Harnessed Darkness\Shadows - The most OP talent in the game

[Pashgan]

Darkness spec with BM/Rakata DPS suit - and I've never seen more than 1.2k damage per tick.

 

8k damage for that "spell" is some kind of witchery and black magic. And probably half-naked noob as target.

[Hethroin]

Let's not whine about other classes for now since everyone will have a sob story about how they were two shotted by someone else.

 

Stun is generally used early in the fight so due to the time need to set up HD stacks you'll generally already be stunned. If you're against some hypothetical flawless opponent who knows your every move, he could time his stun to stop virtually any burst DPS tactic. But yes this is why you should use up the HD stacks at 2 instead of 3, because it takes a lot of effort to setup a third stack and it's not worth risk losing the 3 stacks and the extra Force unless you need the healing to survive.

 

In pretty much every situation you can do a 3 stack HD, you can instead do 2X2 stacks and it does more total damage. 3 stacks makes interesting videos but that's about it.

 

Note that if a melee avoided by FL by running away, you already won the fight since no melee can possibly out DPS a Darkness Assassin from range.

 

Awesome.

 

So against people that open every fight with a stun, maybe 2 stuns to fill my resolve asap, and do not have any damage mitigation what-so-ever I can pop my DPS adrenals and cooldowns to deal a massive 6k damage over 3 seconds.

 

The comment that you called a whine, and thus dismissed, was a comparison to put you in perspective of what burst damage in this game is. Dealing 6k over 3 seconds is NOT "good burst', it's barely "decent sustained"; one 2-second cast heal covers it almost completely.

 

12 points Balance with no other points spent, using the same gear/adrenal/relic and spamming Double Strike will deal 6k damage to the same target in the same 3 seconds. Nerf Double Strike?

[Grubfist]

I agree whole-heartedly! My damage output sucks, and I am totally fine with it. But all that talk about nerfing my already sucky damage is, well, quite ridiculous.

 

I think it's more that they have issues with a tank spec doing respectable damage, as that isn't its job.

 

My dpsers that can't get the medals aren't bad dpsers, they're just a flurry of light hits.

[Antipathize]

The reason people complain about shadow/assassin is because they are fighting them on their terms. 1v1 is our playground. Do you realize in pve the tank holds the strongest mobs at bay, because the dps can't withstand high-burst or sustained damage well? Why would it be different in pvp?

 

I can't touch a healer that knows what it's doing, but dps are easy because they have lower pools of health and less resistances, so my meager damage whittles them down.

 

Other tank fights could go either way, and takes too long to bother with anyway.

 

The people that complain about shadows/sins are likely dps and not fighting the right classes. You are scissors, tanks are rock and healers paper.

[Krytycal]

Your tank can't get 2.5k damage in one hit? Cool. Neither can several of my dps.

 

Not every class gets big hits.

 

Which specifically? I've played DPS sin, sorc, merc, marauder and powertech and all of them have abilities that hit for over 2.5K.

[Astarica]

I've had 3 stack HD fry someone for 250 a tick (bubbled Powertech) and I also have it fry someone for 2500 a tick too.

 

A two stack HD does basically 3000 tooltip damage. It takes 2 GCDs and its 30 Force cost is roughly equivalent of 16 Heat/Energy as a comparison (no obvious conversion to Rage) and effectively a cooldown of 6s. We'll work from just tooltip damage since any buff/relic/adrenal modifies tooltip damage roughly equally across all classes. So what 2 GCD attack can you find that does 3000 tooltip damage? Tracer + HSM? That'll generally still fall short of 3K tooltip and it's 32 Heat and longer cooldown (HSM = 15s). It's not fair to assign all the DPS to HD (since you've to use lesser attacks to set it up), but when it's ready (2 stacks), I really can't think of anything that does 3K tooltip damage with so little cost, and it's not exactly hard to hit 2 stacks. Is it overpowered? Probably, but not necessarily more than Tracer Missiles.

[Cyannez]

I agree whole-heartedly! My damage output sucks, and I am totally fine with it. But all that talk about nerfing my already sucky damage is, well, quite ridiculous.

 

It's not about your tank. Why would you use tank gear in pvp is beyond me... but hey it's your call. It's about going darkness in full dps gear. Or even better: in survivor gear with full dps enh/mods for the jucy set bonus. Then you get nice 4k crits on shock when you pop your relic / adrenal / reck. And then you discover that you are pretty tanky compared to other "dps" classes while doing a ******** of sustained dmg with a bit of burst.

 

There should somehow nerf the dmg output of that spec while buffing the survivability of deception/madness.

[Grubfist]

Which specifically? I've played DPS sin, sorc, merc, marauder and powertech and all of them have abilities that hit for over 2.5K.

