysis.

 

The only way I see it potentially going the "slippery slope" route that the OP is concerned about would be a result of people being massively bored/dissatisfied with their existing faction. Since imperials currently outnumber republicans by ~3:1, you could see a bunch of new toons created when the feature goes live. So, there may be an initial surge. Even if that comes to pass, it will die off and normalize over time.

 

Additioinally, I doubt the surge would ever create a majority of cross-faction races because others are now playing correct faction races in order to make their future cross-faction toon. Case in point, I started a Mirialan sage becasue I want a Mirialan assassin in the future.

 

tl:dr - Quoted analysis is valid based upon my experience in another MMORPG where a cross-faction race mechanic existed.

[Pseudofate]

This thread has more dead horses than HBO's Luck.

[Idunhavaname]

You have no idea idea what you're talking about. There's nothing in any Star Wars lore that says members of a race can't belong to a different society.

 

Galactic Empire says hi.

 

Anyway back to topic. What people above me said. Theres a thing called free will. Kinda important to us humans.

[mercenx]

The only race/class combination is the chiss.

 

I can't think of any force sensitive chiss.

 

Edit: I did find an example, but that is just a class example of the expanded universe contradicting itself.

Edited March 18, 2012 by mercenx

[Cancrizans]

Galactic Empire says hi.

 

Anyway back to topic. What people above me said. Theres a thing called free will. Kinda important to us humans.

 

Hehe. Well besides the argument I won't repeat again concerning how incredibly unlikely it is that "free will" would result in the crazy number of Purebloods and Chiss we will see roaming around the Republic Fleet(same holds for Empire), I'd like to give you a little and kindly placed elbow in the side concerning us humans and our so called love of free will.

 

We have become more and more the same, and less and less willing to challenge authority since we got rid of those evil monarchs of old. The only real freedom we've gained is the freedom to buy a greater variety of products.

 

If more people realized that "free will" has never been something that we ever really possessed as a species, but is something we MIGHT possibly work towards if we got our act together and quit being shallow and materialistic, we could one day claim the privileged relationship to free will that your comment claims is a current reality.

 

The truth is, such a reality is truly a galaxy far, far away from out current situation.

[ThePedigree]

 

I can't believe what I'm hearing. Are you seriously inclining having thousands of sith pureblood jedi isn't lorebreaking in any way whatsoever?

 

In a GALAXY? Yes. How many "thousands" of Germans were there Post-WW2 that weren't Nazi's? How about another faction in a RL scenario just on this ONE planet? Granted, the scale is not the same, but the "thousands" you're refering to are going to be diluted across a multitude of servers. And I think you're vastly overestimating how many people might want to be a Pure Blood for serious play other than just for brief humor.

 

What I am saying is that from a lore standpoint, and from a reality standpoint, there is going to be plenty of any given species that are the offspring of parents that sided with one faction that side with another. The Vader/Luke/Leia example is actually spot on.

 

And as far as the Chiss go...for those that have dabbled into the EU...the Chiss, long allies with the Galactic Empire, flipped sides to the New Republic post ROTJ, with splinters still throwing in with the Imperial Remnant. Yet another example...your race does not dictate your affiliation. It could increase your likelihood due to cultural upbringing, but it does not rob you of your free will.

 

 

Relative to you, your character lives a much shorter life as well (or you see it in fast forward). Most insects only live a few months. If they were sentient enough to tell time, do you think they'd do it in years? So 20 mins to you could very well be 20 hours to him if you must make sense out of the timer that is created for you to understand (not him).

 

This is spot on too. Another example would be how we can punch in the coordinates to a planet within seconds (this usually takes a few mins to calculate in-universe) and jump to that location faster than it takes to run to the ship exit. In-universe, the majority of the jumps still take hours/days. Time is not elapsing in the game in the same rate as it is for us in real life. What you might have done in 20 mins could have taken your character all day to accomplish.

Edited March 19, 2012 by ThePedigree