 

my sage as balance could get 2.5k, but very rarely. It took a particularly high Force in Balance crit (Death Field equivalent). My Tactics vanguard has never come close, but he only just hit 50 (but he never came close on lower levels or same levels etc with Bolster while leveling in pvp)

[cycao]

It's not about your tank. Why would you use tank gear in pvp is beyond me... but hey it's your call. It's about going darkness in full dps gear. Or even better: in survivor gear with full dps enh/mods for the jucy set bonus. Then you get nice 4k crits on shock when you pop your relic / adrenal / reck. And then you discover that you are pretty tanky compared to other "dps" classes while doing a ******** of sustained dmg with a bit of burst.

 

There should somehow nerf the dmg output of that spec while buffing the survivability of deception/madness.

 

yeah people who know what they are doing are killing this game

[KaL_InvictuS]

I think it's more that they have issues with a tank spec doing respectable damage, as that isn't its job.

 

My dpsers that can't get the medals aren't bad dpsers, they're just a flurry of light hits.

 

 

I wouldn't exactly call 400 damage per hit "respectable", but anyway

 

Especially when that "hit" also comes from using an attack skill that happens to consume about a third of my tiny force pool every time I use it.

 

So, as a PVPing Assassin tank my shield doesn't mitigate all damage types, which means that I can get pretty much MAULED by most classes (I've seen BHs using tracer missile on me, and my health dropped to 10-15% in 5 seconds), and I also do the kind of damage I mentioned above. And there are people that say that I am OP.

 

Well I don't really like to use that terminology, but seriously, L2P.

[Paganini]

Ehh the mitigation shadow tanks have is trash. Plus our itemization is terrible. We get a bunch of crit when one of our main abilities has an auto crit function built into it...

[Sookster]

Immortal spec juggs, even in dps gear, are far more survivable than kinetic shadows. Therein lies the tradeoff.

 

Not really. I have both a jugg and assassin, my assassin lives longer and puts out better damage despite having slightly lower gear than my jugg (jugg has 3/4 champ, rest cent). DPS gear for jugg is garbage, I have to reslot the enhancers to get rid of the low endurance mods.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Sookster

[Grubfist]

I wouldn't exactly call 400 damage per hit "respectable", but anyway

 

Especially when that "hit" also comes from using an attack skill that happens to consume about a third of my tiny force pool every time I use it.

 

So, as a PVPing Assassin tank my shield doesn't mitigate all damage types, which means that I can get pretty much MAULED by most classes (I've seen BHs using tracer missile on me, and my health dropped to 10-15% in 5 seconds), and I also do the kind of damage I mentioned above. And there are people that say that I am OP.

 

Well I don't really like to use that terminology, but seriously, L2P.

 

Use Resilience/dot removal thingy.

 

It makes you immune to tech effects.

 

Clears all your tracer stacks and makes you take no damage from tracer missile and most of it's followups. And you can shield Unload, which you can't resist with resilience.

 

Just giving a tip.

 

I'm not trying to prove anything, just trying to clarify what people are saying.

 

They aren't saying your damage is too much, they're saying you having damage as a tank is too much. They don't want you to have both.

 

Whether or not that opinion is true is another matter I have little knowledge on.

[Krytycal]

my sage as balance could get 2.5k, but very rarely. It took a particularly high Force in Balance crit (Death Field equivalent). My Tactics vanguard has never come close, but he only just hit 50 (but he never came close on lower levels or same levels etc with Bolster while leveling in pvp)

 

Were you geared and using adrenal/relics/recklessness? I've gotten 3.5k crits with Death Field, and it's relatively easy to hit for over 2.5k.

 

Tactics/AP is pretty bad as far as burst goes, but if you pick any of the bottom talents for Railshot you should be able to hit for over 2.5k with gear/relics/adrenal Railshot, I've hit sorcs for up to 3k with Railshot on my Shield tech PT.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Krytycal

[Grubfist]

Were you geared and using adrenal/relics/recklessness? I've gotten 3.5k crits with Death Field, and it's relatively easy to hit for over 2.5k.

 

Tactics/AP is pretty bad as far as burst goes, but if you pick any of the bottom talents for Railshot you should be able to hit for over 2.5k with gear/relics/adrenal Railshot, I've hit sorcs for up to 3k with Railshot on my Shield tech PT.

 

Was in half pve gear with like 6 pieces mixed champ/cent gear, no stim, no adrenal, but I think I popped my recklessness cooldown (force potency)

 

It wasn't too long after hitting 50. I rolled him as a healer, went balance a bit when our warzones kept having too many healers.

[Cyannez]

yeah people who know what they are doing are killing this game

 

Yeah being able to self heal for 50K+ (i even got the 75k healing medal a few times) while doing 300k dmg with ease, being able to kill anything 1v1 (some classes like snipers, mercenary and sorcs having no chance whatsoever), having 7k armor and usually getting my top hit at 3.5k-4k is a bit too much. Oh let's not forget about guard which we lose nothing to use since we stay in dark charge anyway.

 

Yes i find that being able to do all that at the same time is a bit over the top. I would sincerely prefer for them to nerf darkness and buff the utility / survivability of deception.

 

It's not killing the game, but it's one of the bad parts considering that 1 month ago we were 3 assassins on the server and now there are at least 4 in every wz. People tend to re-roll to whatever is "strong" at that time.

[Grubfist]

Yeah being able to self heal for 50K+ (i even got the 75k healing medal a few times) while doing 300k dmg with ease, being able to kill anything 1v1 (some classes like snipers, mercenary and sorcs having no chance whatsoever), having 7k armor and usually getting my top hit at 3.5k-4k is a bit too much. Oh let's not forget about guard which we lose nothing to use since we stay in dark charge anyway.

 

Yes i find that being able to do all that at the same time is a bit over the top. I would sincerely prefer for them to nerf darkness and buff the utility / survivability of deception.

 

It's not killing the game, but it's one of the bad parts considering that 1 month ago we were 3 assassins on the server and now there are at least 4 in every wz. People tend to re-roll to whatever is "strong" at that time.

 

My sentinel friend has amazing survivability, does 450k+ damage and 90k healing very often in long matches.

 

I'll be recording him soon, got fraps recently.

[cycao]

Yeah being able to self heal for 50K+ (i even got the 75k healing medal a few times) while doing 300k dmg with ease, being able to kill anything 1v1 (some classes like snipers, mercenary and sorcs having no chance whatsoever), having 7k armor and usually getting my top hit at 3.5k-4k is a bit too much. Oh let's not forget about guard which we lose nothing to use since we stay in dark charge anyway.

 

Yes i find that being able to do all that at the same time is a bit over the top. I would sincerely prefer for them to nerf darkness and buff the utility / survivability of deception.

 

It's not killing the game, but it's one of the bad parts considering that 1 month ago we were 3 assassins on the server and now there are at least 4 in every wz. People tend to re-roll to whatever is "strong" at that time.

 

yeah but is every single darkness 'sin doing this? I have been playing this spec since early access and i know how to play it very well. I myself use defensive relics and adrenals but that fits my playstyle. I have more survivor than stalker so im not seeing the big numbers but again that fits my play style. I have seen other darkness do this damage but not to me. When i see them building up stacks i dont let them get the attack off, or at least not all 4 ticks.

 

I agree with you that more and more players are rolling this class for all the reasons you have listed, which sucks because also as you listed this was not the case a month ago. I love this build and have never been a fan of deception or madness( I did do the ole hybrid build but we all know that was nerfed to the ground. If they are to change up my build again they better buff the shyt out of deception or madness.

[FalmeseReb]

I can do 8-10k (~5k of that being aoe) burst on my focus guard in 2 gcds if blade storm crits.

I dont think shadow tank is OP.

Edited March 2, 2012 by FalmeseReb

[Vember]

Yeah being able to self heal for 50K+ (i even got the 75k healing medal a few times) while doing 300k dmg with ease, being able to kill anything 1v1 (some classes like snipers, mercenary and sorcs having no chance whatsoever), having 7k armor and usually getting my top hit at 3.5k-4k is a bit too much. Oh let's not forget about guard which we lose nothing to use since we stay in dark charge anyway.

 

 

I can get higher healing and damage numbers than that on my marauder, and kill anything 1v1. Plus my oh **** cooldowns are far better than shadow.

 

 

OMG NERF!!!11one!!

 

Althougth, kc shadows and darkness sins are my toughest fights

[WutsInAName]

Complaining about a tank spec'd and dmg. WHA!?!!

 

5% flat dmg from stance. Yea I suppose stats have nothing to do with it cause my sinTank rolls with no crit no pwr nor surge, Im stuck with def, shield, and absorb. HUGE!!! damage difference. let me say that again HUGE!!!!.

 

Sure i could roll with no tank gear in a tank spec but that is just stupidity.

 

 

 

Troll or just really bad player...taking all bets!

[Cyannez]

I know that marauders are capable of that. But let me know when a marauder brings any utility to hes team compared to a sin. Perma guard+taunts, aoe slow, debuffs and a grip.

 

Im not saying marauders are a bad class, not by far. When played by a good player and with decent gear they are one of the best classes right now. Somewhere in the top 3. And tbh annihilation marauders are the only thing that really really gives me trouble in a 1v1. I'm just saying that a spec with so much "staying" power and utility as darkness shouldn't bring that much dmg to the table. It's a tanking spec after all. It shouldn't allow you to fight for the top places on the dmg meters.

 

I'm not campaigning for a darkness nerf. I just think maybe they should give them a bit more "tankiness" while reducing their dmg potential. Something like some better defensive cooldown somewhere high in the tree instead of that pos darkward.

 

The sad part tho is that besides darkness we really don't have anything else going for us. Both deception and madness are pos when you actually run into people who have a clue and focus you and keep guard / taunt for their squishies.

 

PS: a decent part of a marauders healing is done to the party. Therefor not very useful to hes survivability. All the healing a sin does is only to himself. It's the same concept as padding the dps meters with aoe vs single target.

 

Hihi and to the guy above: do you really play a sin? Dark charge reduces melee dmg bonus by 5%. That's trash and erm... that's all. Too bad we rely on trash so much to do our burst/dmg.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Cyannez

[Rotm]

Tank stance PT/Vanguard in dps gear can also burst 8k+ in a 3 sec window with sticky grenade > stockstrike > impact bolt. With the stockstrike boosting tank build base crit rates of 60% and 45% on the two latter abilities are quite possible before adding the 25% activated crit buff. Tanks aren't useless in swtor, move along.

[Hethroin]

Yeah being able to self heal for 50K+ (i even got the 75k healing medal a few times) while doing 300k dmg with ease, being able to kill anything 1v1 (some classes like snipers, mercenary and sorcs having no chance whatsoever), having 7k armor and usually getting my top hit at 3.5k-4k is a bit too much. Oh let's not forget about guard which we lose nothing to use since we stay in dark charge anyway.

 

Yes i find that being able to do all that at the same time is a bit over the top. I would sincerely prefer for them to nerf darkness and buff the utility / survivability of deception.

 

It's not killing the game, but it's one of the bad parts considering that 1 month ago we were 3 assassins on the server and now there are at least 4 in every wz. People tend to re-roll to whatever is "strong" at that time.

 

Though I somewhat agree with your conclusion I disagree with your "number at the end of a war zone" argument for it.

 

The 3 ranged DPS classes you listed also have the "auto lose" feature turned on for the Vanguard, Sentinel and Scoundrel. This dynamic is not unique to this game. MDPS will eat RDPS one on one. The "creezy' damage numbers you list are a result of spamming Slow Time in crowded corridors on Voidstar. This damage doesn't kill anyone, and the only thing it has to do with this thread is that Slow Time gives you 1 stack of Darkness.

 

Sorcs, Ops, and Mercs can and many times do produce similar damage and healing numbers.

 

If a nerf is needed it is not in the damage component of Harnessed Shadows. I would be on board with a HS healing nerf, but nothing else. I do not believe that a tank spec should have access to that much self healing.

 

I know that marauders are capable of that. But let me know when a marauder brings any utility to hes team compared to a sin. Perma guard+taunts, aoe slow, debuffs and a grip.

 

Funny you should mention that. I recently grouped with a sentinel speced for perma speed with incoming damage reduction. We held a 3-cap on Alderaan, then proceeded to 6-0 a huttball within 2 minutes, and then capped the last point on Voidstar with 5 minutes left on the clock.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Hethroin

[Vember]

I know that marauders are capable of that. But let me know when a marauder brings any utility to hes team compared to a sin. Perma guard+taunts, aoe slow, debuffs and a grip.

 

Im not saying marauders are a bad class, not by far. When played by a good player and with decent gear they are one of the best classes right now. Somewhere in the top 3. And tbh annihilation marauders are the only thing that really really gives me trouble in a 1v1. I'm just saying that a spec with so much "staying" power and utility as darkness shouldn't bring that much dmg to the table. It's a tanking spec after all. It shouldn't allow you to fight for the top places on the dmg meters.

 

I'm not campaigning for a darkness nerf. I just think maybe they should give them a bit more "tankiness" while reducing their dmg potential. Something like some better defensive cooldown somewhere high in the tree instead of that pos darkward.

 

The sad part tho is that besides darkness we really don't have anything else going for us. Both deception and madness are pos when you actually run into people who have a clue and focus you and keep guard / taunt for their squishies.

 

PS: a decent part of a marauders healing is done to the party. Therefor not very useful to hes survivability. All the healing a sin does is only to himself. It's the same concept as padding the dps meters with aoe vs single target.

 

Hihi and to the guy above: do you really play a sin? Dark charge reduces melee dmg bonus by 5%. That's trash and erm... that's all. Too bad we rely on trash so much to do our burst/dmg.

 

These numbers are meaningless. I can get high numbers on warzone charts because I have more uptime since I dont' die as much as regular dps, means nothing at all. As for utility, you even mention it yourself - marauders do partywide healing, not just self healing, they have aoe mez and 80% partywide speed buff. Lets not nitpick here, both are excellent classes, but calling for nerfs because of what you see on warzone scoreboards is nothing short of ridiculous.